Neil Beverley
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Posts posted by Neil Beverley
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Patrick
I've now done what I should have done to start with. I've properly checked the correspondence. That'll teach me!
Like I said I'm not an expert and the Rifle rules weren't my baby.
The IPSC rules have used a minimum PF of 150 for some time, it would appear at least as far back as 2001 and therefore I presume earlier. The committee had several discussions about the PF but nearly all were related to calibration of poppers.
I guess the change for the US is more a case of standardisation rather than anything more specific and certainly nothing to do with making room for 9mm carbines.
There was a query as to whether the likes of 9mm MP5 could play within the rules and there was agreement that providing they can make the PF then why not. There was also a comment that it was going to be real interesting if out to 300 metres.
Then came a comment about a Region being possibly able to stage a match using mostly MP5s at distances less than 100 metres which suited them because of the popularity of the gun in the Region. Again it was commented, why not, it could be within the rules particularly for Level I or II matches.
I repeat, IPSC have not made any change to the PF in the new rules. The USPSA has not dropped the PF in any way connected with any specific guns. 9mm guns playing in matches is in no way connected connected with the PF changes.
My apologies if it read like this was the reason for the change.
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Hi All
I'll start with a disclaimer. I'm not a rifle shooter, so please be gentle with me! That's not to say I haven't shot one or two in my time but I only have limited experience and I'm not currently active.
One of the discussions within the IPSC Rifle Committee involved the PF and the concept that with the minor PF at 150 guns such as the MP5 can come out to play. Perhaps they could before anyhow?
I recall the discussion being that while it will not, and never should, replace true rifle matches it was certainly another option to consider, especially for some Regions, where a match could be put on with targets only out to say 100 yards.
In addition to the MP5 I seem to recall a couple of other guns being discussed and it was felt "why not?".
Before the traditionalists throw their hands up it horror my understanding is that they thought that providing for it simply provided an extra option and if it didn't start to reshape rifle matches then let it happen.
The info above may, of course, be of no interest whatsoever, in which case my apologies for butting in.
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Barrettone
Like I said, I don't claim to be an expert in the USPSA rules but other comments that have been subsequently posted support my understanding.
For IPSC there is no ambiguity. Detachable mags are only permitted in Open Division and are specifically referred to.
Please also bear in mind that the USPSA rules are about to be significantly updated and changed as a result of the new IPSC rules. Arnie was on the IPSC Shotgun Rules Committee and is fully aware of the changes made. In addition Mike V. was keeping an ever watchful eye on the changes we were making. I think that I may have read somewhere that the earliest any new USPSA rules could take effect is May. I believe constitutionally the earliest is determined as 90 days after the changes are publicised in Front Sight.
Mike
IPSC only gets involved in sanctioning in Level III matches and above. Without this sanctioning a match cannot be declared to be a Level III. For Level I & II matches it is left to each Region to establish their own methods for sanctioning/approving matches.
Bill
Please be mindful with these short cartridges that IPSC has a minimum power factor of 520. If the US adopts the same or similar divisional requirements and this particular aspect is adopted it may affect you. Also there is a calibration/test procedure for poppers and plates based on a PF of 520 or just less (for testing think 1 ounce loads at 1180 fps or equivalent [1200fps to make factor]). As we only recognize Major in shotgun if you fail the chrono you would be shooting for fun only. Actually I think we should all be shooting for fun and the scoring is a bonus!
Finally please consider if the short cartidges don't make factor and plates have been set to fall only close to the limit then you may have a problem with some of the plates going down.
I hope the above is of some help. It's going to take some time before people become familiar with a new set of rules.
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As a put down line how about a T shirt with:
"If I wanted to hear from an *sshole I would have f*rted!"
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On another vain... they have Ceramics and composites that are used in/on Armour vehicles. Would those be viable?
I think it will always be correct for the rules committee to consider new options. That is not the same as automatic adoption.
However, like I said, we changed from "steel" to "metal" to widen the scope and if there are other viable and sensible options then I feel sure they can be considered.
I know the Rifle Committee have been considereing alternative methods of registering hits and the feeling is that there's still development to come to offer improvements.
My primary responsibilty is the shotgun rules and I am ever mindful of the potentially destructive nature of the shot on some target designs.
Vince has already flagged some potential problems with penetrable reactive targets. These must be resolved before we could adopt them, we want less problems not more. Flex is suggesting more data gathering and this will all go into the pot.
I primarily like the concept because I'm aware of some ranges that have had problems with shooting metal targets. If they could fly at all it may be that we would have to ban the use with any overlapping or even close other targets, penalty or scoring.
Will the problems outweigh the benefits? It's early days and time will tell. If they're a benefit then the rules should accomodate them and if they're ultimately rejected it will be for a good reason after all due consideration. We can't be fairer than that. Keep the info coming.
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Flex
Ironically the rules committees all agreed to change all instances of "steel" to "metal" specifically to provide for other options other than just steel per se. So our intentions were right. If these targets are consistently reliable it would appear that perhaps we didn't go far enough.
It's too late for this year but I'm sure we'll all be happy to consider these targets going foward. I've added it to my list.
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I think folks in the US use the expression "fanny" with a lot more innocence than in the UK, as in "fanny bag" or "pack"? Have I got that right?
In the UK "fanny" is a regarded as a crude name for the female genitalia. Even a modern British dictionary lists it as a "taboo" word in this context. At the same time gives a US/Canadian definition for it as "buttocks". Is this the correct definition US wise?
An "entrepreneur" near to me cheakily decide to launch a new night club called "Fannies" and heavily marketed it under the heading of:
"Fannies Opening Shortly"
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Just curious:
How many people do you know that have just bought one vs Palm, over there?
Are people buying applications for them?
BerKim
I have insufficient data to properly comment. I know of a couple of friends who are using PDAs, both PocketPCs, but haven't discussed what they're using them for.
Commercially the sales package we're using was written very much with our industry in mind and so it obviously attracts other companies that are similar to ourselves. Additionally we are certainly regarded as one of the major players in the industry and so where we go others follow. this combines to give a slightly biased picture.
I'm off to a big exhibition in a couple of weeks and out of curiosity I'm going to try to assess if there is a bigger take up in the use of PDAs generally and which type people have gone for. If I get anything conclusive I'll let you know.
I would be quite keen to see a proper development of a scoring program for the PocketPCs and in time it's going to become easier and easier to link this to the main scoring server, perhaps relayed via bluetooth or some some radio lan.
Add to this the weatherproof cases that are available for some models and it could be bye bye soggy score sheets.
I guess the problem is going to be who would want to develop it, the market place won't be huge and could be disparate in take up of different systems.
Actually I'd love to have a go but I have very limited programming skills so I would have to start at the beginning. I'm sure in time that I could crack it but I haven't got a hope in hell time wise for some considerable time to come yet. Years rather than months. I have to earn a living.
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If you phone a woman and tell her "I'll be by around two to knock you up." If she's British she knows you'll knock or ring the bell. In the States she'll think you want sex.
Hi Patrick
While we wouldn't think of it specifically as wanting sex it is likely to be connected to "a bun in the oven", so close but not the same.
P*ssed in the US usually seems to mean angry while in the UK it would mean drunk. To change the meaning we would have to say "p*ssed off" (at someone/thing) and then we're on the same track.
A classic misunderstanding is that for a long time condoms in the UK were often referred to under their brand name of "Durex" whereas I understand in Australia "Durex" is a brand name of a sticky tape. So Aussies (Vince!!) be warned! It's probably not a could idea to ask for a roll of Durex in the UK! (Unless the assistant is very good looking!
)When I was exchanging extensive emails with Arnie on the SG rules committee we had one or two misunderstandings. He often laughed at my use of "whilst" and made me change every instance to "while".
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BerKim
We’re using PocketPC PDAs (iPACs) extensively at work particularly, for taking multiple item orders at trade exhibitions. Typically 100+ items from a range of around 8000 products. We scan in a bar code and the appropriate stock and pricing info is displayed. It’s much faster than writing the order by hand. We have over 30 PDAs in use and they’ve been a great success. Orders are printed via an IR link and are subsequently emailed back to our main offices for processing. We hardly have to do anything back at the office but still run them through filters to check for any errors and extravagant pricing, etc.
Some of the sales staff are now using them extensively on the road along with a portable printer.
We chose PocketPC over any Palm system offered and just felt it did the job better.
In the UK it appears there are more sales applications offered on PPC than on Palm.
While we bought in a “sales order taking” package we are looking at starting our own application development in the future. I currently employ 5 programmers but none have any experience in this field just yet and are all very busy on other projects just now.
I bought a “in car navigation” package for my other half, Kathy, for Christmas and I again chose a PocketPC system in preference to a Palm system but largely because it was the same platform as we use at work. She’s over the moon with it and in addition has really taken to Pocket Outlook which she’s fully transferred her diary and addresses to.
I have also created a scoring program in Excel but haven’t quite finished it or yet had the time to test on the PDA. I’m fairly confident it’ll work OK as it’s not particularly complicated.
If I was a betting man I would put money on PocketPC starting to clearly pull ahead of Palm during 2004/5.
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I got tossed out of the place.
Arnie
Arnie
What EXACTLY do you mean?????
This conjures up other meanings to us Brits!!!!
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James
i'll driveThanks! And I think we should drop the morbid black. Maybe some go-faster racer stripes?
Luca
Good choices of music, I'm a particular fan of Floyd, they were great live at concerts, I saw them 3 times and wished it had been more.
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I've given instructions that when my time comes I want it to be done with a lot of humour. There's some good stuff from the Jungle Book which would make me laugh.
I also want to steal an idea from someone else who insisted that the hearse is driven at max speed (sod the speed limits). That seems to fit much of my life and the idea of trashing the normal slow and miserable drive to the shock of many also makes me smile.
Celebrate my life not my death.
Fortunately it's all in the hands of a good friend who should make it rock ........ but not for a long time yet I hope!
An unusual topic from James but a good one nonetheless.
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Patrick
I'm going to be around for the IPSC meetings as well but have to return home on the afternoon of the 12th, unfortunately. I fly in on the Sunday previous (8th).
I hate cucumber but drink tea and have been known to try a beer or two.
When are you arriving?
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I can't claim to be an expert in the USPSA rules by any means but surely there isn't a Limited Division? The equivalent would be Standard Division? There is also reference to "Production Gun" criteria.
From conversations with Mike Voigt I distinctly got the impression that detachable mags weren't permitted in Standard Division. It might be best to get this confirmed?
From the IPSC perspective up until the end of 2003 there was a Limited Division but this has been renamed "Standard Division" and there have been a couple of tweaks to the divsion rules. The USPSA division is very close to this IPSC division.
There is also an IPSC "Modified Division".
For IPSC Shotgun, detachable mags are only permitted in Open Division and there has been no change on this matter in the recent rules rewrite.
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Hi Kees
Welcome to the Forum!
You will find it very informative and your input will be valuable in return.
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Skywalker
The intention is to remove the benefit of any hit on a target which is theoretically no longer there. Therefore if you fire a shot after the signal to cease firing and there is a target or targets capable of being hit then it is assumed that the shot hits a (the) target and this hit is removed from score.
The rule is written to remove the benefit of the hit and please note that it is always assumed that the late shot results in the highest hit on the target so the highest is removed. It is not intended to be a penalty as such but merely to remove any possible benefit from the late shot.
In the case of disappearing targets then they aren't there to receive a hit so we don't remove any hit value.
Think of it as any late shot being completely ignored from the scoring process - if a late shot hits a target then don't count it and if the late shot misses the target then no problem.
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James
Further to my last posting I have copied below some data that I got from Steve C. and Dave A.
Using S&B specials on Sunday and using Steve's "shot" chrono:Through Daves 1187:
1136
1275
1231
1240
1238
1241
The first shot was a bit worrying, but it was the first shot of the day
Through my M3:
1209
1216
1219
1203
By the skin of my teeth.
A conversation followed about why my gun was giving out lower velocity, but we couldn't
decide.
Please note the that the chrono used was old and decrepit and well past it's "Sell By" date.
With regards to the lower figures for the Benelli, Dave wrote:
Strange though as I thought the gas compensation system on the 1187 would have reduced the velocity. Maybe the Benelli just unlocks sooner. Another one of life’s little mysteries!The main thing to note here is how much lower the figures are versus the manufacturers stated velocities.
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James
You will have to be a little cautious with the S & B slugs. Although they state 32 gms when I checked them this weight included the wad. They actually weighed 28 gms.
Therefore 432 grains @ 1250 fps = 540 pf.
Then if you deduct 5 - 10% ............................. !
However, the data I received from S & B is as below:
Dear Sir.Thank you that you shoot with our slug shells.
Our Special Slug SB 05161 has the velocity V2 420 m/s.
SB Special Slug Sport (SB 05193 - 12 x 67,5 and SB 05196 - 12 x 70) have the velocity V2 410 m/s.
I wish you the best shooting results.
Sincerely your
Hykel, Sellier & Bellot
On this basis we should be OK:
The slower slugs from S & B should have a power factor of:
432 x 1345 (= 581040) / 1000 = 581
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Further to my last post:
Please note that the PF of 520 still allows loads such as the Remington rounds below – “Light Target” and “Low Recoil”:
STS12L, Premier® STS® Light Target, 2 3/4", 2 3/4, 1145 fps, 1 1/8 oz, 7½, 8, 8½, 9
STS12LR, Premier® STS® Low Recoil, 2 3/4", 2 1/2, 1100 fps, 1 1/8 oz, 7½, 8
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I'm aware that a 3 Gun match doesn't necessarily equate to a USPSA match and up until now a USPSA shotgun match hasn't really equated to an IPSC shotgun match. However, it seems that the new USPSA rules will be closely aligned with the IPSC rules. I'm not trying to fire up a debate on this, one way or another, but I offer these comments as an intro to my comments below.
For IPSC shotgun there is a minimum PF which is set at 520 (major only, no minor). So while you are looking at cartridge types it may be worth settling on a make and type than can make this PF.
A PF of 520 equates to 1 ounce of lead at 1200 fps (PF = 524). Please note that for avoidance of any doubt we have now specifically stated that the wad is excluded from the weight of the projectile(s).
Everyone at the IPSC European SG Championships was chronoed and generally the PF came up somewhat lower than the manufacturers data would have suggested the result to be. On the plus side only one person failed the chrono and then only by a whisker. There were some other close calls.
KURTM has quite a lot of info about the low recoil slugs with regards to this PF.
I think mostly they're OK but I thought it may be of interest to add the info above.
You will find that gun type probably has a bigger perceived effect and the 1100 and 1187 feel particularly soft compared to some other guns.
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Eric
No! I don't have access to the specs and your offer is a very kind one that I will gladly accept. Thanks very much.
Depending on the number of pages involved is faxing them a possibility?
I will post a PM with my details.
Thanks again.
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I have two queries that I would like some help with please. I'm sure there's a wealth of information out there amongst the members on these forums.
The first relates to what various countries call the sealing process for shotgun cartridges. In the UK we generally refer to "Taper Crimp" - which is mostly birdshot cartridges and "Roll Crimp" - which is mostly buckshot and slugs. Are these commonly used terms?
The second request is an attempt to gather data relating to the overall unfired length of cartridges. I would like to discover the length of as many makes of cartridges as possible. Primarily I'm interested in 2 3/4" (70mm) cartridges but any other cartridge information submitted will be recorded in a data list that I will start.
I expect to find that most 2 3/4" cartridges are around 2.24" (57mm) unfired length for taper crimp and around 2.44" (62mm) for roll crimp.
Please note in the figures above I've quoted the figures in inches to 2 decimal places and I would like to get information to this degree of accuracy. For millimetres to 1 decimal place if possible please.
Many thanks.
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As promised I'm following up on this one.
It has been corrected and the reference to "torso" has been changed to "body" as below. This now propoerly aligns with the statements in the appendices.
IPSC SG (2004) 5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor's cartridges or reloading devices may extend away from a competitor's body, a Range Officer may check compliance by measuring the gap between the competitor’s body and the rims of the cartridges, if held separately in clips or loops, or the center of the longest external dimension of any reloading devices.
The removes the anomaly with regards to forearm carriers (etc.).
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Cash And Trophy Payouts
in USPSA/IPSC Shooting
Posted
I'm not sure my view will be the popular one but I'll offer it just the same, it might strike a chord with some.
I can go to the gun store to buy a few cartridges. I can go to the same store and buy a range bag. I can dig into my pockets for the cash to buy a new set of ear defenders.
I can't go to the store and buy a trophy engraved with the match details and placing. Actually I guess you could cheat and commission it to be done but then it's worthless if you didn't win it.
I shoot for fun. I shoot because I enjoy it, I enjoy the people I meet and I've travelled to some places that would never have otherwise have been a consideration.
I've won my fair share of trophies over the years, many are small and relatively cheap items but the memories and reminders are priceless.
How long does the $25 prize stay with you? I've still got my first trophy, a small (very) shield for best novice at a match (1987) and once in a while I notice it and I can remember the range, the organiser, some of the ROs, the guy I went with, the stages. I remember being shocked that I had won it and pleased that I had. Sad isn't it?
I distinctly remember a match that put up a unique trophy for first place and being disappointed that I wasn't good enough on the day. The guy that won it deserved it and took home something unique and not to be repeated. With a cash prize ......... ah well! There's always next year!
I've seen many others in the sport who have taken home a trophy with a proud smile on their face.
I'm not saying we shouldn't recognise the top winners to a greater degree but we shouldn't underestimate the importance of the trophy to some of the others and I'm not for a minute suggesting a prize for everone that turns up.
As I said before the cash prize is soon spent and forgotten.
Shoot. Win. End up with your entry fee discounted (net result). No thanks. I'd rather that money go to the newbie to encourage them and to make the sport stronger. I quite like the idea of them being encouraged enough to stay with it so they end up ROing instead of me.
Just my 2 cents worth. It doesn't make me a bad person!