Neil Beverley
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Posts posted by Neil Beverley
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Early in this thread kurtm refers to a useful shotgun target and I've created a new thread with pictures and some extensive notes here
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Hi Dave
I had tried using the IMG tag but I was getting an error message but I've sorted it now. Thanks.
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In another thread kurtm started to discuss a target design he had seen in Italy. At the ESC match they used targets based on a variation of a target that I designed in the UK and which we have been using very successfully in matches for some 6 years now.
Later I'll add some commentry about the design considerations. Sun 14 September - NOW ADDED!
The targets are very easy to reset and consistent every time. Reset time is very fast.
The spacing between other targets and in particular the relationship with penalty targets is very precise.
They always fall when properly hit and there is no doubt that they have fallen, no turning sideways.
They still work well at longer distances.
They are suitable for birdshot and buckshot.
IPSC rules for SG permit any size of plate between a minimum of 15cms x 15cms (5.9 x 5.9 inches) and a maximum of 45cms x 30cms (17.7 x 11.8 inches). Recommended sizes are 15cms x 15cms, 20cms x 15cms and 25cms x 20cms. In the UK we mostly use 20 x 15 (say 8 x 6 ins) and some 25cms x 20cms (10 x 8 ins).
Please note that the standard base of 15 x 15 cms (6 x 6 inches) has been thoroughly tested and works easily up to the 25 x 20 cms target. The base will probably work with larger sizes as well but we haven’t tried it.
If you use rectangular targets they will sit in the base just as easily horizontally as well as vertically. Providing you maintain consistency in a match this adds to the versatility of the target.
If you paint one side red and leave the other side natural colour then at club level and for practice days you have interchangeable shoot and penalty targets to be used to suit. This adds to the flexibility of the target use.
“Splashback” is minimal and the range crew in particular are grateful for this. I’m no engineer but I’m sure that this is as a result of the forward angle of the plates and possibly because when they are hit they travel backwards along with the shot and the shot isn’t reflected back up range.
After repeated use you will find that lead fouling starts to build up in the locating slots but this is easily cleaned out with a screwdriver or similar tool.
Over the years that we have been using them I haven’t noticed any significant warping of the plates. The surfaces remain nicely flat.
These images show 4 holes in the corners so they can be nailed to timber supports, benches beams, etc. The holes are 7mm in diameter (I would suggest 0.3 in equivalent) and we’ve found that they can be staked into position into the ground using 15cm / 6 in nails or similar pegs. They usually stay firm in place for up to say 70-80 competitors. The bases have also seen short spikes (2) welded to the base to they can be hammered into the ground or longer single spikes to raise the height to suit. All methods work well but for storage the targets as pictured take up very little room.
With an early prototype I tried simply welding the front posts in place but it soon became clear that they weren’t going to last long so I had the posts set into the base and then welded and there hasn’t been a single front post dislodged in 6 years of use. It should go without saying that all welding is kept away from the locating slot.
I chose to use a round front post as being the most suitable but others have tried using a blade angled up from front to back at about 45 degrees. This design was only welded in place and didn’t catch on. I also decided to use 2 front posts whereas 1 would probably do. I reckoned that 2 would be more reliable and I was able to move them to the sides rather than a single post in the centre. I figured that most shots are aimed at the centre so up close the posts don’t get hit much anyway and at distance there is only a small surface area on the posts and the shot pattern has spread out significantly.
Square front posts could be used but only if set at an angle of 45 degrees, so from the front a diamond shape is presented. A flat square post parallel to the target creates an opportunity for more splashback as the post stays firmly in place and will reflect the shot. They would also create greater resistance to impact which is more likely to disturb the base. However, if set at 45 degrees my logic tells me that the shot will “slip” past and onto the target instead, Finally this also avoids too much surface contact and possible resistance as the target “twists” out of the slot when shot.
On this subject I noticed during the prototype testing that the front lower edge of the strike plate was slightly snagging on the front posts when falling so I added a small radius to the edge and the strike plates now exit smoothly every time. Make sure you add this radius to the top and bottom and the side as well if you are likely to use them horizontally. Honestly guys, it’s not worth skipping this in the manufacturing process – it really does make a difference.
On the first batch that I had produced I chose to only use a back retaining lug 5mm (0.2 ins) high. I suspect, but haven’t proved, that this could be a little higher. If made a little higher it may give a better still retention but if too high may start to snag the target as it falls.
What we have noticed is that the only wear on the targets is on this back lug and the older ones have been burred over quite a lot. Some are becoming a bit of a problem for resetting now but after 6 years heavy usage I’m not too unhappy. They just need some maintenance on these lugs and they should be good for another 5 or so years. If I personally had some more produced I would discuss with the engineering company either using a harder material to resist this burring or I’ve also considered fitting a threaded bolt and then using a large nut which could be replaced when it starts to get worn. Either way I’m sure that this is a very minor issue that hasn’t really been too much trouble and can be fixed anyway.
If the plates are set fairly close to where they are likely to be shot from they will fly backwards a short distance. To avoid them tumbling into another target and accidentally knocking it over it is possible to drill a hole in the strike plate and bolt on a length of suitable chain which is then staked to the ground or otherwise fixed in place. This limits how far the plate travels and avoids all problems as described above. We have found that this is best fixed to the low outside edge of the plates.
Heavier (thicker) plates could be used if the locating gap is adjusted accordingly and the targets wouldn’t travel so far but may become harder to knock over at distance. Based on my experiences to date I reckon that the 10mm (0.39 ins) steel that I chose has been close to ideal.
Kurtm has suggested that these targets might also work for rifle and handgun and my only concerns would be the front posts. I’m happy to let some other brave sole take up the challenge.
A detailed drawing can be found in the IPSC 2004 Shotgun rule book – Appendix C3. It’s also in the 2003 rule book under a different appendix number. I have the original drawing as an AutoCAD .dwg drawing if anyone wants it and lets me have their email address and I’ll happily forward it on. Don’t expect a brilliant technical drawing, I’m an enthusiastic amateur rather than an engineer and the success of the target has been more luck than sound technical knowledge!
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I distinctly recall one particular stage where in response to the RO's question "do you have any questions", I replied that there were one or two points that I would like to touch upon. Somehow I suspect that we ended up talking to crossed purposes.
C'est la vie!
I was happy, even if he didn't understand where I was coming from!
Happy memories!
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George
Can I add my welcome to you to this forum. We had a great time together as a squad and that is how it should be. I look forward to meeting you again in the future.
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The lady in question certainly gets my vote if only I could remember what the vote was about, I sorta got distracted on the way!
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benelli2
The simple answer is that we have removed the 10% restriction for 2004, i.e. there will be no limit on the number of frangible targets from 2004 onwards.
However I wouldn't want to see an all clays match so any match should see a mixture of target use.
You may also be interested in rules 9.4.1 and 9.4.1.1:
9.4.1 Scoring hits on IPSC targets will be scored in accordance with the values approved by the IPSC General Assembly. (See Appendices B and C). Frangible targets will usually score 5 points.
9.4.1.1 In order to recognize a difficult shot in a course of fire, a small number of metal and/or frangible targets may score double value for a hit. The use of such targets is restricted to not more than 10% of the total number of targets in the match. Their use must have been approved during the course review process and they must be clearly identified in the written stage briefing.
Please note that the 10% restriction in this rule refers to the number of double value targets and not the number of frangible targets.
This new provision will be particularly useful in the case of disappearing targets where, taking Italy as an example, we witnessed many cases of targets being ignored because to shoot them had a negative result on a competitor's score. By declaring these targets as double value targets they would have been worth shooting and then we create a worthwhile shooting challenge once more.
I'm away on a business trip at the moment but when I return I intend to post some photos of the metal target design that Kurt referred to. This may be useful if you're looking to add some extras. The ESC match used an adaptation of this design and the setting is very precise each time. Also there are seldom disputes as a result of target failure. If they are hit they fall!
Also please consider some buckshot only stages using either paper only targets or a mixture of paper and metal targets. Please check out the new paper target design in the appendices of the 2004 IPSC Shotgun rule book. There are 2 targets that can be Xeroxed and the cost then becomes so cheap that they are disposable after each competitor so no patching delays/problems. Only the highest 2 pellet strikes count for score. The rules also permit a match organiser to declare that only certain types of buck may be used so you could nominate say only 00 buck (9 ball) to be used. Even if there are 9 hits on target you would still only score the 2 highest. In reality the targets only have an A zone and a C zone and were modelled from the IPSC Metric target.
To add in one or two buck only stages can add extra interest to a match and you can push out the distances slightly more than you can with birdshot.
Just a thought!
I hope this helps.
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Guys
It’s all very easy to let these discussions detract from the very substantial benefits which will result from this match.
Until now IPSC Shotgun has only been shot at Regional level and hasn’t particularly attracted much global attention.
Setting any other comments aside this match has certainly proved that IPSC Shotgun has a very positive future and has demonstrated that the discipline is every bit as exiting and as viable as handgun and rifle. There were a number of observers who were able to witness how it can work within their regions.
I am aware that there have been some concerns expressed about some aspects of the match but we must take care that this does not lessen what has been significantly achieved and which sets a path for bigger and better things in the future.
Taking this subject on it’s own I for one am extremely grateful to the Italian Region for pressing ahead with the match. I have no intention to be dismissive of any other claims or concerns but for me I consider that the sport itself has been a big winner overall.
Onwards and upwards, and with the benefit of some valuable lessons leaned!
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Kurt
I'll let you have copies of anything I have or get sent but it'll be a few days before I can do much because I'm off to a trade fair for 5 days from tomorrow.
Also I have some video of the shootoffs, the closing ceremony and a bit of the range. I got your runs on the shootoffs from near as dammit side on so looks pretty good. Also I got Roberto and the Fin. I'll let you know what formats I can produce when I get back from my business trip and then I'll send you an appropriate CD.
I'll email you later today 3 pictures sent to me from Luciano, the Italian RO, on Stage 3.
It was great sharing the match with you and a pleasure to shoot in such a good squad. It was either Owe or Michael (I was a bit hazy at the time) said that in all his years shooting ours was the best squad he had ever had the pleasure to shoot with and I concur wholeheatedly with these sentiments.
I echo Vince's comments about the opening ceremony, the cheer was almost deafening, but it did look like a long walk to your final position. I trust you behaved yourself with your escort?
I'm sorry to hear of your problems on the way home.
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I have previously been in favour of allowing video evidence, after all it could have been another tool to aid an Arbitration Committee.
Then someone pointed out that we could see a scenario developing (for some competitors) where they start asking a friend to video every stage and then they decide if there's anything useful to them on the video to support an appeal or arbitration. The person behind the lens becomes the competitors private and pet RO and only to be used at their discretion.
I thought long and hard before (reluctantly) voting to ban video evidence. I'd rather suffer the occasional error from an RO than see videos used as a weapon against every RO call.
I agree with others here that we need to maintain faith in our Range Officers (and due to a shortage of robots some of these have been replaced by humans).
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Kurt
Hitting the tab as you describe should never have resulted in a DQ. It's just a wrong decision. The tab is provided for a specific purpose. It lies alongside the trigger guard and it's use doesn't require the finger to enter the trigger guard.
My comments about 10.3.13 were solely related to releasing the tab/round by pulling the trigger.
The DQ for "fingering" the tab should never have been called. The RM should have overturned it. The Arbitation Committee should have overturned it. Were there any other factors involved?
This action is not that disimilar to operating a button safety on the trigger group, or the action release button on (say) a Mossberg pump or a Winchester pump. These are all about as close to the trigger guard as the release tab on the Benelli.
I was with Mike at a Match on Saturday and I've never seen him shoot better. We discussed then about seeing if we can get you squadded with us. I'm not sure we'll offer much competition but we'll enjoy your company. I suspect the only UK guys that would challenge you are shooting in Modified division and Mike and I are only normally shooting around 90-92% of their scores. Mikes problem is he's still climbing the ladder and he's meeting me as I descend it!
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Kurt
The easy answer is that the 2003 IPSC rules were worded so as to place the restriction on mag tube capacity specifically with the intention to allow the Benellis to take advantage of the extra round on the carrier.
At the time of writing there was a feeling that Limited Division should be an 8 round division but this placed an artificial restriction on Benellis. Most manufacturers decsribed their guns as having 8 round capacity but this was based on 2 3/4 inch cartridges and their springs and followers.
For 2004 The SG Rules committee decided that this would be better described as 9 rounds max for the initial load (8 rounds max if an empty chamber) and not only did this level the playing field with the Benellis but also made sure that "out of the box" guns that can hold 9 rounds aren't unnecessarily restricted. For instance Mossberg 500s will hold 9 rounds if 2 1/2 shells are used. The 590 as well I believe and there are some Remington extension tubes that change from 8 rounds total to 9 rounds total depending on whether 2 3/4 inch or 2 1/2 inch cartridges are used.
I know the US already had 9 as the limit and speaking to Mike V. this was partly because of the situation with the Benellis.
So for this year we have to work with what we've got but next year it's worded better and is fairer all round.
Having said all this, and while the intention is clear, Rule 8.1 (option 2) isn't as clear as it should be. I have already written about this subject to the RM and MD and I'm sure Orimar will pick up on this subject as well. Nevertheless I will raise the subject again and I'm due to write to the RM again soon anyway.
Turning to your other (now redundent?) questions I would first ask- what "finger straight" rule?
However, you would fall foul of 10.3.13 and possibly 10.3.14 unless you stayed static.
10.3.13 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading or unloading.
10.3.14 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in accordance with section 8.5.
By way of some further info on this, I was RM at the Level III match at Terni last year and the extra round on the carrier wasn't an issue it was just the accepted practice.
As soon as I hear anything relevant from the RM I'll let you know.
In the meantime I hope this helps.
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Hi All
I constantly monitor the Forums and will be happy to help with queries regarding Shotgun matters.
I'm sure either Vince or myself will be happy to forward any queries regarding the Rifle rules to the Chairman of the Rifle committee.
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Carlos,
We revised things slightly from the earlier wording and I've pasted below the final rifle wording that will be put to the IPSC World Assembly for a vote.
The significant changes are that we now allow the action to be locked open or closed onto the chamber flag. Making chamber flags mandatory has offered this as a sensible option and the subject of dust covers was discussed.
Any device that is clearly visible, and that acts as a chamber block directly, or any other device that prevents the action being fully closed, will conform in my book. It conforms with the "chamber safe" concept.
The wording is just about the same for SG and Rifle but for SG only I've deleted 5.2.1.7. This was at the request of a number of people including Mike V. and again with mandatory chamber flags we felt we were adequately covered.
Vince has quoted elsewhere the volume of work that has gone into these revised rules. The task has been that much more difficult because we've really strived for improved rules that will, where possible, serve all 3 disciplines. The process has resulted in some very interesting "discussions" and in the end I fully agree with Vince that this will prove to be a good set of rules and one that hopefully we can all hang our hats on.
5.2.1 Carry and Storage - Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, the competitor’s rifle (shotgun) must be unloaded and carried or stored in one of the following conditions. At the discretion of the Range Officer, failure to comply may incur a warning or may be subject to the provisions of Rule 10.5.1.
5.2.1.1 Slung from the shoulder with the rifle reasonably vertical. The action must remain open or be closed onto the chamber flag, or
5.2.1.2 Carried/shouldered with the rifle reasonably vertical. The action must remain open or be closed onto the chamber flag. Match Directors may require this to be “vertically upwards” or “vertically downwards” providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner, or
5.2.1.3 Placed in racks, or otherwise placed, with the muzzle pointing in a direction as specified by a Range Officer. The action must remain open or be closed onto the chamber flag. Match Organizers should make available, within easy access to all stages, sufficient gun racks for the numbers of competitors attending the match, or
5.2.1.4 Carried in a slip or case (it is preferred that the rifle is carried reasonably vertical).
5.2.1.5 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or device, that is clearly visible externally to the gun, at all times when the rifle is not in use (except whilst carrying out the activities permitted under Rule 2.4.1).
5.2.1.6 Under no circumstances, except when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct instruction issued by a Range Officer, will the rifle (shotgun) be loaded (see Rule 10.5.13) or have empty detachable magazines fitted except that a competitor may practice the insertion and removal of empty detachable magazines while in a Safety Area.
5.2.1.7 Within the provisions of Rule 5.2.1 no ammunition of any kind is permitted on the gun, or in clips or loops fitted to the gun, or to a sling fitted to the gun except when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct instruction issued by a Range Officer.
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I concur with some other comments here that the Arras matches were superb. The stages in the tunnels were awesome. Shooting in the park was, shall we say, novel. And then there was going to the club toilets with people blasting JUST outside!!! They had to put steel up against the window "just in case".
I had a lot of fun at the matches I went to there and it was only 4.5 hours from home in England.
Is there anyone from this Forum who was there the year that the spectator stand collapsed? Was that intense for a while or what?
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BPiatt
USPSA 12.1.8 seems clear to me - you can't change barrels from stage to stage. You could only change barrels if the original becomes unserviceable.
I hope this helps.
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Mike,
Generally I would recommend having at least one round spare in the gun at all times through a stage but then run the gun dry on the last target. However, occasionally there can be some sense in having a spare round left at the end of a stage.
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Kurt,
I'm looking forward to meeting you in Italy and I'm particularly interested to watch you shoot.
I was always regarded as being pretty quick when reloading, about 0.6 - 0.7 seconds per round, but there is a definite downside in that my technique means that I drop the gun to belt level, hence my comments.
I agree with your comments about being able to monitor what's going on through periferal vision. Even with the gun at belt level I can keep an eye on where I'm at.
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I would argue that there may be some occasions where it can be better to load from a static position but mostly I would advise to load while moving.
I try to plan to find a minimum number of shooting positions to shoot the targets. On a long (field) course the fewer the number of shooting positions the longer the distances between the positions and these longer gaps can be exploited for loading. I personally don't favour a lot of shooting on the move unless I've got enough shells in the gun for all the targets to be shot.
If you lower the gun to load (as I do) then plan to arrive at your next shooting with the loading complete AND the gun mounted in the shoulder and ready to fire. I see many people load on the move but their timing is wrong and they are static and in sight of shootable targets but are still bringing the gun up. It surprises some just how much ground can be travelled while you complete this final action.
I would advise that you should plan how many rounds you want to, or need to, load between shooting positions and then move at a speed appropriate to the distance to be travelled, the rounds to be loaded and with the intention of arriving with the gun in the shoulder ready to shoot. As Eric as already stated this will often be a walking pace, sometimes quite slow, sometimes brusque, sometime a run is correct. As I've already said above let the other factors dictate how fast you move and you can virtually travel for free, time wise.
Finally I would say that if you're only planning to load 1 or 2 rounds, or perhaps sometimes 3, then this can be time inefficient because there is a time cost everytime you take the gun out of the shoulder and this is better spread over a larger number of rounds being loaded rather than just 1 or 2.
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Lee, We had to do some sole searching on the question of side saddles etc, within the the context of 5.1.2.7.
In answer to your query as to what it means "Within the provisions of Section 5.1.2" : it means that no ammo to be held in loops or clips on the gun while the gun is being carried around between stages or while left unattended.
The is a real concern about the extra time that it may take at a match to conform but at bigger matches there is no reason why the "stage hustler" can't supervise the loading of these loops and clips while the stage is being reset from the last competitor. This will speed things up.
But ultimately we put safety before expediency and I can assure you we explored some alternatives.
Please consider the situation with rounds on the gun and a trip to a safety area where no ammo is allowed, so now we have unsupervised shooters having to handle ammo on the gun perhaps just a couple of inches away from a loading port. And then when they've finished in the safety area should they be allowed to load rounds back on to the gun. Think about it. We set up safety areas so people can mess with their guns and these safety areas should include a safe direction or backstop. We insist on no ammo to be handled (in a safety area) for further safety, and then we allow a situation with side saddles where unsupervised, not in a safe area, anywhere on a range competitors can fiddle with ammo and gun and in very close proximity to where it all goes bang.
I know of one specific incident where a round fell out of a cartridge belt and landed in the action of a gun on a rack, a gun belonging to a different shooter.
What about the potential for rounds becoming dislodged from the clips while the gun is in a gun slip because it could just happen? So now we perhaps have a gun with the action open and loose rounds being mixed together in a slip or case. Can you imagine this at a handgun match? Un-holster, put gun in a case and then chuck in a few loose rounds just for good measure?
Regrettably it seems that many of us have witnessed incidents of poor gun handling particularly involving muzzle direction, your own comments support this. I'd rather be not swept at all but if it's going to happen I'd rather it be an unloaded gun than a loaded gun. (I'd rather be missed by a .45 than hit by a .22
)I don't know about the rest of you but I've been surprised by some handgun shooters who are ultra safe with a handgun and who then change heads when they pick up a longarm. They fully support the concept of holsters being a safety device, they won't touch the gun except in a safety area and then no ammo, they case/un-case their guns in a safety area - good safe gun handling. And then some (and certainly not all) pick up a shotgun, or a rifle, and all their standard safety principles go down the toilet. Can anyone tell me why this happens? Perhaps it's because they're not like real guns?
Anyway, guys, I am sorry about this one, I know it'll be a bit of a pain sometimes but on balance it was safety thing versus a bit of extra time and who wants to save time so we can get shot sooner:huh:
Overkill,
Impecable gun handlingOh I wish! Unfortunately even in the few comments we've seen in this topic it is clear that for some this simply doesn't happen.
So much of today's rule books is written to tackle incidents that have been known to happen and to try to be ready for it happening again. The first rule book I used was IPSC 7th Edition, September 1986. I still occasionally have a flick through the pages. Boy, have we added some stuff!
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My post just missed the postings from the 2 Erics and I've already answered some of the points raised. I'll paste below the entire section from the rules for your thoughts. The rule 10.6.2 referred to deals with issues that may cause a match DQ to be issued.
5.1.2 Carry and storage - Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, the competitor’s shotgun must be unloaded and carried or stored in one of the following conditions. At the discretion of the Range Officer, failure to comply may incur a warning or may be subject to the provisions of Rule 10.6.2.
5.1.2.1 Slung from the shoulder, with the action open and with the shotgun reasonably vertical, or
5.1.2.2 Carried/shouldered with the shotgun reasonably vertical and with the action open. Match Directors may require this to be “vertically upwards” or “vertically downwards” providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner, or
5.1.2.3 Placed in racks, or otherwise placed, with the muzzle pointing in a direction as specified by a Range Officer and with the action open. Match Organisers should make available within easy access to all stages, sufficient gun racks for the numbers of competitors attending the match, or
5.1.2.4 Carried in a slip or case (it is preferred that the shotgun is carried reasonably vertical).
5.1.2.5 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or device, that is clearly visible externally to the gun, at all times when the shotgun is not in use (except whilst carrying out the activities permitted under Section 2.4.1).
5.1.2.6 Under no circumstances, except when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct instruction issued by a Range Officer, will the shotgun be loaded (see 10.5.13) or have empty detachable magazines fitted except that a competitor may practice the insertion and removal of empty detachable magazines while in a Safety Area.
5.1.2.7 Within the provisions of Section 5.1.2 no ammunition of any kind is permitted on the gun, or in clips or loops fitted to the gun, or to a sling fitted to the gun except when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct instruction issued by a Range Officer.
I will be interested in your comments.
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Hi All
Thanks for the comments, I get the impression we're all pretty much in favour so far.
I've heard the flags referred to as "Breech Safety Flags", "Breech Flags", "Chamber Flags" and also "Chamber Safe Flags" and I had to settle on a form of wording that would hopefully suit all. "Chamber flags" seemed to be the most commonly used expression. The actual new proposed rule reads:
5.1.2.5 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or device, that is clearly visible externally to the gun, at all times when the shotgun (rifle) is not in use (except whilst carrying out the activities permitted under Section 2.4.1).
I'm happy that all of the devices that have been referred to herein will act to help render the chamber safe.
Prices start at around $1.25 so the cost isn't going to be an issue. I can see some competitors simply pocketing the devices and some ROs will pocket them on behalf of the competitors until the end of a stage.
One of the devices brought to my attention was a banana shaped piece of plastic (bright yellow) with a square flag on one end. The device is held in place in the chamber under it's own tension and the flag juts out to the side. So as well as obstructing the chamber it would also prevent the action from closing. I've seen other devices that fit in place with long bright ribbons attached. The devices that Lee and Eric refer to would be great as well.
Mike, While the rule says a flag or device must be used when the gun is not in use except when in a Safety Area (Section 2.4.1), the revised 5.1.2 says except when under the supervision of an RO. So if an RO says "go get your gun you're up next" and the flag is removed over at the gun rack then you're arguably still under the supervision of the RO. The level of supervision is dependant on the requirements at the time.
The new rules (for both Shotgun & Rifle) on Carry & Storage state that the action must be open but any device that prevents the action from fully closing must achieve "action open" status. However, everyone will feel more comfortable if they can see the action fully open as well as a chamber flag.
I haven't differentiated between in or out of a slip or case because I don't see a problem with leaving them fitted and then as the gun is removed from a case it immediately complies with 5.1.2.5 without having to mess around.
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Personally, I think chamber flags should be mandatory, but I am not King and probably for good reason. EricW
Eric
You may be pleased to learn that the proposal for the 2004 rules for IPSC Shotgun and IPSC Rifle is that the use of chamber flags is to be mandatory. They're cheap and quick to fit, so minimal hardship.
On the other hand I'm aware that there will be some who would support their use as a recommendation but not as a mandatory rule. Indeed this was my own view initially but the more I looked at it the more I felt it wasn't a big deal and for some a recommended rule is a "never" rule.
Are there any strong feelings on this?
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Kurt
I've had a reply from the MD as below. If I hear anything further I'll let you know.
Grazie Neil,I will try again to understand what's happening.
Thank you very much.
Riccardo
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Ipsc Shotgun Separating Plates
in Shotgun - Technical
Posted
Hi All,,
I've now added extensive notes about the targets to the original posting. I will fully understand if you nod off while reading through!
Kurt, I really like your idea about sending a nickle a time but you must surely have typed it wrong and really meant for each time shot? Otherwise I guess I'll have to continue selling swag for some time yet. Anyone want to buy large quantities of inflatable Bonking Sheep? A guy's got to earn a living!