barrysuperhawk

That's it, we need to add a new class. Open, Heavy Metal, Tactical, Limited and Severely Limited © ...

YAY!! My Check was cashed, I made it IN.. Now I just have to decide what rifle for HM...

Ok, heres a question, how close is Mossberg's lifter to other brand lifters? I modified an 1100 Charging handle to fit my 930SPX, before Choate started making them for the 930. It occurs to me that most lifters more or less have to be close to the same dimensions, I wonder if there is another part, say out of a benelli or something that is close enough to be modifyable to work in the 930?

SANTA Hernandez totally hosed me last year, selling me a spare barrel [including charging my CC] for a barrel that apparently had not been in production or available for over a year. Imagine how rotten it is to be cussing mad at a guy named SANTA... I asked about the whole trigger group gunsmith thing and apparently they don't just let you say you are a gunsmith, you actually have to register with them to be authorized... So, if we find a way, I would be in for one too....

I have skateboard tape all over my 930. Be sure to get actual skateboard tape, not the "stickey sandpaper crap" that the hardware store sells.

I have been kicking around sending my SG off to have it cut for chokes...actually I desperately need to do this, I really needed to do it 3 months ago, but that's another story. Anyway, I have a old barrel for a SG I don't even own anymore that has a polychoke on it and that got me thinking. Is there a reason a polychoke wouldn't be a good idea for 3 gun? Threading a barrel from scratch and buying half a dozen chokes can add up to some $$. OTOH, this would give me every choke I would likely need without having to screw with removeable chokes at all. Maybe a cat-tail on the end might not make mid-course adjustments a good idea [but, you have to admit it's funny to think about if it wasn't such a bad idea..] This is what I am talking about: http://www.poly-choke.com/choke.htm This offers the following SETTINGS X-Full (Closed) Full Improved Modified Modified Improved Cylinder Slug X-Full (Open - Cylinder Bore) Two settings past Cylinder Bore The only reason I havent pulled the trigger on this already is I have never seen another competitor using one, so I am looking for the reason why...

I found a WATERFOWL shotshell holder when I started out... Think a series of individual side saddles on a strap - no elastic at all. They seem to hold better than the regular elastic, if you can find one.

The Ozark 3 gun kinda has to be 13-15 September, doesen't it?

I have 2 G34's with grip reduction / stiple jobs. #1 is http://www.advancedperformanceshooting.com/ Jim is a stand up guy and does an AWESOME job. Word of warning, it's REALLY grippy. There are levels of grip , light, medium, heavy and extreme. Extreme can draw blood, imagine grabbing a running chainsaw blade. You want this if you want your gun to grab you back when you grip it. #2 is http://lonestararmory.net/products Andrew is also a stand up guy. This reduction is much smoother and neat looking, but still very effective. It doesen't grip nearly as well as Jim's but it's not as hard on the paws either. PM me if you want pictures of either.

The scores..

As a side note, there may or may not have been someone that gave it a go with 00 buckshot [not during the match] and had MUCH better results, as in cleaned the 6 targets, in the specified order, with 9 rounds from an un-choked gun.

I will admit I could have phrased my thoughts better, but I stand behind them. The intent of any stage is for the shooter to actually shoot at the targets as presented. The 10 second Failure to neutralize [or 5 second if Jesse gets his way] is apparently not enough of an incentive for some shooters to actually try to hit the targets as presented. That was why a cretain other major match enacted the infamous 100 second penalty on long range rifle targets last year. That wasn't a popular solution either. If we go with the 5 second FTN, then every single shooter on stage 6 could have run up to the roof, rattled off 10 shots as fast as possible and still broken about even on time. Why bother ever shooting any target longer than 100 yards again? Heck, why even bother with a nice optic even, I mean a $50 chicom knockoff is good enough for 100 yards, right? Those are extreme examples, but you see my point. I personally believe in setting the standard a bit higher, and if the result is a bit difficult, well, it wouldn't be 3 gun if it wasn't a challenge. As far as playing stump the chump, painting the rifle targets camoflauge at my own club matches was a very effective way for me to equalize between optic shooters and irons without running divisions and classes. Magnified optics tended to have a harder time finding the targets so they were effectively on equal footing with the iron shooters. When was the last time you saw that in a match? Creative stage design that requires shooters to exert effort is the best possible thing for this sport. Sometimes the execution goes a bit awry [rather like my explanations], but the concept is still valid. ETA I just had inspiration, rather half an inspiration. It's only half because it's an Idea I don't really know how to implement. The idea is, requiring a minimum number of shots at a target before it is determined to be engaged, say 3-5 shots PER target before you avoid the failure to engage. It would obviously put the onus on RO's to count and keep track, but it would separate legitimate misses from just burning rounds downrange. Using my example from above [stage 6] it would increase the non-aimed round requirement to 30-50. The problem I see is it still falls short on Stage 7, because 18-30 slugs is a lot. My controversial views aside, it was a great match, and as a RO, I think the competitors should get as much credit for making a match as we do. If the competitors don't come to shoot, there is no match, so thank you, each and every one of you. Thank you for traveling, for putting up with the weather, for putting up with the inevitable issues that crop up, for everything. The friends I make at these matches are worth more than anything that could be put on a prize table.

Since I am so good at playing the devil's advocate, here's my opinion on this. 3 gun is not a game for weaklings. It should be hard, because that is where the challenge is. This isn't uspsa where merely having an RO touch your target entitles you to a reshoot. We shoot in bad weather, we shoot rediculusly challenging stages that would make a non-shooter's eyes bug out, and we solve every problem thrown at us. The level of talent at 3 gun matches is ever increasing, so the difficulty should also increase. If it is easy, then it gets boring. If 70% of the shooters clean the stage with a good time, the stage wasn't hard enough. It's these stages that separate out who can really shoot from those of us that haven't practiced enough. If a good shooter requires a stage to be "easy enough" to get a good time, then they aren't that good of a shooter. I have set up matches with 45# knock down targets at 185 yards, if you were shooting underpowered ammo, guess what? I have taken mini-ipsc cardboard targets painted some green stripes on them and stuck them in tall grass. How about having to drag a 100# dummy, or balance yourself on the side of a roof so you don't fall off while you shoot? Everything is a challenge and shame on the gamers that decided to rattle off 6 quick slugs and take the penalties. Were it my stage, I might have considered assessing penalties for Failure to Engage penalties or maybe procedurals for not engaging them in the correct order, if the shooter obviously wasn't aiming. Maybe something like IDPA's "failure to do right" penalties.

Damn, I was runner-up? That's the nices't thing anyone said to me...LOL

Just got home, wow am I tired... Great match everyone, and a big thanks to Kirk, and Rob, and Misty, and well I forgot the food guy's name, but the Food was awesome too... ...........I just realized it took 10 minutes to type and re-type the preceding line, so, I am going to quit posting now. Tired posting is worse than drunk posting...

I didn't see any space designated for zeroing at the range last night, and so far nobody has corrected my previous statement, so, no, I would not plan on being able to zero at the range.

I've heard this before. If the plate is laying down, it fell. There is nothing in the rules that says plate must fall off stand to score. Just that it must fall. It did. Have you run this past the RMs of the matches you RO, and if so, and they agreed, could you provide a list of these matches so I can make sure I never mistakenly attend one? CMMG/Midwest Plate was laying flat on stand, RO called miss, RM was called in, still a miss. "Plate has to fall". You can actually replicate this condition more easily than turning a trarget. Pound in your stand really tight and then shoot the stand with the target on it. The stand moved just enough to slide out from under the target but then catches it. FWIW the ones I called misses were all pistol targets, not Shotgun. I like where you are going, but I would say not to extend this to clays because of the problem stated above. Without changing any of the existing scoring, a turned target could be called a 5 second and a standing [not touched] target 10 sec, and a standing target that wasn't seen or shot at 15 seconds? FTN/FTE penalties have the problem on steel of "I SHOT AT IT". I always used to call a standing steel or a clean paper target as a de-facto FTE [no hits at all = no credit for engaging] but I would get shooters that got hung up on the word "engage" instead of just realizing the terms FTN/FTE are just a way of differintiating the levels of penalty.

I know, and like I said, it's not personal. There are alot of target stands out there that don't have the anti-turn technology, so until they are all upgraded, the best we can do as RO's is be consistent. There oughta be a law... As far as the Slug on the close target, *my* ruling on the spot was stage DQ...but the MD over-ruled me and decided it should only be a procedural and charged him like $20 for the broken stand The shooter and MD decided since the rules didn't explicitly say "don't shoot slugs at close steel" that it wasn't against the rules. My position was that it was an unsafe act, and I stand behind my call. That said, the MD is the MD and his opinion is what counts. That's why we have MD's, after all. I was never mad about being over-ruled, I was mad about being right next to a shooter that put a slug into a steel target from 8 yards. It was blind luck that nobody got hurt. Hazards of the job, I guess.

Trapr, your own signature line says "ALL STEEL SHOULD FALL." Ok, I realize I am in a minority here advocating a fairly strict interpretation of the existing rules, and despite some opinions to the contrary, I don't take it personally. Hell, I was the RO that had a shooter blast a 5" plate and base into 3 pieces with a slug from about 8 yards in front of me and then got overruled on the SAFETY issue, so I understand that strict RO's are not popular RO's. That said, I have to point out that the "must fall to score" rule was not mine, it came straight from the MD's mouth. Every RO has made a bad call at some point, but once you have made it, it's also unfair to not be consistent with every shooter. It's human nature to push boundaries. Sometimes there are targets that just don't cooperate. A good example of this was the spinner from CMMG this year. I have video of me getiing 6 fairly solid hits and the blasted thing refused to move. *I* was the one that tried to move it with #8 shot out of a Cyl bore shotgun and failed, so it is my fault that it did not move. I hit the thing, I just couldnt hit it hard enough. I suppose it could be argued that since I hit it, I should get credit for it, despite the fact my hits were wimpy at best. I didn't argue that, but it is a point. One important point to note though, is that after the match with the flipped plate landing on the stand, I have intentionally made sure to set my stage with every plate stand leaning backward slightly, so almost any hit works and you almost cant spin one. It makes them a little harder to reset, but it fixes 99% of these problems. The standard I use is the back edge of the top of the plate is plumb with the back edge of the foot, maybe 5-6 degrees of angle backward. The flip side is that if you, as a shooter, take enough time to make sure every target is neutralized, is it really fair to YOU if the next shooter blasts through and gets credit for turned plates [that were the result of poor accuracy] and beats you on time? On paper targets, accuracy is rewarded and lack of accuracy is penalized [although less so in 3 gun than USPSA] A "D" hit [the result of poor accracy] does not count for as much as an "A", so why should a turned shotgun plate [the result of poor accracy] count the same as a solid hit that blasted the plate 10 feet?

I am going to go out on a limb and guess probably not. We had one 2 years ago, but last year we did not. This year, we are using less area than we did last year, so I certainly wouldn't count on having one available. I am betting there might be an actual stage in that location this year. Rob, Kirk, is that right? Please correct me if I guessed wrong.

I've heard this before. If the plate is laying down, it fell. There is nothing in the rules that says plate must fall off stand to score. Just that it must fall. It did. Have you run this past the RMs of the matches you RO, and if so, and they agreed, could you provide a list of these matches so I can make sure I never mistakenly attend one? That won't help you, Good luck attending 2 matches in a row that use exactly the same ruleset and scoring methodology. Heck, with 3 gun you are doing well to see the rules applied exactly the same from stage to stage at a big match. A good example was at CMMG this year where they used standing steel as pistol targets on some stages [that did not fall, only "rung"] On Stage 6, if it made noise, it counted, on Stage 8, if you didn't have 2 distinct bullet splats in the paint, you got dinged for a miss, even if you hit the thing 3 times . Some RO's are stricter in their interpretation of the rules than others, but as long as they are consistant from shooter to shooter on their stage, I don't have a problem. Actually, I think the USPSA style 11.23.2.1.1 rulesmithing "It doesent say it has to fall on the GROUND to score" is bad for 3 gun in general. After all, why did you come to the match? Did you come to shoot and have fun, or did you come to be guaranteed that you would receive a firearm from the price table? If you came just for the gun, it's cheaper and easier to just go buy the damn thing, don't you think? If someone beat you out of a gun over the difference of one turned shotgun plate, it's because they hit the thing squarely and you (almost) missed it. The target was presented exactly the same before either of you pulled the trigger. It's like blaming a drop turner for a loss because you got 2 deltas, and the guy that beat you got 2 Alphas... Not to stray off subject too much, but how do you score a texas star if the shooter hits the stand with 1 shot and all of the plates fall off [assuming the round expended was appropriate for the array]? There's nothing in the rules that say you have to ONLY knock down ONE plate per shot. Does you opinion change if it was a freak lucky shot or if the competitor was actively gaming the stage and trying for the shot?

Why, Jesse, I thought the party was wherever you were going to be.... I mean you are the one bringing the girls, right?

Yah, well, I have been trying since CMMG [and that damnable spinner that wouldn't spin] to come up with Chokes for my gun and as of this morning, I remain a failure at that task. My point is that just because it's sideways, thats not nearly the challenge for a shotgun that it is for a pistol. I spin them alot due to my lack of choke and lack of good aim, but they almost always go down with the second shot if I do my part [which is what I should have done for shot #1, ironically]

Shooting a no-choke shotgun, I have turned at least one plate in every match I have been to, I think. While RO'ing stages, I have seen the shooter hit the stand and drop the plate flat onto the top of the stand, I have seen the entire stand rotate and present a 90 degree target. My solution is simple, if it didn't fall, it does not score, and if it is still on the stand, it did not fall. This isn't an arcade game, and the variability of targets is part of the reason we play this game. When I have been the shooter, most of the time a second shot knocks it off, especially if I have the presence of mind to aim low on it or take a step to get a better angle. If I blast 5-6 shells at it and continue to miss, that's my fault as a competitor for not being accurate enough to begin with. As an RO, I patiently listen to all of the whining and then score it the same as any other. The simple fact is that a weak or offcenter hit might turn the target, so aim better. if you are in a tight enough race that the 5 seconds you earn for missing that steel makes a difference, I guarantee there are 100 other points during the match where you could have done better and failed.