Brian B
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Posts posted by Brian B
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It all depends what games you want to play with a revolver. For IDPA and PPC (mandatory reload after 6 shots for both games) get a slightly used Ruger Security Six and a bunch of Safariland lll speed loaders? USPSA/IPSC permits 8 shots in Minor power and 6 shots in major power factor. If you want to shoot Minor Power Factor in USPSA/IPSC then get a S&W 929 . I traded my S&W 627 and Super Redhawk. I own all above and Smiths: 610, 617, 586 (expensive PPC). My pistols include all classifications for above games.. I've been playing PPC and IPSC games for 22 years and just turned Super Senior. I'm slower than I used to be so I like a revolver which I find more elegant and less urgent than a pistol. My favorite revolver these days is my Ruger Redhawk 45 ACP/Colt; for IPSC Major and IDPA , nice big bang without a lot of recoil. Moon clips are great with 45acp. I have ordered 45 Winchester Magnum brass from Starline (a touch shorter than 45 Colt, much longer than ACP and it accepts moonclips). I'll work up a load for my recently cast 266 gr. Spire Point 454 bullets. We will see how it goes? Happy shooting!
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Consider this moon clip checker? Works for me on my 929 and a similar one (6 shot) for my 610.
http://www.revolversupply.com/moon-clip-checker-9-mm-s-w-929/
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I shoot IDPA with a 4.2 inch Ruger Redhawk 45 Colt/ACP using 230 ball in moonclips. It’s great fun!
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All my S&W have extendended firing pins: 626,617,610,929. Never a problem with FTF.
Strongly recommend: https://store.apextactical.com/WebDirect/Products/Details/193033
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Overthinking a potential solution to a potential problem may be the issue here? TK Moon clips (stainless) are my choice for: S&W 627, 610, 929 and Ruger Redhawk 45Acp/Colt. I use reloaded range brass including a wide variety of manufacturers. I’ve shot thousands of rounds without a problem. I use Federal factory ammo for competitions. Extended, competition firing pins are installed in the S&W revolvers. BMT is an excellent tool and I have one for each caliber. Try: ICORE, IDPA, IPSC, PPC, great people and lots of fun.
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Hi,
Your 627 is fine. After a zillion reloads you might find the 9mm case length for the 929 a nanosecond faster.
My Moon-clips story:
In order to improve my accuracy on a 40 yard target I cocked my revolver hammer for a single action shot. It froze after a slight rotation. The hammer had moved back halfway and also refused to move; pulling the trigger had no effect. This was during an IPSC (USPSA) Provincial competition with 200+ watching the final stages of my course of fire. This had never happened to me, nor had I ever heard of it ever occurring to anyone else. Revolves are supposed to be profoundly reliable? Keeping it safely downrange I tried to solve the problem. This was the last of 16 stages and 210 rounds. It was a scorcher of a hot day and we were all thirsty. Time was moving. “Slap and Rack” was all I could think of, from my old pistol days. Therefore I decided force might be the solution. While pointing (not aiming) downrange and my finger off the trigger, attempting to close the cylinder, I hit hard against it with the palm of my hand: BANG. I was DQ (disqualified) due to an AD (accidental discharge). Total embarrassment and confusion...
I was using factory ammo (Federal) and none of the casings showed extended primers.
The only potential cause of this issue was that I had leaned hard against a barricade during the course of fire and BENT the next moon-clip to be reloaded, which caused the cylinder to refuse rotation....
Competition moon-clips: I use
https://www.tkcustom.com/products/swn929x8-9mm-035-ss
Practice moon-clips: I use
http://www.revolversupply.com/moon-clip-9-mm-and-38-super-s-w-929-blued-finish/
Imperative, Moon clip checker:
http://www.revolversupply.com/moon-clip-checker-9-mm-s-w-929/
magnetic moon clip holder
BMT loader/unloader
Holster:
https://www.doubletapsports.com/Ghost-International/ghost-holster-for-revolver
Also get the holster extension for the mouth of the barrel and extra powerfull magnets on the moonclip holders from Double Alpha
Home Depot has neat storage containers which I store all loaded clips. Great to transport to and from range. If I miss a used clip I can see the empty space and know to go look for it. Usually someone picked it up, put it on a table or bench, not knowing who was the owner:
17 Compartment Portable Storage Box, Red
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.17-compartment-portable-storage-box-red.1001052027.html
All above for S&W 929, 610 and Ruger Redhawk 45 ACP/Colt.
Good shooting!
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So I picked up my 929 today, it came with moon clips. I’m gonna need more than 3, which are the the best ones to get? I’m getting a BMT loader/unloader too
Moon-clips:
In order to improve my accuracy on a 40 yard target I cocked my revolver hammer for a single action shot. The cylinder froze after a slight rotation. The hammer had moved back halfway and also refused to move; pulling the trigger had no effect. This was during an IPSC (USPSA) Provincial competition with 200+ watching the final stages of my course of fire. This had never happened to me, nor had I ever heard of it ever occurring to anyone else. Revolves are supposed to be profoundly reliable? Keeping it safely downrange I tried to solve the problem. This was the last of 16 stages and 210 rounds. It was a scorcher of a hot day and we were all thirsty. Time was moving. “Slap and Rack” was all I could think of, from my old pistol days. Therefore I decided force might be the solution. While pointing (not aiming) downrange and my finger off the trigger, attempting to close the cylinder, I hit hard against it with the palm of my hand: BANG. I was DQ (disqualified) due to an AD (accidental discharge). Total embarrassment and confusion...
I was using factory ammo (Federal) and none of the casings showed extended primers.
The only potential cause of this issue was that I had leaned hard against a barricade during the course of fire and BENT the next moon-clip to be reloaded, which caused the cylinder to refuse rotation....
Competition moon-clips: I use
https://www.tkcustom.com/products/swn929x8-9mm-035-ss
Practice moon-clips: I use
http://www.revolversupply.com/moon-clip-9-mm-and-38-super-s-w-929-blued-finish/
Imperative, Moon clip checker:
http://www.revolversupply.com/moon-clip-checker-9-mm-s-w-929/
magnetic moon clip holder
BMT loader/unloader.
Home Depot has neat storage containers which I store all loaded clips. Great to transport to and from range. If I miss a used clip I can see the empty space and know to go look for it. Usually someone picked it up, put it on a table or bench, not knowing who was the owner:
17 Compartment Portable Storage Box, Red
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.17-compartment-portable-storage-box-red.1001052027.html
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I’ve had my 617 since new in 1995. It’s my favourite handgun. I shoot it the most. Most range cessions start with about 100 rounds of 22lr then I transition to another more powerful handgun. The 617 gives me a great warm up to muscle memory, eye hand coordination and trigger control without the distractions of recoil.
Taught my kids to shoot with it.
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IHAVEGAS is 100% on the money, thank you for link to the great article. HoneyBooBoo, I also recommend your first revolver be a 10 shot 6 inch 22 LR caliber. Mine is a S&W 617. There are a few others now available. It is incredibly accurate with all the ammo I feed it regardless of quality, cheap bulk 22shorts as well as expensive Olimpic grade ammo. I taught my kids how to shoot with it, got newbie shooters started with it and always start my range sessions with it. I practice the long trigger pull associated with revolvers in double action. It promotes good eye-hand coordination without the distraction of recoil. Once I have shot 100 rounds or so then I’ll begin with a larger caliber revolver or pistol. HoneyBooBoo it sounds like you enjoy souping up your toys? Me too. I installed front and rear fiber optic sites on my S&W 617, 610, JM929 and on my Ruger Redhawk 45ACP/Colt. A Big Dot XS sight was installed on my Ruger Security Six. Apex extended firing pins were installed on the guns using moonclips. None of these needed any internal improvements. I did spend about $2,300 in gunsmithing on my 586 PPC revolver. This included a new bull barrel, Aristocrate sights and a complete overhaul of the guts (imagin porting and polishing a V8 motor). This revolver only shoots hollow based wadcutters.
Important: Recoil with revolvers is very different than with pistols; pistols have recoil springs which mitigates the millisecond of shearing shock of the explosion. I sold my 44 Magnum revolver because I could not shoot more than 24 bullets before the skin on my palms started to tear. I recently shot a Desert Eagle in 50AE and it kicked like 10 horses but it didn’t hurt my hand. The internal springs made the incredibly powerful recoil even, almost smooth and without that sharp spike in force at the instant of powder burn. I put 100 50AE bullets down range in that one session which left me with: a major dent in my credit card and a spectacular grin for two days. Buy your 617 then get loading blocks, speed loaders and a lot of cheap bulk 22 ammo and have fun.
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Yes there was trouble with early production guns. Ruger client service here in Canada was excellent. (Snap Shot Guns in Quebec) My first revolver was seriously inaccurate. I returned it and the Ruger service people agreed with me, returned it to head office and gave me a new gun. The new gun had a serial number that was a few hundred higher than the first gun and it also was terribly inaccurate. The service department again agreed and sent me a third brand new revolver. This one is a charm. It shoots double Alfa’s all day long and easily knocks down steel. What was wrong with the first production? I suspect the cylinder throats were too narrow for the forcing cone and bore. That would send a bullet rattling down a barrel with little or no grasp of the bore grooves. Nothing to do with ammo type nor jumping a gap. At 4.2 inches it is perfectly weighted for USPSA/IPSC./ICORE/IDPA My 610, 586 seem front heavy at 6 inches. My new 929 may be more competitive, time wise, but it is nowhere near as fun as the the big bullets from the Ruger Redhawk .
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Consider the Redhawk 45ACP/Colt 4.2 inch revolver. Has curved grip to facilitate carry. Uses moon clips for ACP. I’ve had mine since it came out, 17 months? Great fun, accurate and I like the looks. I shoot mostly 45ACP; the colt rounds make it an over the top hand cannon. If that’s what you want, killing Dinosaurs with one shot, this is it; nice to know you can practice with (softer?) ACP.
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All my S&W revolvers have extended firing pins:
https://store.apextactical.com/WebDirect/Products/Details/191695
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Get a chronograph that speaks Bluetooth to your iPhone/Android. Bench rest your barrel going for tightest groups at 15 yards using quality factory FMJ Ammo through the crono. If you have a regular flier, number your cylinders and identify the culprit. Swaging your barrel is the last step. Swage your cylinder throats first. They all must be wider than the barrel. Only if you discover an issue as described above; have a gunsmith ream the throats, cut a shallow edge on the mouth of each cylinder (to improve feeding), trim the forcing cone, check the timing and reface the crown.
Unless you can do it yourself have him install a competition extended firing pin from Apex. This eliminates FTF's from light strikes caused by a super small warp of the moon clip. Only after all of the above has been addressed, thereby eliminating any gun related issues, should you consider using reloaded ammo.
Testing your reloading recipes with the chronograph will ensure you make your power factor, accuracy as well as acquiring the softest recoil. Heavy and slow bullets seems to be the trend. The most used load at the USPSA Revolver Nationals had a 160 grain bullet on top of a 9mm brass. That's a big projectile for a 9mm. Eight shot S&W 929's are now the majority on the line; all shooting minor. Just got mine and am prepping it. I still love my 610 in major. I don't know if ICORE has power factor rules. Consider only stainless steel TK moon clips for competition. Pricey but absolutely priceless. They are super rugged. Here's why I only use TK in competition: I leaned hard against a barrier during a course of fire and unknowingly bent a moon clip (blue steel). When I quickly fed the cylinder and closed it the revolver froze solid. Nothing moved. The trigger was stuck, the hammer was partly moved back. The warped moon clip was jammed tight. The clock was ticking. Clearing a jam with a pistol is usually a slap up on the mag and a rack of the slide. I thought this could work? While aiming down range, my finger off the trigger, I rotated my wrist so that the grips were horizontal to the ground ( gansta style?) and gave the cylinder a hard knock with my other hand...BANG...I had an AD (accidental discharge) with a revolver. I've never heard of this happing nor did I think it was possible. Disqualified in front of 60 people. The cone of shame. If you must use them, blue steel clips should be used only for practice. Also consider: a BMT MOONER , a moon clip checker, Double Alpha magnetic moon clip holder posts (I added the extra powerful magnet because my moon clips are stainless steel), Double Alpha Revolver race holster. There are three related but different pastimes: shooting, reloading and casting. Have fun!
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I believe an extended firing pin in the Smith & Wesson revolver is essential to accommodate the different thicknesses of moon clips that are available. I have had an extended firing pin in my model 610 for several years and enjoyed the reliability. I am just now installing the extended firing pin into my new model 929. Good luck!
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I believe your first revolver should be a 10 shot 22 calibre Smith & Wesson model number 617.
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I posted earlier about cutting back the barrel on a 929 because of the balance. Now i'm thinking maybe a different grip would make a difference... Maybe some "Big Butts."
I've tried a few different style grips, the originals, a set of JMs from my 625, and a set of Ahrends Tactical w/ finger grooves. The Ahrends and the JMs are smooth wood and feel good in the practice draw but when on the clock I find them lacking. The "original" rubber grips with finger grooves seem to work good but I find my self re-adjusting my grip with my weak hand during the presentation.
I have never handled a "Big Butt" grip so I'm really not sure about which one to look at, wood or rubber, finger grove or smooth. I'm thinking maybe, smooth rubber.
My hands are men's large, and my fingers are slender. What are some recommendations?
My first issue with my competition revolvers was muscle fatigue. Squeezing as strongly as possible, throught the course of fire, consistently in a few hours of the match became very difficult. My ego argued with me that I was a big strong man. However I use a keyboard and a pen as my major work tools all day at work. Artfully manipulating a 44 once piece of steel with speed and concentrated force needs lots of practice. My brother is a machinist making large aircraft parts using a 40 foot long milling machine. His hands are powerful from years of manually setting up the pieces, jigs, braces and blocks. I looked at his hands over a beer one day and realised I needed more strength. Regardless of the many grips I've bought (all available from USA, Germany France, including one custom made just to my hand, and the Smooth JM grip) I ended up just holding and pointing the gun. Speed and accuracy suffered. I had to get stronger. Here are the grip exercisers I bought:
https://fasttoys.net/ca/Heavy-Grips-Canada-Hand-Grip-Strength-Trainer-Six-Pack/
Buy and use these as a first priority?
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no fiber rears for me either, too distracting. The front fiber is for locating the front sight then aligning the sights with the rears. Three red dots would make it confusing.
Green front, red rear: no confusion. Fiber optics rule.
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For $250-$350 you can get an almost new Ruger Security Six. eBay has bunches of speed loaders, loading trays, holsters and belts. ( lots of former PPC shooters selling their stuff). It is "agile and balanced". Consider this option, shoot it a lot. Mine is like silk. It is the reason I bought the new Ruger RedHawk in 45 ACP/LC with a 4.25 inch barrel and Moon Clips. It too is "agile and balanced". Very soft shooting 230 grain 45acp making IPSC major. I've been running a 610 in IPSC for 5 years; it's now a safe queen as are my 586 and 627. My 617 comes with me every trip to the range as my warm up gun, the Redhawk as core practice and the Six as a cool down. For your first revolver for USPSA consider a Ruger Security Six. You will always use it regardless of the growth of your revolver inventory. Cheers
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The New Ruger RedHawk in 45 ACP/LC has a 4.25 inch barrel and uses Moon Clips for 45 ACP. I just ran mine through its first IPSC match and I was very satisfied. It is perfectly balanced. I had been running a Smith 610 which has a 6.5 inch barrel. I found the balance of the 610 front heavy. 230 grain 45 ACP ammo through the Ruger is softer than either nine mil or forty cal. If/when IPSC goes 8 shot revolver minor I'll try using my wife's PC627 to see my score; but I do like my RedHawk! Cheers
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I am setting up two S&W 629 Classics for DA, mostly for fun shooting in my back yard. I want the lightest DA pull I can get with reliable ignition of Federal primers.
Will an aftermarket firing pin help? Is there any real practical difference between the C&S and the Apex?
Thanks
I use an extended Firing Pin in my S&W 610 using moon clips with .40cal 180 grain FMJ Federal. This makes major power factor in IPSC/USPSA. There was one failure to go bang every 3 to 4 clips. There has been 100% reliability after installing the extended firing pin.
The potential variances which could occur with moon clips may cause the failures. The extended firing pin helps bridge that gap.
What It Does
The Apex Competition Firing Pin Kit is Intended for competition use only. The kit consists of the firing pin (17-4 heat treated stainless steel) and a reduced power firing pin return spring and was designed specifically to reduce the probability of light hits for high performance trigger action work- specifically handloads using Federal primers seated .008"-.010" in depth.
Expected Results
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Applicable To What Gun(s)
Works in current production Smith & Wesson K-Frame, L-Frame and N-Frame revolvers.
In The Package
1 ea. Apex Competition Firing Pin
1 ea. Reduced power firing pin return spring (light)
https://store.apextactical.com/WebDirect/Products/Details/191695
Good shooting
Brian B -
Regarding sights, almost all our PPC league uses Aristocrat sights. Holdover is not necessary at 25 and 50 yards with a click of the knob on the side of the sight. Extremely accurate. Good luck.
http://www.aristocratproducts.com/page1.html
Brian B
Brian B -
I've shot a fair bit of PPC. My choice would be a 6 inch Ruger GP-100 with a Wilson or Wolfe spring kit. My GP-100 will toss virtually any decent load of full cylinder 6 round groups into 2.5 or less from a 25 yard bench. Lead, plated, jacketed, Hi-Tek coating... it seems to make no difference. The spring kit gets me down to about a 7.8 pound DA pull, and a very light SA pull. I have found that the standard adjustable Ruger rear sight will "bounce" on you... but a Bowen Rough Country replacement rear stopped that.
I find the Ruger GP-100 to be more accurate with lead, plated, or Bayou than the 686 I used to shoot.
Regarding sights, almost all our PPC league uses Aristocrat sights. Holdover is not necessary at 25 and 50 yards with a click of the knob on the side of the sight. Extremely accurate. Good luck.
http://www.aristocratproducts.com/page1.html
Brian B -
I've tried just about every moon loading tool there is but have always had some problems do to my Parkinsons and Arthritis in holding the tool and using enough pressure to seat the bullets. Today I tried the new http://www.revolversupply.com/moon-clip-loading new Pocket Moon Clip Tool and I'm very happy with it.
Small enough to keep in my shooting bag and easy to use to load a fresh moon or refresh a moon with a few bullets.
Mine is set up for TKCustom moons. There are also a number of other arbors for your different moon clips.
I find it easy to use, very stable and had no problems loading 50 moon clip. I'm sure I could do more but that's all the TKs I have.
I also have their Ultimate Moon Clip Loader and am very happy with it for extended reloading moon adventures. If you are looking for something that works give either of these a try.
The Pocket Moon Clip Tool will stay in my shooting bag and I will let anyone that wants to try it out.
I believe your arthritis would be well served by the following:
When loading the moon clips you can use wide pliers to squeeze ammo in ( bending lots of clips), snap them in using your fingers (bleeding from deep cuts into your knuckles) or try the Arbor style spring loaded plier ( which is accurate and extremely slow, my spring broke after about 30 min.)
When unloading the moon clips the two options are pulling them manually or a copper pipe with an edge ground into it enabling a twist to remove (that twist often bends the arm of the clip holding the casing) A nice screwdriver with a pipe is available which has the same risk of damage.
All of the above has been my experience until I bought my first BTMooner . I can load 30 rounds into 5 moon clips faster than I can load 3 ten round mags! I can unload a moon clip in less than two seconds and the casings fall neatly into my bag. All this is done at a casual pace, the BTMOONER is that efficient. I no longer destroy expensive competition moon clips. They have paid for themselves many times over as well as saving me hours at the loading bench. I have three units one each for my S&W610, S&W627 and one for my new Ruger RedHawk 45 ACP/Colt model 5032. Good luck.
http://www.bmtequipped.com/products.php
Brian B -
http://www.bmtequipped.com/about.php
I feel this is one of the easiest to operate tools for loading/unloading moon clips. Cost a little bit, though.
When loading the moon clips you can use wide pliers to squeeze ammo in ( bending lots of clips), snap them in using your fingers (bleeding from deep cuts into your knuckles) or try the Arbor style spring loaded plier ( which is accurate and extremely slow, my spring broke after about 30 min.)
When unloading the moon clips the two options are pulling them manually or a copper pipe with an edge ground into it enabling a twist to remove (that twist often bends the arm of the clip holding the casing) A nice screwdriver with a pipe is available which has the same risk of damage.
All of the above has been my experience until I bought my first BTMooner . I can load 30 rounds into 5 moon clips faster than I can load 3 ten round mags! I can unload a moon clip in less than two seconds and the casings fall neatly into my bag. All this is done at a casual pace, the BTMOONER is that efficient. I no longer destroy expensive competition moon clips. They have paid for themselves many time over as well as saving me hours at the loading bench. I have three units one each for my S&W610, S&W627 and one for my new Ruger RedHawk 45 ACP/Colt model 5032.
BMT Moon Loader **** UPDATED **** review
in Revolver Forum
Posted
BMT Moon Loaders are the best for me. I have them for my S&W 610, 929, 627 and for my Ruger Redhawk 45Colt/ACP. They have saved me hours of work and torn skin.
Cheers
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