Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Do classifiers really represent a full skill set test of a GM?


CHA-LEE

Recommended Posts

I want to know how many championships come with your GM card?

cause thats all that matters.

I like this comment... LOTS of "Scratch" Handicap golfers who can't play when the chips are down... I guess it's the same here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 126
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I refuse to waste any energy getting pissed about things I can't control. Grandbaggers, Sandbaggers, Bag ladies... really, what's the point in getting upset about it? Spend that energy on something more productive than bitching about what other people do.

JT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ive been told that I should try hard to make master (ie practice classifiers that are coming up), because it would be good for business.

Where are these clubs where you know in advance what classifier you are shooting and some guys shoot them 6 or

8 times until they get the score they want ?? :surprise:

Around here the only guys that know what classifier we are shooting are the ones setting it up "that" morning and

"no one" shoots them more then once. We get to the match, look at the stage and go,"oh shit it's this one", and then we

shoot it once and maybe get lucky. I dont feel so inadequate now. <_<

I practice classifiers the first practice after the match to see what went wrong. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I cant tell you how many times Ive been told that I should try hard to make master (ie practice classifiers that are coming up), because it would be good for business.
I can not even begin to relate to that mentality. Edited by Ron Ankeny
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is that little letter on that card that USPSA sends everyone really a big enough deal to warrant people getting all irritated?

I'm glad Ben posted. Ben is currently a 100% classifier guy. There are four shooters in the USPSA production division that have 100% on their classifier scores. Ben is one of them.

At the 2008 production nationals Ben was 3rd. In 2007 he was 5th.

His point is valid. It's the primary reason I edited a post in this thread a little earlier. I recognize we all don't see the world the same and I certainly posted a "rant" that I quickly realized wasn't worth it.

He's also an example that there are a lot of components to the game. And he rocks at all of them!

Thanks Ben!

Jack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the solid GM’s I have seen shoot, the basic processes of drawing, shooting, reloading and so on performed in the average Classifier stage is a very small snapshot of what makes these shooters so good.

Let's just look at this sentence. First off, I truly believe the shooting foundation that must be built in order to shoot classifiers at 95-100% is much more than a "small snapshot" of what makes a shooter good. I think the skills required to do well on a classifier are required to be competitive in this game. A person will not go far without those "stand and shoot" skills. Whether or not a shooter acquires the rest of the skills necessary to be competitive depends on another set of variables. For those of you who are actually trying to learn from this thread, if you develop a superior set of "classifier skills", add the element of movement (whether it be the gun that is moving, the target that is moving, or the shooter that is moving) you will be on your way.

I suppose this thread has run its course, but it would be really interesting to list the skills necessary to shoot classifiers like a house on fire. I think you would find it is much more than most folks think. Look at it this way, most of the field courses I see are nothing more than a bunch of arrays scattered here and there. Each of those arrays can be thought of as a little "classifier" that is shot on the way through. Unfortunately, people seem to like to hose and all too often those arrays are nothing but repetitive blasting at brown at under ten yards...way under ten yards. It could be that shooters at some clubs find the classifier more difficult that other stages because their stages are just too easy to shoot and place the emphasis elsewhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for your other point, isn't the game about shooting? Not a track meet or an endurance run, but shooting. The 'basics" is what we do every time we engage a target or an array.

Although I'm a beginner (6-7 months experience), I disagree. MUCH of this sport, is movement. Movement ability, quickness, agility, is required to win many stages, and therefore events. I think the majority of classifiers being stationary is wrong. Transition speed is JUST as critical (if not more so) than draw and reload speed. The current system rewards the quick draw guys, but not the "athletes" in the sport... But then... (flame suit donned) I'M GUESSING it's the older, slower guys who dominate/run the sport... I may be wrong...

LOL

Jeff

From the solid GM’s I have seen shoot, the basic processes of drawing, shooting, reloading and so on performed in the average Classifier stage is a very small snapshot of what makes these shooters so good. Sure their ultra fast and accurate execution of these basics is usually far above most of us.

If you perform the basic skills well you can have less than optimum movement skills and still do ok, the reverse is rarely true.

Ever have a youngster in your club do really well just because he/she is in better shape than the rest of the people ? A track meet you will rarely see in any high level match.

I'm soo pissed that i just wasted 5 minutes on this ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is that little letter on that card that USPSA sends everyone really a big enough deal to warrant people getting all irritated?

I agree with Ben. USPSA created "Grandbaggers" and "Sandbaggers" the instant they created the classification system, there is no set of standards that adequately measure match performance skill. Some people are very good at stand and shoot and can't shoot in our out of a position and people call them Grandbaggers because they can score well on classifiers, but score poorer on field courses, and most matches are more field courses than standards. The inverse is also true. I got good at standing at shooting when I only had 4 target stands and shot every day. That your classification doesn't lower as you shoot less cause people to be over classified also. Sandbaggers are the people in life who worry more about recognition than performance, and there is nothing you can do to fix that if you have a classification system, they are too clever.

Fact is that the classification system is simply a prize/recognition distribution tool. If you don't worry about your classification, you can spend that time on your shooting.

So to answers CHA's question, yes and no. Yes, because they are the one that determines the minimum skills to get a piece of paper label GM on it. Does it measure the skill level of guys like Ben who could 100% them weak hand, blindfolded, and on one leg, nope.

Edited by Loves2Shoot
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ron Ankeny> Good points!!! What is your list of skills needed for executing Stand and Shoot Classifier stages?

Draw fast then shoot and reload fast and accurate. I think it is that simple.

I would go a little more and say draw to first shot. Getting it out and up is foreplay... you have to actually use it too. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ron Ankeny> Good points!!! What is your list of skills needed for executing Stand and Shoot Classifier stages?

Draw fast then shoot and reload fast and accurate. I think it is that simple.

Scott - You forgot the HARD part of that. Repeat it. :D

Rich

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing I've not seen mentioned much is Consistency. It's as big an attribute as any, and bigger than most.

Lots of people could get a 95% score on a classifier by running at 110% and getting lucky. Doing it six times in a row is much harder. Doing it 18 times in a row at a major match is another order of magnitude harder.

Long ago a world champion mentioned to me at a major "most of the B-class shooters at this match could win it... but won't " (meaning that they had the basic skills, but hadn't yet learned to connect them all together consistently and appropriately)

Some people shoot matches, some people shoot stages.

Back on the original topic; Classifiers themselves don't represent the full skill set, but unless you exclusively practice the particular classifier skills, by the time you get them to 95%, the rest of your skillset will be too...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not a "GM", but an easy answer to the original question and of course my humble opinion, YES. Maybe not as singles, but the classifiers as a whole probably do represent the full skill set of a GM. I like what Ron Ankeny has to say about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Getting classified GM would be relatively easy for me to do, but actually having the skill set to shoot GM at a national... that's something else. The only reason I don't go for it now is I don't want to be the GM getting his arse kicked by A shooters. I feel it would be an insult to the guys that actually trained in all the areas it takes to be competitive at that level.

Edited by JThompson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Draw fast then shoot and reload fast and accurate. I think it is that simple.
Then why doesn't everyone have a GM card in their wallet? :roflol:

I think someone said simple..not easy :roflol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PAPER KILLER Brings up good points on the subject. One thing I am really trying to focus on and evaluate is one handed shooting for the average match stage that is not a Classifier. When do you really see a top shooter leverage one handed shooting for a stage and it end up being faster/better than doing it two handed? From what I have seen, it’s been VERY rare. I have been exploring this in my own shooting to see if I can incorporate strong handed shooting into my “Bag of tricks” for a given stage in order to save time. I have been somewhat successful with it at times and other times it was just a waste of time or points. This is even for Strong Hand shooting much less Weak Hand. I am yet to see anyone transition to weak hand on a stage where it ended up being faster or better than a two handed grip. So really, other than being mandated to shoot strong or weak hand in a COF what is the point in it being a “Core” skill set??

Strong Hand and Weak Hand shooting isn't just limited to classifiers.

We could see more of them if the Match Directors and Stage Designers would choose to include them in matches. :huh:

Return of the squirrel?

As for foot speed being a dominant factor, that Robbie guy does pretty well with 2 knee braces on.

Rich

+1 look at Taran big guy but does preety good at all big matches!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

+1 look at Taran big guy but does preety good at all big matches!

Absolutely, size ,or athletic ability, has nothing to do with it. Taran is a really great example of efficiency of movement.

The guys feet never stop and the transition speeds are the same as the splits. His slide appears open more

of the time then closed throughout the stage.

Infact the bigger guys often seem to do well as they have better recoil control !! :lol:

When my wife gives me crap about snacking I tell her I'm on the shooter's diet, I need to build up

some mass for better recoil control and faster split times. ;)

Edited by P.Pres
Link to comment
Share on other sites

+1 look at Taran big guy but does preety good at all big matches!

Size ,or athletic ability, has nothing to do with it. Taran is a really great example of efficiency of movement.

The guys feet never stop and the transition speeds are the same as the splits. His slide appears open more

of the time then closed throughout the stage.

Yeah, I've decided this is not an excuse I will be using anymore. Working hard on movement the last few months has started to pay off dividends. Last week's classifier 99-10 times two has proven that. With a Limited gun and bad eyesight I was able to run it in 6.32. It used to always be a mid-7's stage for me. GM's are extremely efficient with their movement. I have also never seen a GM not be able to smoke classifiers with ease.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Getting classified GM would be relatively easy for me to do

So are you sandbagging then? :surprise: Let the chips falls where the fall, it is only an insult to you to hold back on classifiers for fear of being embarrassed by being beaten by anyone. :ph34r: Do you want fear to drive you or passion to succeed? There is no success without lots of failure, and if you are worried about being beaten, you can not focus on doing what it takes to win :cheers::P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...