TGO

I pee with my feet in a stance that gets my body in line with my natural point of aim. I'm not kidding.

Be easier to just figure out how much time I'm not thinking bout shooting.

What happened to the old one?

Thanks for putting this out B-Rad! The plan is to design COF so that equal amount of standing loads occur. 6 major will probably load more total but want there to be no additional forced standing loads. I bet I'm going to do better with the major this time. We shall see!

IPSC 101 match this thursday at Rio Salado is apparently 6 round neutral, although apparently by accident. Scott said it just turned out that way after he designed the COF. If you are in PHX area come on out. I'm going to try to shoot both 8 minor and 6 major to see what happens on neutral COF. Go to Riopractical.com for info.

For those of you in in the PHX Area, Scott Durkin's IPSC 101 match this thursday is 6 round neutral (he says just by coincidence, didn't intend it to be). I figure a good chance to test 6 major v 8 minor on a more level COF than our last experiment. We can't do the Outlaw Revo Match after Steve's Match as it is cancelled due to the 3 gun. Go to Riopractical.com for info.

Agreed! That was the hard part, not the reloading, although that was also amazing. Since I'm ambidextrous, maybe I should start shooting left handed?

G Gotta be getting close!!

Ya, unfortunately, getting really fast creates a couple issues that are detrimental to higher levels of precision like PPC or Bianchi. I know, I'm struggling with bullseye, but probably not where you'd imagine. I'm OK at the 50 but struggle BIG TIME at timed and rapid!! That makes no sense! Oh well, we all fight our little wars..... Enjoyed the conversation.

Much of what I think the difference between watching and not watching the front sight is follow through. It's hard to develope visual patience when you aren't seeing and waiting for the front sight to lift. If your shooting without follow through an error is introduced that can be deminished shooting at close targets or if you have developed a very good index (auto pilot) from years of shooting. That index allows you to start to aquire the next target before the current shot is completed. The faster and better quality trigger pull aid the index so the sights aren't pulled off target for the fraction of a second that the focus is now placed on the next target. I quess I'm comming from the direction of the new shooter that doesn't have any fundamentals. When I started I wanted to become a good shooter so I started shooting USPSA and PPC. I was slow at USPSA but shot all A's and was done shooting the 2 min 45 sec PPC sections in 30 sec. Warren Moore helped me a lot to work on fundamentals, and I started slowing down shooting PPC feeling the trigger on each shot and watching and waiting for the front sight to lift. I utilized the time better and my quality went way up. I started shooting USPSA faster and doing better as well but I stopped USPSA to shoot Action Pistol and PPC (to many time conflicts). I'm thinking of comming back to USPSA and shooting a 627 in Limited 10 this summer after the Cup. For myself I think I'm going to try to stay with the front sight and try to get more speed from doing the things inbetween the shots sooner. I think after a certain time I will find a balance that takes away some follow through but I will still have that skill set when needed. While I understand what you are saying, please understand I have little or no follow through. In the context of speed shooting, I certainly have no forced or conscious effort put towards having follow through. In fact, I train hard to not have excess follow through to the degree that I hope I have none. This is one of the reason's I struggle with Bullseye. Once the bullet has left the barrel I no longer control it. Any further effort at that time should be in preparation for the next event. You will not force follow through when you learn to get the shot off as soon as alignment occurs. When you are very good you will shoot without causing the gun to go out of alignment. Trying to create too much follow through will only make you slow. As far as visual patience, I focus on making the gun motionless, but only to the degree that I see the sight picture well enough to insure the shot will hit in the area desired. I am working and area, not a specific spot on the target in most instances. The size of this area is what determines the accuracy needed for the shot. At Bianchi I have a relatively small area to hit, in IPSC it is larger, which allows me to be faster. Coming from Bullseye and Bianchi, you will struggle with how little you need to see and hesitate to be fast. Most describe this as out of control. It is that level of control that a shooter attains that separates the scores. Slow and accurate to the extent that the clock times aren't relative is no better than fast with misses. The factor is the factor. While most would not agree it should not be this way, it often is! I personally wish missing was a bigger penalty. Others wish it were less. This is why you must understand the scoring system well enough to know when going fast at the sake of points is preferable to slow and accurate. As I said before, it ain't lack of aiming that causes speed to occur. Quite the opposite actually. We often focus on a single thing as our mantra to keep ourselves in control. That doesn't mean you will score well as control is a curious subject when it comes to score. At Bianchi and for sure bullseye you can consciously think through every detail most of the time and still do well. For IPSC there's just too much going on too quickly to try and control all elements that way. I suggest we all get rid of the notion that we must have large amounts of follow through. By nature we tend to overdue anything we emphasize. This is what causes excess hesitation to occur after a shot. You may witness the sights moving from a shot, but to see them well enough before the next shot is generally under stressed. May be some semantics in this, but I wanted to be clear. As for the 627 in L10, Hopefully you will get a chance in the not too distant future to shoot that 8 shooter in Revolver division where it belongs.

I'm not so sure? I've seen no bullseye shooter, at least a good one become truly fast. Bullseye is terrible training for IPSC and IPSC shooting is the most useless skill set a bullseye shooter could ever want to develop. One requires absolute precision at the cost of any real speed and the other penalizes slowness so much that missing fast is preferable. The concept that you can just choose not to focus on the front sight and that will result in speed is an urban legend. Shooting fast doesn't mean not seeing the sight, sights, or aiming. It just requires you to do it quickly which normally means doing as little of it as you can get by with to save time. Focusing on the front sight, depending on what you mean does not cause a shooter to be slow. Some of this might be getting a little confusing. I apologize. Not sure how calling shots and developing a reliable index plays into all this yet. That would make an interesting discussion of it's own! The things I wrote have little to do with the experience level of the shooter. They have to do with skill level. Any shooter will have to perform the balancing act of speed versus accuracy in the correct ratios to be good as an IPSC shooter. Or a Bianchi shooter. Or a bullseye shooter. Or cowboy fast draw shooter, etc. The balance point must be achieved but is not fixed. Mental focus and mistakes are regularly blamed for failure where lack of skill should be. What is working as a mental focus point may vary, but the physical skills are pretty well defined and somewhat inflexible. They are finite and easy to identify. Just hard to do!! Moral of the story; get better and it gets easier!! In my experience, only a couple shooters who started out as and became good precision shooters ever figured out how to let go of conscience control to the degree that they ever become good speed shooters. Brian is the only one that became top level, who I know. The same is true in reverse. I've known few shooters who came up shooting the fast disciplines that became very good precision shooters. Doug Koenig is one of them. I consider the Bianchi cup to be in the middle. It is a curious event as it is too fast for the precision guys and too accurate for the speed guys, as a rule. The nearest discipline to it is PPC. Many of those shooters cross over successfully. Interesting is that Phil Hemphill was a PPC national champion, did very well at Bianchi and is a National champion in bullseye now. IPSC is a little out of his wheelhouse but he has the other side covered pretty well from middle over. As speed shooters crossing over go, I definitely came from the shoot fast and hope for the best side of things and decided to develop enough precision to be effective at the Bianchi Cup. Bullseye, although I am trying, is a long ways out of my wheelhouse. And my scores show that. This has little to do with aiming or looking at the sights. I have found it to be more of an issue of patience and trying to solve a problem in a manner that can't be achieved with the tools applied. I come from the side of the tracks that solves problems to a large degree by application of speed. This can't solve my bullseye dilemma. And it isn't directly about slowing down. But that's another discussion. So, the thoughts I previously posted are still accurate as far as I can tell. Then again, someone will disagree. I'm a lot off subject here, but when I gets to ramblin' I just can't stop!! Again, do not limit your focus to a single item, it ain't that simple. If it was then everyone would be better by doing that. All good shots are good aimers but not all good aimers are good shots. I love that kind of stuff.

Quit trying to visually focus on only the front sight, this is a common mistake. See everything having to do with the shot and see clearer the element most important to the quality of shot you are trying to shoot. You do not have to see the sights clearly if you are shooting fast and or at close targets. Remember, easy targets are only easy if you are going slow and hard targets are only hard if you are going fast. The process of trying to always see too much clarity in the front sight will only cause you to stop aiming and not see the other elements of the sight picture. Learning to operate the trigger fast is necessary to shoot fast (obviously), and is a highly underdeveloped skill for many. Aiming is more important than looking at the front sight. At the beginning you may simplify the process by emphasizing one third of the items involved in, but at some point you are going to have to move on from that fixation. You should arrive at a point as your skill develops where you see the sights but do not have to over emphasize looking for them, especially just the front. Most shooters have been relentlessly drilled to the "focus on the front sight thing" so much that they now believe it should forever be there mantra and only focal point. This will always limit your speed and accuracy. As far as seeing and keeping in sharp focus the sights during the recoil cycle, few if anyone can do this with a gun that has much vertical movement in recoil. I mean by this that they are not able to track the sights during recoil well enough to actually keep the center of focus on the sight. Your eye doesn't move fast enough. Nor would you want it constantly being moved out of alignment with the target. Fuzzy sights and a clear target are sometimes better. This will be hard for some to understand and for many more to accept. That's OK, many viewpoints are being expressed and mine is only one, albeit based on over thirty years of intense study and training on the subject. One truth: Do not search for or accept as gospel a single trick to always focus on other than Skill, confidence and experience. If you do you will be missing something that you oughta be seeing or feeling and your performance will always be lacking......

Mike, just came from Frank Glenn, had him install trigger stop on the newest 625. Watch out sucka!!!

I'm way too simple to understand all that data. Did I still shoot better with the minor gun?

OK, Now I know why these guys don't want the 8 shooters! That's pretty amazing... If I could load like that I'd want 4 shooters required. Amazing!! I may have to chamfer the chambers in my cylinders now.....

Hi Doug, what are you offering for revolver specific ammo?

Wish I was not so far away - sounds like y'all had a great time. Next time try a 6 neutral match. I think you'll find the competition even tighter. You could even let the SS guys in on the action. Screw those bottom feeders! I want them to come out, but with a revolver, not an auto!!!!!

I hope we (real revolver shooters) sell this thing out so we do not have a bunch of low life bottom feeders hang around another day after SS to crash our party! Children of the wheel unite!! BTW, It's only 3 months away?

I think Scott Shepherd was open also? Thanks for all the work B-Rad, I know it turned into a lot more time and effort for you than we anticipated! I'm really happy with the turnout. As far as the minor 8 versus major 6 question, the results suggest in this match minor option was best. This is no shocker as this cof was never intended to be 6 shot neutral. It wasn't bad, but I only did 1 standing load with the 8 shot, because I missed a popper, same as one of my standing loads for the 6 shooter. But, the telling difference were the 2 necessary standing loads with the 6 that I didn't have with the 8. For me that's at least 2-3 seconds each. I also had to shoot 1 extra position with the 6 shooter that I did not with the 8. these were the telling differences in the match. Luckily the classifier was a 6 shot affair, but even then I had to be more cautious with the major as I did not have the two security rounds of the minor. Across the board, I never had an extra shot in either setup that didn't cause an extra load, just was able to shoot better sequences and do less total loads with the 8 shooter. Points, oddly enough were about the same between guns? This suggests I shot more controlled and Accurately with the minor. I can tell you I do not think I would shoot minor just to have the extra rounds If that didn't save me doing standing loads. That I may do a load or two more on the move I might absorb to get better points. Would depend on the difficulty of the shots and the ease of availability of the A zone. In an all steel match or one that saves standing loads, no question I'd shoot minor. Either way I'm practicing with minor to save the wear and tear on me and the gun. As a test to see how it runs and is received by the shooters, I think we ought to consider doing the next one as 6 shot friendly. To me that means not to control the total number of loads required by either capacity, but to limit the number of forced standing reloads to the same for both capacities. Just have to pay attention to the setup. I think more clubs ought to try the match after the match, revolver division only with the outlaw rules. It appears it may appeal to the larger than USPSA revo crowd? Expect more opinions soon. Did I mention this whole thing was a lot of fun?

Well, the great experiment is over and went better than expected! Brad will need to explain the results as to who shot what. I'm not really sure which scores were 8 shooters or open or 6 minor. The obvious fact though is that we had a fantastic turnout! IDPA, ICORE and USPSA shooters were in attendance. There can be no doubt that shooters want to compete in Revolver division in the Phoenix area. I kinda feel the big turnout was due to interest in the experiment drummed up through this forum. Also, having the afternoon be a revo only match, you knew you weren't shooting against other than revolvers. Maybe the most important thing for the division to flourish is to have Revo only matches? All we did was shoot the exact same match, no changes that was fired in the morning. When we told the morning match organizers they could leave and we'd tear down the stages and get the scoring done for our match, they were happy to oblige! Now, we will do this a couple more times and see if it maintains it's participation.

That's exactly what we are doing this weekend. It is Steve Leach's normal monthly USPSA event at which we are trying to get all our revolver shooters to shoot a USPSA legal gun and enter in Revolver division. We have a few who normally shoot in L10 with 8 shooters because of non production legal holsters and they do not want to load after 6.In the afternoon we will shoot the same match, no changes, with an 8 shooter. Hopefully we will have lots of otherwise USPSA legal entrees and probably a few open 8 shooters. The purpose is to test whether the 8 minor or the 6 major will be better. Now we know it is only one match, and I expect it too be very much 8 round favorable, but I'm looking to see what a difference it may have. I'll shoot both guns. Another interesting item will be how many shooters will show up to shoot which match. That may be more important than the 6V8 thing. If we get as I suspect many more in the afternoon, it may point out something I have been feeling; that many shooters (including myself) would rather not shoot revolver in a match against mostly shooters in other divisions, and that more shooters want to use the 8 minor option. I think in a revolver only match that allows 8 shooters we are going to have a pretty good turnout. We shall see? If you are in the Area, come and shoot!!

Haven't built what I'm thinking yet but it could end up being pretty crazy!!

Travis you know, if that's not ported it's probably legal for limited now!

I give Travis, what's this and was it yours or the Para's or what?

Shot Tuesday night steel match last night with the 8 shooter. 5 revo's, 2 GM, 3 C class. 144 total shooters. Both Dan Furbee and I shot 8 shooters, others not sure of. I was 14th overall. Shot pretty well, one bad return to box and a couple less than stellar loads. The match is decidedly not 6 shot neutral and not really 8 shot either. I think the way to get revo more popular is going to be making matches 6 shot neutral, not 8 regardless of which you choose. That will make them more competitive with the other low cap classes. That may be necessary at the club level. It is hard to choose the revo option if you care about your finish and score overall, as I do. If TNS required 6 shot capacity, I wouldn't really wanna shoot it, doing 4-5 loads per stage rather than 2-3. If the whole Stand alone nationals works, we gotta consider a national revolver series. Revo only USPSA or something. Ok Mike, there's a new thread for ya?