matt2ace

I get the same bulge from 2 different versions of the AET barrel (Tribrid II and Standard 5-inch) built by 2 different smiths (KEAL and Gans) with very different configurations over a year apart (Gans gun is new). There is no way that both guns have a timing/lockup problem that manifests exactly the same way. This has got to be a problem with my loads. Once I get a chance to run SRP and Wolf SPM primers I will let everyone know how the cases look. Explaining how a full circumference bulge occurs with over-pressure ammo will probably keep this thread alive for sometime.

This is definitely not an out of battery problem. The same pressure issues occur with both KEAL and Gans guns, built totally different from each other. I reinspected the cases under from yesterday (better light and magnification) and found that there were bulged cases from the KEAL gun at 7.6gr and 7.8gr, it was just not obvious when I looked them over at the range. I had a discussion with a friend who is a commercial reloader (thanks Tim!). He pointed out that WSPM primers are known to produce ~5000psi higher pressures than any other standard or magnum primer. The are acutally listed as 'special purpose only'. I had these primers because it was all I could get at one point and they worked great for my 40 loads. Tim strongly suspects that it is the WSPM primers that are driving the over-pressure condition. You can see from the chrono data (BTW- using a Chronoy F1, suspect it is reading a bit low) that 7.4-7.6 makes major in the Gan's gun. I have 15K of wolf magnum primers and 1000 small rifle primers. Tim was clear that wolf magnum won't produce the higher pressure like WSPM. Loading them up tonight with 7.4 and 7.6gr at 1.18 OAL. I am pretty confident that is going to fix the problem. The KEAL gun is probably going up for sale. I love the gun, built great. It shoots great too, works every time. However it won't make major with the same load as the Gans gun. I don't want to run hotter loads in the Gans gun just to make major in what will end up being my backup gun. I could use it for steel, but I really need a backup for the Gans gun if I plan to shoot Nationals and several other big matches this year. I need to finance another Gans built gun so the KEAL is probably going up for sale. I will post more once I get the next pass of loads through the gun.

Back from the range.....with less than good news. My Commander lenght Keal gun was 5-10pt lower PF than the full length Gan's gun. The Keal is an AET TRIBRID II with additional small 'jet ports', the Gans is an AET 5-inch with standard 3-port comp. The Gans gun showed signs of overpressure on all Silhouette loads and OALs. Some were minor signs, but over-pressure none the less. The KEAL gun showed no sign of over-pressure even with my normal load 7.8gr, 1.165OAL (166PF). This confirms to me that the over-pressure situation I observed with the KEAL gun was due to shorter than expected OAL (1.50-.155). GECO headstamp cases are pretty weak. There were signs of over-pressure on these cases even when every other case in the group looked perfect. Even at 158PF, I found one of these cases bulged. This was the headstamp that burst on Sunday. Summary of the chrono data (10 round for each lot in 2 strings averaged) Powder = Silhouette, Primer = WSPM, 124gr MGD CMJ, mixed cases, U-die sized 7.2gr / 1.172 OAL GANS Avg 1332, ES 35, SD 43, PF 165 KEAL Avg 1274, ES 26, SD 12.5, PF 157 7.4gr / 1.172 OAL GANS Avg 1331, ES 19, SD 7 PF 165 KEAL Avg 1292, ES 38, SD 16.5 PF 160 7.4gr / 1.18 OAL GANS Avg 1340, ES 14, SD 6 PF 166 KEAL Avg 1257, ES 40, SD 17 PF 155 7.6gr / 1.172 OAL GANS Avg 1384, ES 33, SD 15 PF 171 KEAL Avg 1284, ES 28, SD 11 PF 159 7.6gr / 1.18 OAL GANS Avg 1368, ES 24, SD 8 PF 170 KEAL Avg 1285, ES 37, SD 14 PF 159 7.8gr / 1.165 OAL GANS Avg 1403, ES 21, SD7.5 PF 174 KEAL Avg 1336, ES 29, SD 12 PF 166 My next step is to try 1.19 OAL with Silhouette and replace the U-die with a standard sizer. The increase case volume without the U-die and the longer OAL may alleviate the pressure problems with the GANs gun. AET barrels have pretty large chambers which I suspect contribute to this problem, a standard sizer might help. Finally, I plan to try some HS6 loads since I just happen to have 1lb of this powder.

I believe that I am using an adequate crimp. I did load/unload a round and there are no difference in OAL. The short OAL was due to my 550 loader. Nothing wrong with the machine, I had just not checked it to assure I had the right OAL before starting to load. I did check about 50 rounds out of about 1500 recently reloaded (at 7.8gr) and they varied from 1.151 to 1.165. I had been boxing my ammo as a I loaded over the winter so I believe that I was shooting a batch with shorter OAL recently. I plan to measure and cull out any rounds <1.163 from my current stock and pull those bullets. Trolling through the various postings on 9mm major, it became obvious to me that I am running a pretty low OAL for 9mm major. 1.165 seems to be the low end for most people with 1.17-1.18 being the average range for OAL. I loaded up a batch of loads at 1.17 and 1.18 OAL (at 7.4-7.6gr) and culled a box of 7.8gr loads with OAL >1.163 from my current ammo. Going to the range tomorrow to chrono it all through both guns. I will post the results in detail tomorrow evening. I discussed the pressure problems with Gary Natale who built my new gun. He mentioned that the Shuemann AET barrels have a larger chamber than other mfr. Both my guns have AET barrels which got me thinking about trying a standard sizing die rather than a U-die. This would allow more case volume and less clearance with the larger AET chamber.

I just discovered that the problem is the load, not the gun. My new Gan's built gun is showing the same bulging problem as Errol's gun. I had 2 loads with me. My original 7.8gr Silhouette and 7.6gr Silhouette and both are showing bulging cases. 7.6gr is making 175PF and 7.8gr is making 180PF. I also measured a bunch of cases and found that they were shorter than the OAL I had thought my press was set up for. I was getting as low as 1.15 OAL when I expected slightly over 1.16 OAL. I also realized that I am using a new can of Silhouette. All of these conditions combined could be the reason for the overpressure. I ran close to 4000 round last year with this same load but at 1.163 OAL without any signs of bulged cases. So, I plan to reset my press to 1.165 OAL and setup new loads starting at 6.2gr and chrono it all to see if I can find a 170PF load that is not showing signs of over-pressure. I am also going to try some HS6 to see how that will work, I just need to find a good starting point. It's a shame that I just purchased 12lb of Silhouette. I would love to use that powder, it is very clean.....but I won't take risks with over-pressure for a $150 worth of powder. I will post more info when I get through with my test loads.

Gary Natale at Gan's Enterprises does some awesome work. I just picked up a 9mm major from him. 12 days to build it and (atleast) 10-20% lower cost than any other advertised price I have seen.

I do not have a gauge capable of measure chamber diameter at multiple depths in the barrel. I don't think that it is a chamber issue. The bulged cases will not fully fit into the chamber and being full circumference I believe they are occuring due to an out of battery situation.

Firing pin spring had just been replaced this year and inspected a week ago. I don't think it is slam fires, I am sure that I pulled the trigger when the case burst. I am suspecting a lock-up, it makes the most sense as i think about this more. I posted a link to this thread on the gunsmith forum looking for advice on what to inspect for a lockup problem.

Exactly Doug I know these might not be the best cases, but the bulging occured with WIN, FC, and other quality cases. The load is not hot, it's typical for 9mm major using Silhouette. The primer on this and other buldged cases looks normal.

Gentlemen, I posted this in the reloading forum originally, but I think now that the problem has become SERIOUS enough to cause a case to blow out, its time to get some input from the smiths on this forum. I do plan to send it out to the builder if I can get a hold of him. I thought some advice from the experts on the forum might help me discover and/or learn more about how this problem can arise and what to look for on the gun. I would be happy to post pix of various parts if anyone is interested in guiding me through a diagnosis. Rest assured, I am not doing the work myself. I am nowhere near expert enough to consider fixing this myself. If I cannot get to the builder, it will go to an expert for any work. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=81528

OK, so I am DOPE.....a BIG friggin DOPE. I should have taken your warnings to heart. I should a listened to voice in my head telling me to diagnose the problem and/or see a gunsmith before shooting a match with it. Well, I did not......and fortunately, I was not hurt. You all know where this is going......yes, I shot a match today with the gun and yes, a case blew out on the 5th stage . Being a lefty, it blew right in my face . As I said, no damage done to me or the gun. I had experienced a couple of cases where the gun was not fully in battery after a shot and had to clear the round. I was not able to find those rounds until after the match. YUP.....bulged just like the posted case (all different headstamps). Then I get the blown case as you see in the pix. Scary, more than you can imagine. I pulled the gun apart, nothing obvious. I hope to send it back to builder, Errol Lawson, if I can get in touch with him to discuss this further. I purchased the gun new from Dean Makkos. I was Errol (aka: Keal) was the builder. The gun has about 3-4k rounds through it at this point. I will keep you all posted....and THANKS for your advice......if only I had taken it yesterday

They are definitely 9mm cases....... I will do some measuring of the case in the pic. I will also pick through some recent spent cases to see if I can find more and measure them up as well.

Let me try to answer all of the postings above....... I am sure these came out of my gun. I picked that specific case up off the floor of our the shoot house at my range, there were no other 9mm cases on the floor at the time. This is a very new occurance for me. I shot several thousand rounds last year without ever observing anything of this type. Yes, the gun in the avatar is the only 9mm I had at the time. I use a u-die and chamber check my rounds, they all go through the checker. I have considered going back to a standard sizer die. The load I am using is very common for Silhouette through 9mm open guns. It makes 170pf and shows no signs of primer issues at all. There is no common head-stamp on the bulged rounds. I know of many people who reload 9mm cases many times so it really hard for me to believe that this is case wear-out. Could this be an out-of-battery problem? I have tried everything I can, dry-firing, to get the gun to fire out-of-battery and I cannot. I am basically holding the slide slightly out of battery it won't break a shot. Is there any established method I can use to test for this problem

I have reloading 9mm major (9x19) for a couple of year now. I buy once fired brass and typically do not pick it up at matches. I have been reusing my own reloaded brass picked up after practice sessions. This brass has been reloaded 2-3 (maybe 4) times. I don't mixed 'pick up' brass with anything I purchase as once fired. I use 7.5gr Silhouette, WSPM, 1.16OAL , using a u-die. The load makes a 170PF with low SD even with mixed cases. I recently started finding cases with a uniform bulge around the entire lower end of the case (see pic). These cases obviously are not usable anymore. I have never experienced an FTE, nor do I notice any difference in recoil when this bulging occurs. No signs of primer flow or any distortion in the primer. Also, there has never been a burst case or signs of cracking. I typically find a few of these cases when I pick up my brass after practice. The only answer I can come up with is that these cases are wearing out and the bulge is a result of fatigue near the web due to multiple resizing with a U-die. I am not an expert so I thought it might be nice to get some feeback here.

My shorty has a 3 chamber Tribrid with 6 exrta holes. My new Gan's gun has 3 chambers with one set of side-ports. I did not consider the side-ports an additional chamber since there does not appear to be any expansion volume in that area of the comp. Both are 9x19...

I did a lot of research for a 9mm (9x19) major build just completed. I found that many 9mm major guns are running 3 chamber comps with side-ports. There is definitely some variation in 9x19 but 3 seems to be most popular. 38S variants seem to have much more variation in comp chambers, barrel holes, and ports. I think this has more to with the addition gas that can be generated with the larger case sizes allowing for most combination of chambers, ports, and holes. There is a much longer design history for 38S which also leads to more variation.

+1 Howard . I see nothing wrong with buying a used gun. Just like buying a used car, don't trust the saleman, go to a trusted mechanic (aka: gunsmith) and have it checked out before you accept it. Anyone selling a gun should allow you atleast 5-7 days to inspect and decide if you want to finalize the purchase. Always ask if you can test fire the gun as well. You should see how the gun feels when you shoot it. If it is a local selling the gun, ask if you try it out after a match using their ammo. If you buy over the internet, ask about the load they use and try to use the same when test firing. ALWAYS ASK FIRST. Also, don't EVER pay attention to who owned the gun before! Just because some big name might have owned the gun does not mean that it has magical powers that will make you a better shooter . A well built and maintained gun is what you want.....all else is just talk.

Got my slot for the Open match through the my club.......squading up with nhglyn and AWLAZS for my (our) first nationals. I did 'get the call' last year, but had to say no due to scheduling conflict. First time in Vegas for me too!

+1....assuring that the RO is aware that gun has a magazine disconnect is key to meeting the requirements of "ICHDH". Most shooters I have RO'd shooting guns with mag disconnects know how to execute "ICHDH" properly as you point out. When I RO that occasional new shooter who is unaware of the procedure, I take a few extra seconds to explain how what they need to do......usually I end up unloading one of their mags for them, handing it back and then have them execute "ICHDH". It amounts to a bit of education on both sides to assure a safe procedure.

It took me a long time to learn that the only person I should compete against is myself. Keeping a log of dry-fire par times and live-fire times/splits helps me understand how well (or not) I am progressing with my skills. At matches, I stopped comparing (or even caring) about times run by others........they mean nothing towards my performance and only distract my mental focus (dot on target, call shot, shoot As, smooth movement).

Just make sure you are making ~170PF and the standard deviation is not too high. I have seen people who push too close the 165PF and end up surprised with a 163PF at the chrono due to standard deviation driving the avg velocity too low. I also recommend using one bullet type and weight for any given match. Mix your ammo for practice or local matches, keep everything the same for the bigger matches. I can understand why minor shooters might want this, but IMHO it leads to inconsistency stage to stage.

From past experience shooting a 40 Glock in open with popowell holes...they lead up pretty quickly. If you are shooting 9mm major with lead, the added velocity will only make this happen much quicker. Try putting about 200-250 round through it in practice and see how much build up you get. If you can live with soaking the barrel after every match, then go for it. You are also going to find a lot of lead build up in the barrel when you push 9mm lead bullets to 1300+ FPS (assuming you are shooting 124gr).

I just started reading Lanny's book after finishing both of Steve Anderson's books (great intro to Lanny's book and the dry fire drills are really working for me). Just a few pages into Lanny's book and I am already learning more about the mental game that I ever imagined.

For some (sick) reason Randy.........I miss winter shoots at GMPS since I moved to NY. We don't shoot at all in the winter down hear and there is barely any snow on the ground. I remember winter shoots when it never got above zero for the entire match. Pasters just froze to the target, they would drop off the targets with every hit, scoring was always fun. No need for fault lines, we just cut paths through 3ft of snow.

I have been using Winchester SPM primers for a couple of years in my 9 major gun. Never saw any problems with primer flow or other pressure issues using Silhouette powder for the load. I just purchased 15K of Wolf SPM primers mainly due to (lack of) supply issues with every other brand.