Neil Beverley
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Posts posted by Neil Beverley
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You might like to consider including some tight penalty targets. Set them so that they can be shot from one position with a carefully measured shot, perhaps even having to aim off slightly, but then also provide for the competitor to be able to move a short distance (perhaps only 3-4 steps to the side) to have a clear shot.
The competitor then choses take the time to take the difficult shot, and still risk a possible penalty, or take the time to move to a different position.
It is possible to set up short courses of say 6 - 8 targets that can be shot from a single location with really tough shots but have open and easy targets if the competitor uses 2 - 3 locations.
Also please consider nominating a stage as being buckshot only and then adding some paper targets (could be all paper or mixed paper and metal). Score the highest 2 pellet strikes only. Add in penalty paper targets and again only count a max of 2 pellet strikes. With scoring targets and nearby penalty targets set fairly tight at say around 20 yards or more, competitors are going to have to think about their pattern spread.
I understand the problems of trying to patch buckshot but please note that there is an IPSC paper target that can be photo copied onto standard copy paper in either Ansi A (US letter) or Ansi B sizes. These are cheap enough to be disposable per competitor and therefore no patching.
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Hi All
For the record, while the IPSC handgun rules state that paper targets must be used exclusively in FT or VC stages, it is permitted to use solely metal targets in FT and VC shotgun and rifle stages (IPSC). There is no requirement to have even a single paper target. However, please note that if paper targets are included it is recommended that they be disappearing targets.
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twix
The consensus here is unambiguous. There is one more thing you could try before the final sanction.
Why not email him a link to this thread and he will be able to see for himself that any decision to DQ is not you being a range nazi but is an action supported by a great many experienced shooters.
A gypsy's warning .....................
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Mike
I can't make it at the weekend, I'm finishing off the final touches to a loft extension and moving my step-daughter in.
Have fun.
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Mike
I was chatting to a shotgunner at work today and she told me that under IPSC rules you cannot use sidesaddles etc as they are more than 50mm away from the torso. I have entered a question to Vince on the IPSC questions forum to clarify this for 2003 / 2004 and hopefully I will get to use them.I posted a reply to this query here
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Mike
Uncle Vince has already provided you with a link to download the rules and in addition I could email them to you in PDF format as an attachment.
Side saddles are specifically dealt with:
5.2.4 Ammunition and speed loading devices, must be carried or worn on the competitor in safely designed pouches, pockets, loops, clips or other suitable retention devices unless otherwise specified in the course description. Loops or clips fitted to the shotgun stock, fore-end or receiver, or to a sling fitted to the shotgun, to hold individual cartridges are specifically allowed.
With regards to your query "50mm from the torso":
This should read 50mm from the body - it is an error on my part. We corrected it in the appendices by deleting the reference to "torso" from the 2003 rules and we now simply state "body". Please see below (and taking Standard Division as the example):
16. Max. distance of cartridges or reloading devices from body : 50mmIn the body of the rules it states:
5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor's cartridges or reloading devices may extend away from a competitor's body, a Range Officer may check compliance by measuring the gap between the competitor’s torso and the rims of the cartridges, if held separately in clips or loops, or the center of the longest external dimension of any reloading devices.
In the first sentence we correctly refer to the body and then subsequently left in the reference to torso. How does that happen? I read and re-read the rules over and over.
Anyway there is an outstanding correction that I've proposed to the committee and it awaits ratification.
The bottom line is that forearrm and thigh carriers are intended to be permitted.
Watch this space.
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Just for your info the IPSC Rifle rules have been changed for 2004 to give a wide scope of permitted target designs. The relevant rule is:
4.3.1 Approved metal targets for use in IPSC Rifle matches include any metal target that provides an adequate method of determining hits or misses other than by falling (self-indicating hits). Scoring metal targets by listening for hits is not permitted.
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JFD
It sounds like good news with regards to plate sizes.
Unless you're very careful you may create problems and when you have a good activator then it is probably best to use it just as an activator and avoid the potential for disputes which can spoil otherwise clever designs.I'm not sure that I properly explained that while I'm suggesting using this set up "just as an activator" I still see them as scoring plates and you correctly stated earlier that your plates fall so no problem. Only the size issue could be a problem (until 2004).
In fact you shouldn't introduce any shooting problem that doesn't attract a score.
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Neil
I have forwarded your query by email to Stefanos who is President of the NROI in Greece.
As soon as I hear something I will post a reply.
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JFD
There is no requirement to add a block of wood to the target stand. This is just one suggested design feature. The important factor is to prevent targets that can turn edge-on or sideways and by the sounds of your description your target designs should comply.
While the use of the metal plates as activators is legal and sound like they will be a lot of fun I can't see how having paper targets on the front of them with non scoring C and D zones could be permitted within the rules.
You could consider only presenting the central strip of the paper targets to the same width as the metal targets behind and then cover the C and D zones with either penalty targets or hard cover but from your description it seems there would still be a gap between the upper and lower A zones which wouldn't activate the targets behind.
Unless you're very careful you may create problems and when you have a good activator then it is probably best to use it just as an activator and avoid the potential for disputes which can spoil otherwise clever designs. It would be easier to comment if a photo or diagram could be provided. I'm sure Vince wil also add his views in time.
Until the 2004 rules take effect the sizes of plates for IPSC (for HG) is the same as stated by Eric.
However, from 2004 the permitted sizes for IPSC are as stated below and I've pasted some other relevant rules. I think most on this forum will be aware that the rules are being discussed this weekend by the USPSA BOD and I know that the US representatives of the IPSC rules committees were all in favour of widening the scope of permitted sizes for metal plates.
Handgun:
4.3.1.4 Various sizes of metal plates may be used (see Appendix C3), however metal plates must not be used exclusively in a course of fire. At least one authorized paper target or IPSC Popper must be included in each course of fire.
HG APPENDIX C3
IPSC Plates
Round: 20cm (7.87 ins) minimum - 30cm (11.81 ins) maximum
Square or Rectangular: 15cm (5.9 ins) min each side - 30cm max each side
Shotgun and Rifle:
4.3.1.4 Various sizes of metal plates may be used (see Appendix C3).
SG & R APPENDIX C3
IPSC Metal Plates
Various square or rectangular sizes are permitted providing between: 15cm x 15cm (minimum) and 45cm x 30cm (maximum). Round metal plates are also permitted with a minimum diameter of 15cm and a maximum diameter of 30cm. Preferred sizes are 15cm x 15cm, 20cm x 15cm, 25cm x 20cm and round plates with a diameter of 20cm, 25cm or 30cm.
Scoring value: 5 points. Penalty value: -10points.
In order to enhance course design, it is permissible to have a small number of Metal targets score double value for a hit or a miss in this discipline. Any such targets must be clearly pointed out in the stage briefing and must have been approved during the course review process.
Plates may be used on their own in a course of fire.
9.4.1.1 In order to recognize a difficult shot in a course of fire, a small number of metal and/or frangible targets may score double value for a hit. The use of such targets is restricted to not more than 10% of the total number of targets in the match. Their use must have been approved during the course review process and they must be clearly identified in the written stage briefing.
Shotgun only:
4.3.1 Approved metal targets for use in IPSC Shotgun matches are IPSC Poppers, Metal Plates and Silhouettes. Silhouettes may be used that match the design and overall scoring dimensions of the IPSC Metric or Classic paper targets. All types of Metal Targets may be used as scoring targets or penalty targets. They must be scored in accordance with the relevant Appendices.
Rifle only:
4.3.1 Approved metal targets for use in IPSC Rifle matches include any metal target that provides an adequate method of determining hits or misses other than by falling (self-indicating hits). Scoring metal targets by listening for hits is not permitted.
Incidentally, with regards to target design (mainly for shotgun), you may also find the following link of interest: Separating Plates
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I've got a few minutes (about 20 mins in total) of fairly crude video of the Shootoffs and the closing ceremony.
I can only copy to UK VHS standard or to CDs in mpg format. I wasn't very happy with the mpg quality but the VHS tapes are OK. However I'm an incompetent with regards to editing and haven't even attempted it.
Because of file size issues the footage gets split over 2 CDs. I'm about to order an upgrade to my computer which will come with a video editing suite so who knows ............
For some reason it seems that the sound and pictures are slightly out of sync with each other on the CDs. Kurt, you've seen them. What did you think?
Without any doubt Kurt's reloads are stunning but I would like to add that I've got footage of the Fin in the Shootoffs performing a single round reload and boy, is he quick. One off the wrist, if you'll pardon the expression.
If I get a lot of requests to send a copy then I would have problems but I could probably help with a few.
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Sensei,
The IPSC rules have been changed for 2004 specifically to allow all guns in the division to start with 9 rounds (maximum) loaded in total. This of course applies to Loaded - Option 1 starts. For Loaded - Option 2 starts, i.e. empty chamber at the start, then all guns are restricted to a maximum of 8 rounds at the start.
This has made the division fairer and I believe is a big improvement on the 2003 rules. One big problem with the 2003 rules, which stated a maximum in the magazine tube, was that the Benellis had a one round advantage. On short courses of 8 rounds the Benellis always had a spare round whereas all others had to treat the stage as if a Virginia Count stage because a reload to correct a miss would always be a very expensive (too expensive) option.
Now everyone can start from a level playing field.
- EZ loader (for the Remmy) i can use in the Standard Division ?Yes! From January 2004.
In answer to your final question, and to avoid the anomaly that occurred at the ESC match, the following condition has been added to the division:
29. The maximum round capacity of the gun is restricted and the gun will have exceeded this capacity if it can be physically loaded with 10 x 70mm (2 ¾ inches) rounds at any one time.
Please note that I intend to add a further clarification on this point under Section 11.8 of the IPSC rules by adding a further interpretation of the 70mm cartridges in their unfired state. This length is probably going to be set at around 58 mm unfired length. I'm still researching the options a bit more. This interpretation is necessary to tackle the differences between taper crimp cartridges and roll crimp cartridges with the latter having a longer unfired length.
Therefore the rules will allow that 1 or perhaps even 2 extra cartridges over the 9 at the start could feasibly be loaded after the start signal but does set a restriction to stop it getting silly in numbers. This is only likely to occur with birdshot and perhaps some slug where we see some shorter cases but most buckshot will be too long and the limit throughout any stage will effectively be 9 rounds only for buckshot.
However, just to reiterate the earlier comments - At the start the maximum number of rounds that can be loaded is 9 in total, irrespective of type or gun.
I hope this helps.
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minnesota1/Nik
Please note that for 2004 the IPSC Limited Divisions are renamed IPSC Standard Division and IPSC Standard Manual Division. The latter is to cater for the Regions that want to separately recognise a pump or slide action division. This division would also become the home for the occasional double-barrel only competitor (although we see few of those).
There is no requirement to separately recognise Standard Manual Division at a match, it is an option at the MDs discretion. In the absence of the Manual Division, affected competitors simply enter, or get moved into, the next most appropriate division which is likely to be the main Standard Division. This corrects an anomaly in the 2003 rules and hopefully caters for all regional preferences.
The main differences for the division rules are:
Round capacity is upped to 9 rounds for the initial load for all guns.
Overall capacity after the start signal is redefined so it's feasible to get an extra round in depending on the length of cartridge being used.
Eezi-loaders to replace the standard Remington carrier release button are once more permitted.
These differences aren't huge and moves the division to be virtually, if not exactly, the same as the USPSA Standard Division.
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Snack bar ........... Keep the coffee ............................... !!!
I had already downloaded the Italian Driving thingy! Enough said!
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SIG Lady
Don't fall for that "come back to my place for a coffee" trick. And ignore all offers of him showing you his beans. Or "smell the aroma".
I've met him. I know what's he's like. Very Dodgy!!!
You have been warned!
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Skywalker
You Italians certainly have a different grasp of things to the rest of us.
On discovering:
You write:Your pics are just fine. No spanking needed... this time.Wha-hoooo!!!I survived !!!
I'm thinking "Oh dam! Missed out again!"
It's a question of perspectives. Like James' waistcoat. He thinks it's a fashion statement.
And it is!
John (to Kurt) "You keep him distracted while I get his medication out of the bag."
Terry (to anyone who'll listen) "Can I pretend I'm with you, I don't want people thinking I'm with the waistcoat."
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benelli2
Re "how light is too light"
I have some excellent advice on this which is the same answer as to how much to cut off a mag tube spring -
Remove just enough and no more!
The perfect solution for a perfect gun.
I'm sure this will help.
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Hey Guys
Even in the UK we would not count the said garment as "fashion".
With sincere apologies to James but I can only think of 4 explanations:
1. He was ill
2. He was wearing it for a bet
3. He was wearing it as a joke
4. It was a present from his mum
Of course there could be other explanations ................ ???????
I've certainly never witnessed it being worn before in the UK but somebody, somewhere may know differently?
Again with aplogies to James for whom I will stand a beer to compensate.
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Skywalker
The 2 names are both correct but I don't recall which one was which so I can't help any further with regards to this picture, sorry.
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the shoot-offs show is ready to start...(thanks again Neil)
There I was minding my own business, checking some scores from Friday when I get a tap on the shoulder. "Neil, can you have a quick look at the set up for the shootoffs."
By the aid of spanners, concrete blocks, paint and sweat the shootoffs were ready an hour or so later and only a little late (did I mention sweat?).
Still I did get a ringside seat and I was pleased to be able to help.
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Skywalker
You have correctly identified the shooter in question as Finnish. I'm sorry but I don't recall his name but he won the Limited Semi Shootoff so perhaps, uummmm, the ESC organiser can help!
You correctly identify the next person as a UK shooter - Iain Guy.
As for the balcony scene on the left is John Beazely (UK) and on the right it's James Harris (not Ferris) from the UK and recently a member of these forums.
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That's not Flossy, you two timer!
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Very!
Flossy, as she likes to be called, is particularly cute, takes great care over her appearance and never nags.
Pistol Grip Vis A Vie Straight Stock
in Shotgun - Technical
Posted
Mike: You mentioned image.
What would you know about image?
Just look at some of the people you hang about with.
Come along to my course in February and I'll include a special section on it just for you!
Welcome to the Forum.
Kurt: I've been told they were very bad doors and deserved punishing. Actually they weren't frosted glass they were barn doors .............. and he missed.