Neil Beverley
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Posts posted by Neil Beverley
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Guys, I reckon we can rebuild this thread with the gist of most of the significant data.
I can remember posts from KURTM, SKYWALKER67, MIKE45, KELLYN (I think). Anyone else??
Is there anything else we should put back?
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Phoenix's son also found a copy of the last posting I made to this thread which was details of shot size equivalents, as follows:
Kurt
The entry fee is 250 Euros which (subject to tourist exchange rates) will probably equate to around 260-270 US dollars at today's rates.
SKYWALKER will have to answer you with regards to the type of Winchester cartridges available.
As advised yesterday I've dug out the shot size comparison chart that I knew I had somewhere. SKYWALKER pasted correct data yesterday for Italian buckshot sizes but I've added French and Belgium sizes to the table as well. Please see below:
US UK ITALY FRANCE BELGIUM SPAIN
BUCKSHOT
000 Buck LG
00 Buck SG 11/0 9G
0 Buck 10/0 12G
1 Buck Spec. SG 9/0 C2
2 Buck 8/0
3 Buck
4 Buck SSG 7/0 C3
BIRDSHOT
2 1 1 or 2 3 - 3
4 3 3 4 - 4
5 4 4 5 - 5
6 5 5 6 5 6
- 6 6 - 6 -
7.5 7 7.5 7 7 7
8 7.5 8 7.5 7.5 7.5
- 8 - 8 8 8
9 9 9.5 9 9 9
Swedish sizes are the same as US sizes. Dutch sizes are the same as Belgium sizes.
I believe all the above to be correct but I've simply copied the data from a chart.
(Edited by Neil Beverley at 11:32 pm on Feb. 28, 2003)
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I originally started this thread to canvas and promote this match in Italy this year.
Sadly the thread has been a victim of yesterday's crash.
As luck would have it I had copied and pasted the original text into an email that I sent to the Italian Regional Director for his info and approval.
Therefore this thread can rise from the ashes ....
ORIGINAL TEXT:
I have been in contact with the Region Director for IPSC Italy and he advises that there may be some extra slots available for non-European Regions so if anyone is interested they should contact their own RD to ask for a booking, sooner rather than later.
I've pasted the match details below from their web site:
THE EUROPEAN SHOTGUN CHAMPIONSHIP WILL BE HELD IN TERNI-ITALY, 1 HOUR DRIVE NORTH OF ROME
S C H E D U L E :
22 AUGUST: Arrival of Match Officials
23-24 AUGUST: Pre Match & Registration(Regional Directors, Officials, Sponsors)
24-25 AUGUST: Registration
25 AUGUST: General Assembly
26 AUGUST: Opening Ceremony
27-29 AUGUST: Proper Match
30 AUGUST: Shoot Offs
30 AUGUST: Awards Ceremony
Slots request confirmation (RD only): March 31, 2003
Match entry fee payment (€ 250,00 per slot) March 31, 2003
This will be a 3 days match, consisting of 21 stages (7 stages per day);
shooters will be squadded in 21 squads, each one composed of 16 shooters, for a total of 336 competitors.
All divisions will be recognized, provided entries are received to comply with IPSC rules.
Each competitor will shoot approx 270 rounds during the whole match, mixed slugs and shells.
More details on this subject upon stage drawings release.
FAQ
Q. I would like to shoot the European Shotgun Championship: How can I register for the match?
A. You shall contact your Regional Director and ask for a slot for the match. In case you do not know your Regional Director e-mail address, you can browse the list using the link: http://www.ipsc.org/regions.htm.
Q. Can I rent a shotgun directly on the range?
A. We are currently working on this, we will let you know a.s.a.p.
Q. Can I buy ammunitions directly on the range?
A. We are currently working on this, we will let you know a.s.a.p.
Q. Which is the nearest international/local airport to the range?
A. The nearest international airport is Rome's airport "Leonardo da Vinci", while the nearest local is Perugia's "Sant'Egidio".
Q. Which Rule Book will be applicable and where can I find it?
A. The applicable Rule Book will be "Shotgun Rules V3 (2003)" and you can download it from the IPSC web site, following this link http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/ShotgunRulesV3.pdf.
There is a link from the IPSC web page to the match web site and the direct website adress is:
I have no connection with the organisers other than that I've met them when I shot there last year but I am keen to see the match a success.
If I can help with any questions I will, otherwise I will pass on any queries to the organisers.
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Kurt
The entry fee is 250 Euros which (subject to tourist exchange rates) will probably equate to around 260-270 US dollars at today's rates.
SKYWALKER will have to answer you with regards to the type of Winchester cartridges available.
As advised yesterday I've dug out the shot size comparison chart that I knew I had filed somewhere. SKYWALKER pasted correct data yesterday for Italian buckshot sizes but I've added French, Belgium and Spanish sizes to the table as well. Please see below:
US UK ITALY FRANCE BELGIUM SPAIN
BUCKSHOT
000 Buck LG
00 Buck SG 11/0 9G
0 Buck 10/0 12G
1 Buck Spec. SG 9/0 C2
2 Buck 8/0
3 Buck
4 Buck SSG 7/0 C3
BIRDSHOT
2 1 1 or 2 3 - 3
4 3 3 4 - 4
5 4 4 5 - 5
6 5 5 6 5 6
- 6 6 - 6 -
7.5 7 7.5 7 7 7
8 7.5 8 7.5 7.5 7.5
- 8 - 8 8 8
9 9 9.5 9 9 9
I understand that the Swedish sizes follow the US and Dutch sizes follow the sizes for Belgium.
Please accept my apologies for any mistakes but I've simply tried to copy it from a table that I have. I hope it's of some use.
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Hi Mike
Just for your info the top Brits are loading 6 and shooting the first target in under 5 seconds.
I haven't timed them specifically but I strongly suspect that John B. and perhaps Craig are breaking 4.5 seconds.
There was another thread where we discussed split times and while I think we're ahead with our loading I don't believe we keep up with the splits, except perhaps John and Craig, but generally we're off the pace shot to shot.
If you're at the Shield match in a couple of weeks I'll show you the stats, otherwise ask me the next time at Harlow.
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Skywalker
Pardon me for butting in but I believe there is a slight confusion over the shot sizes.
Poppers and plates must be calibrated in accordance with the rule book. The maximum permitted barrel length is 63.5cms (25 inches). Actually the barrel you have stated wouldn't make much difference but someone may get cute on the day if they have a problem.
The test cartridge is either 7 or 7 1/2 birdshot but the comparison size I think you may have picked up is wrong. The comparison table you have shown is for buckshot and I believe the #3 size to which you refer is a US buckshot size. For birdshot the numbering system is fairly similar between the US and Europe.
I have a birdshot comparison table at home and I'll dig it out and try to post it either later today or if not tomorrow but if I recall the numbering system only varies by one number if at all for the same actual shot diameter sizes.
Another consideration for the test cartridge specification is that it must meet the minimum power factor of 520 which is easily done. This PF equates to 28gr/1 ounce loads at 1200 feet per second. This cartridge specification is easily available and can still be achieved by many 20ga cartridges.
Your point No. 3 says only buck for poppers and plates but I suspect this isn't what you intended to say. Please confirm. Most competitors last July were using birdshot not buckshot.
With regards to chokes, the 2003 rules permit the chokes to be changed or altered between stages.
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FYI - For IPSC SG it has been (for the last 2 years) and continues to be a DQ offence to shoot closer than 5m with the proc penalty charge line set at 6m. For slug the current distances are set to 50m/51m.
The IPSC rifle rules which were trialled last year also set minimum distances of 50m/51m.
For SG for 2004 we have submitted that we stay with the 5m/6m distances for DQ/Procedural for birdshot and buckshot but we have reduced the distance for slug AND increased the buffer zone so we have 35m/40m DQ/procedural. The intention is that 40m is the minimum intended shooting distance.
The larger buffer zone refelects the greater distances involved overall and falls in line with the proposed change from the Rifle committee who are opting for a 5m buffer zone but with the distances set at 45m/50m.
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Food for thought (I hope).
On the subject of sweeping and without trying to distract at all from the last post from xcount I would like to interject with a futher consideration about sweeping. Actually I seem to be fighting a losing battle with a great many with regards to longarms and for handguns there's no chance. I'll stick to the argument for longarms.
There's been some powerful statements about always regarding guns as loaded and potentially unsafe which I support.
What I frequently see is longarms carried horizontally in gun slips or cases, usually they're carried by the handles. Everyone would agree that this would be unacceptable if out of the case or slip but once in the slip everyone seems comfortable (they must all be made of Kevlar). And after all you can't get to the trigger can you!
I had a discussion on this with another very experienced shooter. The conversation went something like below:
We have no way of knowing if a gun in a slip is loaded or unloaded. We don't know if the action is open or closed. We don't know if the safety is on or off. Yet everyone seems happy to have the gun carried horizontally. Now let's take a gun, and load it (because, just because, it could be), and make sure the action is closed (because it could be), and take the safety off (because it could be). Then place the gun in a slip and walk round with it carried horizontally.
Then let's tell everyone at the range that the gun in the slip is in that condition. What would be the reaction????
Just some food for thought!
Pet rant off! Thanks for your forebearance.
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Paraman - Recoil pads are OK but they should not considered the only solution compared to good technique.
I used to teach (IPSC SG courses) a lot (less now) and I quickly discovered that I had to work hard on teaching the control of recoil or it could ruin a new shooter's introduction to the sport. We would shoot up to 350 rounds over a 2 day course. It's not particularly about build either - I've seen big guys get hurt and smaller people walk away wondering what the fuss is about. Someone with a big build may get away with it by accident but good technique is always best.
Using an 1100 back in the early 90s I had one mega training session where in one day I shot just over 800 rounds and only quit because I ran out of ammo and I was kn*ckered. My shoulder knew it had been shooting but I could have shot more. My gun at that time had a solid (hard plastic) butt plate.
Don't fight the recoil but control it. Use it. Use it to help move onto the next target. This assumes you shoot off the right shoulder and shoot left to right.
You should be able to stand with your feet perfectly together and fire double taps with vitually no barrel lift and no rearward movement if you're in control. If you can do this then think how easy it is to take up a normal stance. I get basic course students doing this after 50 or so rounds even if they've never shot a 12ga before, it gives them great confidence so we can quickly move on to other things. With the gun mounted in your shoulder properly make sure you find good balance over the centre of your feet, and bend the knees. Then tighten the muscles of your stomach, buttocks and thighs and take the shot. With some experimentation you should be able to control the movement of the gun to a very minimal amount indeed.
If pulling the gun to your shoulder doesn't work for you try "pushing" the gun towards the target by "driving" it with the shoulder.
When you can double tap with your feet together and no movement then try standing on one leg and shooting and again experimenting with the muscle groups that help control what you're doing. Concentrate on keeping the body "quiet". When you can shoot while standing on one leg and without being knocked off balance you should find that you are in control of the recoil and hopefully your problem will have mostly, if not all, gone away.
I hope the above helps. It's harder to write than to explain when on the range with someone. Don't let the recoil thing beat you. It's a pussycat really.
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Hi Kurt
I'm pleased to hear that you're going to the match. Hopefully we can catch a beer together.
I would recommend that you hire a car. This is what we did when we went there last year and we felt it was the best option. It's a fairly easy drive (aside from the rush hour in Rome, that is).
The organisers have sorted out a good choice of accomodation and if you check out their web site you can pick from there (look under the heading "Your Trip" ). Price v quality is pretty good.
If you're interested I can let you know where the Brits are going to be once we've sorted it. We hope to have 40+ competitors plus 3 or 4 ROs.
It's definitely a good idea to take your own slugs. I bought some there last year and found them shooting way off. Actually I thought it was me for a while but when I conciously aimed to the right off things got better.
The range owner is a firearms dealer and he sorted out shells for us last year but he only offered us 7s and 7 1/2s. I had heard that Fiocchi may be a sponsor for the match and that they would have cartridges for sale. There will certainly be something available but again I say bring your own slugs. Most of their cartridges were 70mm long.
There's quite a lot of us going to drive down so that we can take the kit and cartridges that we want. It's about 1100 miles from the UK.
If I can be of any further help please let me know.
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I have been in contact with the Region Director for IPSC Italy and he advises that there may be some extra slots available for non-European Regions so if anyone is interested they should contact their own RD to ask for a booking, sooner rather than later.
I've pasted the match details below from their web site:
THE EUROPEAN SHOTGUN CHAMPIONSHIP WILL BE HELD IN TERNI-ITALY, 1 HOUR DRIVE NORTH OF ROME
S C H E D U L E :
22 AUGUST: Arrival of Match Officials
23-24 AUGUST: Pre Match & Registration(Regional Directors, Officials, Sponsors)
24-25 AUGUST: Registration
25 AUGUST: General Assembly
26 AUGUST: Opening Ceremony
27-29 AUGUST: Proper Match
30 AUGUST: Shoot Offs
30 AUGUST: Awards Ceremony
Slots request confirmation (RD only): March 31, 2003
Match entry fee payment (€ 250,00 per slot) March 31, 2003
This will be a 3 days match, consisting of 21 stages (7 stages per day);
shooters will be squadded in 21 squads, each one composed of 16 shooters, for a total of 336 competitors.
All divisions will be recognized, provided entries are received to comply with IPSC rules.
Each competitor will shoot approx 270 rounds during the whole match, mixed slugs and shells.
More details on this subject upon stage drawings release.
FAQ
Q. I would like to shoot the European Shotgun Championship: How can I register for the match?
A. You shall contact your Regional Director and ask for a slot for the match. In case you do not know your Regional Director e-mail address, you can browse the list using the link: http://www.ipsc.org/regions.htm.
Q. Can I rent a shotgun directly on the range?
A. We are currently working on this, we will let you know a.s.a.p.
Q. Can I buy ammunitions directly on the range?
A. We are currently working on this, we will let you know a.s.a.p.
Q. Which is the nearest international/local airport to the range?
A. The nearest international airport is Rome's airport "Leonardo da Vinci", while the nearest local is Perugia's "Sant'Egidio".
Q. Which Rule Book will be applicable and where can I find it?
A. The applicable Rule Book will be "Shotgun Rules V3 (2003)" and you can download it from the IPSC web site, following this link http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/ShotgunRulesV3.pdf.
There is a link from the IPSC web page to the match web site and the direct website adress is:
I have no connection with the organisers other than that I've met them when I shot there last year but I am keen to see the match a success.
If I can help with any questions I will, otherwise I will pass on any queries to the organisers.
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It has to be said that Vince's personal sacrifice on this recruitment drive is above and beyond the call of duty.
It must have been hard for him!
Actually I don't know where he got the energy from, he should have been wasted after the committee meetings.
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Detlef - I've just got home and I've pulled the course design booklet for WSX out of my files.
Like I said one of the incidents was the Man V Man and I can't remember the distances involved. For another of the instances (Melville Range) the only stages with poppers had them at 7m and 14m and so inconclusive.
However the most likely stages on Century range, 2 of them, had poppers at 5m (St 32) and 3m (St 33). Certainly they're not showing anything at distances greater than 5m. St 32 was the motobike stage and it was behind this stage I attended the third injury.
Everyone I've spoken to said it was a good match but it was hell behind the scenes!!!
I really would like to reiterate that there isn't going to be a huge increase in DQs, far from it, competitors would quickly adapt.
I hope the above info helps, limited though it is.
I'm very much with Vince on this. I've eaten more than my fair share of splashback as crew and I certainly consider that distance lessens some of the effect.
I'm no expert on the subject by any means but whilst the ballistics won't diminish much on the way to the target what about on the way back? Genuine question!
I don't know if any of you will remember Jerry White from the UK but he was convinced that forward leaning FFPP significantly lessened the chances of splashback with most of the debris being directed downwards.
I've found similar results with forward leaning plates for shotgun. We now use these a lot in the UK and the crew aren't getting stung so much.
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I can only positively answer on one count, a spectator, which was during the Man v Man on the Saturday. I wasn't on the specific ranges at the time of the other incidents and only attended in response to a radio call.
I haven't got a C of F book to hand, it's at home somewhere.
The first problem occurred within the walled range adjacent to the helicopter stage. An RO was badly hit just outside his eye.
The other problem occured on "Century" range. A spectator was hit in the scalp and he was standing to the right of where the bus was parked, almost in line with the motorbike. I can't tell you which stage the splash back was from and at the time I didn't care, that part of the problem was dealt with by Barry Pollard, I was only interested in helping the casualty, fortunately it was only a scratch. I guess the shrapnel could have come off 2 or 3 stages on that range but I can't remember which ones had poppers.
Sorry I can't be more specific.
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FYI
The current IPSC Shotgun rules already have this as a DQ penalty. It first applied when the 2002 rules were accepted for a one year trial and these have now been carried over to 2003.
The UK has operated this rule for SG for as many years as I can remember.
We have had only a very few DQs as a result and I can even think of some years where nobody has had to walk. Competitors are perfectly happy to accept the rule and consider minimum distances carefully when planning a stage.
As head of the mobile/floating range team at WSX I had to attend 3 accidents where spectators or crew (not the competitor) were hit by shrapnel. All 3 needed medical attention, 2 ended up needing a visit to hospital. One of these guys had a significant piece of copper jacket embedded not more than 1/2 inch from his jugular.
I support a rule to include a DQ and I think some are worrying too much about this being a harsh penalty. Once the penalty is in place and known about, and with 2 charge lines or some other physical barrier being in place, there will hardly ever be a DQ because the competitor wants that even less than the RO.
Therefore the DQ penalty isn't really a big problem, and you're not about to see loads of competitors heading for an early bath, but it will have a significant impact on holding competitors back from getting too close.
I say too close based on the 10m rules as stated. I'm not trying to argue whether 10m is too close as a distance, that's for others to decide and a limit does need to be stated.
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Mike
Thanks for the sentiment but I'm only just hanging on to my grade now. I'm way off my best which goes back to 1998. The bones are tired and creaking. Aaaaaagh!
Just occasionally I put it together but mostly I out think rather than out shoot the others.
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Kurt - There should be a dedicated web site up and running any day now. The match is already on the IPSC calendar. I'll post a message as soon as I become aware that it's there (I'll find out pretty quick).
Some further info:
Dates: 26-30 August 2003
Location Terni, Italy. About 45-50 miles to the NE of Rome.
Sufficient local accomodation.
Probably 21 stages, 290-300 rounds
When a few of us went out there in July we had a very warm welcome but there were some language difficulties - it's very much an Italian town.
Check out the Divisions in the 2003 rule book so you know where you will sit. Limited Division is virtually the same as US Standard Division. Open is very similar but no restriction on the number of rounds that the gun can hold.
I wouldn't be too intimidated by the standard of shooting, I'm sure the best from the US and indeed elsewhere should be able to hold their own. Actually it's all a bit of an unknown because there have been so few shotgun matches between the IPSC Regions.
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All the top times for loading in the UK are achieved with the gun upside down and held real close to the belt. Surprisingly perhaps not always using Eezi-loaders. In my case I cradle the gun in my right hand with my right thumb debressing the latch (no Eezi-loader). I twist the cartridges into the tube with my forefinger positioned on the primer and using an elasticated belt. Some guys are using the Pro-dec ( Have I spelt that right?) belts.
The consensus in the UK is that choked guns achieve better results compared to changes to cartridge shot sizes. We use between modified to full chokes and cartridge sizes from 4s to 7 1/2s but mosty 5s and 6s. Most cartridges are 32gram (1 1/8) but some just use 1 ounce loads.
With 1 or 2 exceptions in the UK I think that generally the US shooter is achieving better splits.
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Actually whilst we're on the subject (well almost) I strongly dislike the expression "Accidental Discharge".
In my humble opinion the only "accidental" discharges are related to gun malfunctions. All other instances are "Negligent Discharges" caused by a competitor problem. I would love to see IPSC rewrite the references to ADs.
Also should the list relating to Unsafe Gun Handling be definitive or should the list be changed to: "examples of Unsafe Gun Handling"? What about the RO being able to tackle unexpected (undefineable) events/issues?
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Sorry Vince! I agree with Omnia1911 about 10.3.2.5. I believe the responsibility should rest with the competitor not the RO. The RO is there to make a further check not to take the responsibility.
Besides any time the gun goes bang unintentionally it's dangerous. It's luck if the round goes into the backstop. The competitor's messed it up and in these circumstances the round could so easily escape the range.
I will be arguing within the Co-ordinating Committee to follow the US thinking on this one.
On the other hand I'm not so fired up that I can't live with it and if I get out voted I would rather keep SG aligned.
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I've seen some funny sights with speedloaders, both in the UK and in Italy in July this year. Few were using them effectively.
I guess the art has been refined somewhat in the US.
Personally I prefer a Division without speedloaders but believe we need to provide for them as well.
As Mike has said the top UK guys can load and shoot 6 plates in under 7 seconds. This from an empty start, gun held in both hands at waist level and not touching any cartridges (close but not touching). The gun will be held in the preferred loading orientation - mostly upside down! I know this was discussed in another thread - Limited Shotgun reloads, see below.
http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...=2&topic=26
The top 3 or 4 UK guys can break 6.5 seconds. My personal best is 6.31 seconds, with 6 rounds loaded and first shot in 4.68 seconds, targets close in at about 7 yards. But then this was a while back and on a good day. I'm old and decrepit now!
Do I recall correctly that the gun upside down for loading style was the subject of some banter involving kellyn or am I getting confused with A N Other. In any case I'm with you who ever it was.
And as for Mike - he's right! He needs every edge he can get
In another thread Mike has posted about about looking forward to the Europeans next year. There has been very little cross Region shotgunning and so we don't have much to compare things by. It will be interesting.
It's not the winning that's important,
It's not being caught blubbering when you get thrashed by some one much better than matters.
I got a special deal on smileys in bulk for this email!
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I have to agree with Vince and the others that have said do nothing.
This is based on an absolute desire to assist and be fair to competitors. All competitors.
If I RO on Saturday but not on Sunday I want to fair to the competitors who shoot on Sunday. I can't guarantee that the Sunday RO will be as vigilant on will even apply the same assistance.
So by helping someone on Saturday I may be doing a huge dis-service to someone on Sunday.
To be fair we must ALL say nothing.
I know and support the idea of helping the new guys and we often have a trophy for the best "Novice". If you help one and not another you can cheat one of them out of their first trophy.
One of the worst cases of "help" I've seen is at the end of a stage with a miss in the final target grouping. "Are you sure you're finished" said the RO. This was to help a Novice who'd had brain fade.
The RO genuinely wanted to encourage the newbee by not letting him have a rubbish score because of a miss but of course only deals with the novice who had a miss in the last group of targets but not the first group.
Ironically by the time the RO had uttered his words of "help" and by the time the novice had reacted, reloaded and shot the target the additional time knocked back the resultant score. I had words!
This is a dreadful example of why we must not interfere.
If you want to help - don't help!
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Probably a pump!!!
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I've been following the replies in another thread about magazine capacities for pistols and the law which may sunset in 2004.
Presumably this would apply to shotguns as well?
If the law goes would it change anyone's views on the current USPSA restriction in Open of 11 rounds?
European Shotgun Championships 2
in Multi-Gun, Rifle & Shotgun Match Announcements
Posted
KURT
The rule (SG 5.3.6) is explicit and only refers to clothing.
Unless there was a Regional law that prevented a camouflaged gun being used I can't see how the gun could be banned. In any case I would be surprised if this would cause any problems in the Italian Region. I'm sure SKYWALKER67 will be able to confirm.
We're proposing revised wording for 2004 to be universally adopted across HG, R and SG but the rule still only refers to "garments".
Hopefully SKYWALKER will also be able to answer your previous enquiry about which type of Winchester cartridges will be available but from the table of shot sizes I posted earlier this element isn't a problem.