A more in-depth set of question on the thumbs-forward grip

[RobMoore]

Doesn't Ron Avery recommend this (side-to-side pressure from chest) for shooters who are having trouble keeping their hands together?

Probably, since that is who I learned from. Its been a while since I went over my notes from his class.....must put that on the agenda before the next practice session.

[Flexmoney]

Hmm?? Because it is behind the gun when it gets pushed backwards, occupies more surface area on the grip?

I would think that the weak hand isn't the one on the gun because it is still occupying the space where the gun used to be, because it was being held in place, not held onto the gun.

A little no and a little yes, IMO.

Ready?

It's because our minds tell it to do the work of holding the gun.

I can run my handguns without any gripping being done by the strong hand at all. I can take off ALL pressure on the backstrap (and I would demo running it without the strong hand on there at all if I could get my thumb out of the way of the slide.)

I do get the meaty part of my support hand behind the bun a bit and onto the backstrap some. I like grip tape. I cam the support hand and really like getting the meaty "drumstick" of my thumb/hand onto the gun.

If the front strap is 12 o'clock and the back strap is 6 o'clock...my support hand isn't applying pressure at 3 and 9 o'clock. The support fingers apply pressure at about 1:30 - 2 o'clock. The back of the palm covers LOTS of surface area, hand goes back to 5:30 6:30 or so.

The gun is going to recoil. Your hands shouldn't be trying to stop it. You likely want them firm, to return the gun...but, they need to be flexible too, to go with the gun in recoil. If a hand is coming off the gun...in lots of cases it is because the shooter want to keep that hand stationary. The gun will move, if the hand doesn't move with it...it will come off.

[RobMoore]

Your last paragraph says what I was thinking. I also grip with the support hand similar to how you explained, but more like 1 and 7 o'clock. My strong hand takes up the whole backstrap.

[ER_STL]

I do get the meaty part of my support hand behind the bun a bit and onto the backstrap some. I like grip tape. I cam the support hand and really like getting the meaty "drumstick" of my thumb/hand onto the gun.

If the front strap is 12 o'clock and the back strap is 6 o'clock...my support hand isn't applying pressure at 3 and 9 o'clock. The support fingers apply pressure at about 1:30 - 2 o'clock. the back of the palm covers LOTS of surface area, band goes back to 5:30 or so.

I was surfing this thread in which you posted pictures of your grip. How do you manage to get your support hand anywhere near the backstrap on a Glock? When I grip my G19 my support hand approaches the checkering of the backstrap but it's not covering any of it. In order for me to get it back there I have to move my strong hand thumb up out of the way (and somewhat behind the path of the slide). Like Rob said, my strong hand takes up pretty much all of the backstrap when I grip one-handed.

Again, this must be the result of the differences in hand sizes and geometries. When I take a two-handed grip on a Glock my strong hand thumb ends up slightly in the path of the slide rail closest to it. As a result, I get slide-bite with each pull of the trigger. Also, my support hand almost touches the slide and is covering the slide stop (left-handed). Both hands seem a little higher than what you have in your photo.

[Flexmoney]

Opps. I see a typo or two there. Sorry for the confusion. [edited original]

My grip...now...with the left hand, probably goes back the 7:00 - 6:30. The left hand in those pics is more of an 8:00 - 8:30

I may have to experiment with that some, as I got pretty good tracking back then.

[ER_STL]

But the question still remains....

How are you getting your support hand onto the backstrap of a Glock? Are you moving your strong hand further around the gun (counter-clockwise for a righty) to make room for the support hand? When I grip a Glock one handed I have mabye 2 rows of checkering left. My strong hand takes up the rest. I put my thumb up where a safety would normally be on a 1911. If I "flag" it up on the slide like some recommend it moves the thumb knuckle up onto the tang and behind the rail of the slide.

My support hand applies somewhat of a 10 to 4 pressure but it doesn't contact the backstrap on the Glock. On a more rounded gun like my M&P I get a *bit* of it behind the gun but not much.

Edited July 7, 2009 by ER_STL

[Flexmoney]

I don't like the video that TJ has on the grip that is all over Youtube. I don't know, but...to me...is seems like it is based in an old-school bulls-eye grip. Which would make sense if we were extending our strong arm straight and we were bladed in such a manner to look down that arm (strong handed...left and right shoulder more in line with the one arm and the chin near the strong shoulder).

From what I understand of how DR Middlebrook teaches his FistFire (which I am no authority to really speak on)...he has the shooter place the flats (between the knuckles) of the strong hand such that they are flat across the face of the front strap.

Another method that occurs to me is to take the gun and just hold it with the off hand's middle finger under the dust cover in front of the trigger guard and the off thumb on back of the slide (this leaves the grip completely open), then float the gun out under the strong eye at about the "gun extended to target" distance. Then place the strong hand on the grip. And, maybe play around with varying that strong hand a bit and see where that puts you wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc.

I'm a bit different, in that I think of the strong hand in terms of how it sits on the gun in the "yaw axis" (think rudder position). And, the basis for that...IMO... comes from the hand being in a position that allows the trigger finger to actuate the trigger straight back into the gun, without any side-to-side pressure.

Now, that may mean that the shooter has to deal with "Glock knuckle" were the middle finger hits the trigger guard. Or, where the knuckle of the thumb wraps around the beaver tail. But, if you can't press the trigger straight back into the gun, then I think that is a true limitation. It also may mean that certain guns really don't fit certain people. Some of us have hands that allow for some adaptation (we can make ourselves fit the gun through training).

All of that should be explored. And, we should note the various index points and how that situates the rest of our grip and stance.

And, then we can explore basing the grip by building it from the weak hand perspective instead of the strong.

[sherpa]

Flex, do you have pictures 1st showing only your strong hand gripping the gun (showing where the middle finger rests on the frontstrap under the trigger guard), and 2nd, with your support hand gripping and reaching the backstrap? I'm can't also seem to manage gripping like Mike Seeklander suggests, w/c has about 1/3 of the support palm behind the backstrap, as described in his site: Mike Seeklander - shooting grip

Edited July 8, 2009 by sherpa

[Flexmoney]

I don't have any more pictures, and our camera is dead.

Mike's pics and description look pretty good to me. His pics are much like the grip I am currently using...which is a bit different than the grip that ER STL linked to in post #54

[ER_STL]

Great - thanks for the photos. I was actually coming to respond to this thread with a post from BE when I saw that the two of you had responded.

Brian wrote this a while back, and it sounds like he was/is doing the same thing that you are doing as well:

For me, my weak hand is far enough to the rear (of the left side of the grip) and my strong hand is far enough around the rear, so that the upper part of the base of my strong hand thumb is pressed firmly against the lower part of my week hand thumb. These contact areas meet just at the left edge of the grip safety/mainspring housing. (You may have to read that again.)

So then my next question is, how do you shoot one-handed effectively when you remove your support hand? In order for me to do what I see above, my strong hand has to be moved further around the gun to make room for the support hand. This takes the gun out of the center of the web-hand and puts it into a postion to batter the thumb. It doesn't seem like the ideal position in which to shoot if I go strong-hand only.

Up until this point I've been approaching my grip backwards from what you said in your previous post. Rather than building the grip from the support hand, I start with the assumption that I *have* to have a good strong-hand grip first and then apply the support hand. I do this so that I'm always in a position to run the gun effectively whether I add the support hand or not. I think when TJ talks about holding the pistol in-line with the forearm, I think he's setting up the student to start with a good strong-hand grip first and then add the support hand second. The gun of course won't stay inline with the forearm of the strong side in an ISO stance but it seems like the right place to start with just one hand.

[rvb]

I don't like the video that TJ has on the grip that is all over Youtube. I don't know, but...to me...is seems like it is based in an old-school bulls-eye grip. Which would make sense if we were extending our strong arm straight and we were bladed in such a manner to look down that arm (strong handed...left and right shoulder more in line with the one arm and the chin near the strong shoulder).

I didn't either at first. In PD I'm a Beretta shooter, and I always felt my best accuracy and sight tracking was more as you describe. But then I started shooting 19/2011s and after a lot of experimenting I found that a grip similar to TJs video netted me the best trigger control. This then translated over to my 92 as well and I became capable of much better accuracy (incl DA). Looking at things from the top, the trigger finger more naturally seems to work the trigger straight back. I just have to have more bend in the SH wrist.

Of course I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that we have to experiment to figure out the method that results in the best trigger manipulation and sight tracking. And there are lots of variables including the physical attributes of the shooter, the shape of the gun, reach to the trigger, etc. In my case, I should have just listened to TJ a long time ago.

-rvb

Edited July 8, 2009 by rvb

[Graham Smith]

I'm not sure how I missed this thread before, but it is extremely informative. A year or two before I started shooting USPSA and before I found this forum, the only real source of info I had was books which mainly covered defensive pistol.

I seem to recall reading one book that was geared to competition - a very thin book with a title something about X-Ring or X-Count shooting. One of the points this author made was the importance of finding a grip that would allow you to control the gun without resulting in any movement of the barrel as you pulled the trigger. IOW, the index finger of your strong hand had to be able to move independently of the rest of the hand. One suggestion he had was to shift the dominant part of your grip from your strong hand to your support hand. A while later, I ran across the Matt Burkett videos (which were the main thing that got me interested in USPSA) and I seem to recall him going over the same ground.

Well, this past weekend I was exercising a new load and I dug out my copy of some Burkett timing drills. The first one has to do with this very thing and I remembered what I have been forgetting - I shoot better if I relax my strong hand a bit. I suffer from poor grip. When I pull the trigger, my entire right hand tends to contract which does all kinds of things to the barrel - none of them good.

It would seem that I could benefit from some very specific dry fire training and possibly some hand exercises. Any suggestions?

[Flexmoney]

Great - thanks for the photos. I was actually coming to respond to this thread with a post from BE when I saw that the two of you had responded.

Brian wrote this a while back, and it sounds like he was/is doing the same thing that you are doing as well:

For me, my weak hand is far enough to the rear (of the left side of the grip) and my strong hand is far enough around the rear, so that the upper part of the base of my strong hand thumb is pressed firmly against the lower part of my week hand thumb. These contact areas meet just at the left edge of the grip safety/mainspring housing. (You may have to read that again.)

So then my next question is, how do you shoot one-handed effectively when you remove your support hand? In order for me to do what I see above, my strong hand has to be moved further around the gun to make room for the support hand. This takes the gun out of the center of the web-hand and puts it into a postion to batter the thumb. It doesn't seem like the ideal position in which to shoot if I go strong-hand only.

We shoot with 2 hands. 99.9% of the time.

If you or I have to grip the gun differently when going strong hand or weak hand...so be it, IMO. (but, that is never a matter of removing the other hand)

Ideally, it would be nice to get the same placement, but not if you end up with less than what you want for the vast majority of your shooting.

Up until this point I've been approaching my grip backwards from what you said in your previous post. Rather than building the grip from the support hand, I start with the assumption that I *have* to have a good strong-hand grip first and then apply the support hand. I do this so that I'm always in a position to run the gun effectively whether I add the support hand or not. I think when TJ talks about holding the pistol in-line with the forearm, I think he's setting up the student to start with a good strong-hand grip first and then add the support hand second. The gun of course won't stay inline with the forearm of the strong side in an ISO stance but it seems like the right place to start with just one hand.

Shake up your assumption, then explore.

I'm not saying any of the above is right or wrong. It needs explored...with an open mind.

For example... When I was trying to get better/figure out stage break down, I would come up with my most likely way that I was going to shoot a field course...then, I would force myself to come up with a different plan or three to shoot that same field course. I would make myself explore alternative ways that were outside the comfort zone.

[Flexmoney]

... I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that we have to experiment to figure out the method that results in the best trigger manipulation and sight tracking.

That is well said.

We need to be able to drop what we think we know...even if some of the best shooters tell us it's the golden rule...and explore to see what gives us the performance.

[ER_STL]

We need to be able to drop what we think we know...even if some of the best shooters tell us it's the golden rule...and explore to see what gives us the performance.

This is the same conclusion to which I'm coming...I'm going to have to shoot a lot and figure it out myself to see what works and what doesn't work. Honestly, I'm convinced that after the few years of study and research that I've done that with all of the minor tweeks and variations in the thumbs-forward grip, the base goal must be to produce a system that allows the sights to track consistently. That's it...everything else is icing on the cake. And this is accomplished by acquiring a grip on the gun that doesn't disturb its natural desire to track straight up and down - or at least to bring it back to the same spot if for some reason it tracks to one side or the other.

Everything else seems to be secondary. Some people get behind the gun; others don't. Some crush down with their support hands; others don't. Some use a variation of an isometric tension (push-pull or side-to-side); some don't. Heck - some even ride up on the trigger guard while others don't. My attempt to understand it all has brought me back to the basic idea that that all must first stay out of the gun's ability to track up and down and then add any additional beneficial qualities (i.e. reduced muzzle flip, etc).

My head hurts...

I never wanted to turn this thread into a tacticool vs competition but my study is centered on developing a solid foundation from which to build a defensive gun skillset. Since most defensive shootings are done one-handed I consider the ability to shoot one-handed as important if not more important than two-handed. As such, I had always started with a good one-handed grip first and then tried to figure out how the support hand can come onto that seemlessly.

Fug it...I'm going to start CCWing a shotgun and just call it a day.

[Flexmoney]

.I'm going to start CCWing a shotgun and just call it a day.

http://www.summitgunbroker.com/New_Standard.html

[benos]

We need to be able to drop what we think we know...even if some of the best shooters tell us it's the golden rule...and explore to see what gives us the performance.

This is the same conclusion to which I'm coming...I'm going to have to shoot a lot and figure it out myself to see what works and what doesn't work. Honestly, I'm convinced that after the few years of study and research that I've done that with all of the minor tweeks and variations in the thumbs-forward grip, the base goal must be to produce a system that allows the sights to track consistently. That's it...everything else is icing on the cake. And this is accomplished by acquiring a grip on the gun that doesn't disturb its natural desire to track straight up and down - or at least to bring it back to the same spot if for some reason it tracks to one side or the other.

Everything else seems to be secondary. Some people get behind the gun; others don't. Some crush down with their support hands; others don't. Some use a variation of an isometric tension (push-pull or side-to-side); some don't. Heck - some even ride up on the trigger guard while others don't. My attempt to understand it all has brought me back to the basic idea that that all must first stay out of the gun's ability to track up and down and then add any additional beneficial qualities (i.e. reduced muzzle flip, etc).

That's all really good stuff.

The grip's goal: neutrality. If there's no uneven pressure anywhere in the grip, when the gun fires, the sights will track up and down along the same path. That's the most important thing the grip must provide. After that, like you said, it's all icing on the cake. It really doesn't matter how far the sight goes up, as long as it comes right back to where it started from.

be

[ER_STL]

One final reply and then I'll leave the thread alone...

I reinforced just how much of a difference the shape of the grip of the gun can make. I fondled a CZ P01, CZ-75B, Sig P229 and a Kimber Pro Carry (my favorite) tonight at Cabela's. I've handled all of these guns before but I went this time with the specific purpose of seeing how far behind the gun my support hand would be. Since they all have more rounded grips I had ample contact behind each gun. The Kimber made it clear why the thumbs-forward grip works so well on the 1911. The very rounded grip panels allow the support hand to meet up with the strong hand back almost on the mainspring itself. I didn't realize that this was how far my support hand was behind a 1911 until I looked. Even though I index the grip the same way on the 1911 as I do on my Glock, for whatever reason I don't get any contact on the backstrap of the latter. I can only assume that the flat profile just doesn't fit me well.

[Flexmoney]

I was gonna get into the different fit from different guns if I posted again. (figured we had enough stuff to let soak, for now).

Good observation.

[sherpa]

I don't have any more pictures, and our camera is dead.

Mike's pics and description look pretty good to me. His pics are much like the grip I am currently using...which is a bit different than the grip that ER STL linked to in post #54

One follow-up...

With the support palm partly reaching the backstrap, where does the trigger guard rest your support index finger? Does it still rest in between the 1st and 2nd knuckle, or only on top of the 2nd knuckle? Just want to compare as there are no photos showing the front of the grip and when I try to have my support palm grab a part of the backstrap (6:00-6:30), the trigger guard already rests on the 2nd knuckle, unlike previously where it rested in between the 2 knuckles. Now there's a feeling like I'm gripping more of the rear than the front. Cheers!

Joel

[Hartmann]

I started to notice the difference in how the front sight tracks with each grip. With thumbs forward it tends to come back down close to target if I don't do anything with the rest of my body to disturb it. With my thumbs locked down it seemed like the sight would settle above target and require additional, manual correction to bring it back down to target.

FWIW, I have noticed the same thing in my current journey away from the thumbs-up "combat" grip to the BE grip. My sights now come back to the same place more consistently than before. And thanks for creating this thread as I've learned a lot as a lurker.

Also -- and I know this is entirely beside your main point here -- for your carry guns you might look into using AGrip instead of grip tape. Agrip is softer, more like suede and won't tear your clothes up, yet provides a surer grip.

[punchdrunk]

On this subject. I have a problem with my weak hand thumb touching my slide release, preventing slide lock at the end of a magazine. I asked a few old hands for help and they said to point the thumb but not touch the slide with it. However when I do that, I feel like I have less control of the gun. It feels horrible to me. shooting a 1911 btw. Any suggestions?

[Singlestack]

On this subject. I have a problem with my weak hand thumb touching my slide release, preventing slide lock at the end of a magazine. I asked a few old hands for help and they said to point the thumb but not touch the slide with it. However when I do that, I feel like I have less control of the gun. It feels horrible to me. shooting a 1911 btw. Any suggestions?

Almost everything new will feel different. IMO, touching the gun with the weak thumb is a loser. Don't worry about controling the pistol.

[benos]

On this subject. I have a problem with my weak hand thumb touching my slide release, preventing slide lock at the end of a magazine. I asked a few old hands for help and they said to point the thumb but not touch the slide with it. However when I do that, I feel like I have less control of the gun. It feels horrible to me. shooting a 1911 btw. Any suggestions?

With some sustained practice, not touching will feel natural. And in most cases, in the end you will shoot better and more consistently if you keep your weak hand thumb off the frame/slide-stop.

be

[ER_STL]

Just a quick update...

I decided to break the Glock 19 back out and see if I really needed grip-tape or a grip-modification to it. My goal was to run the gun naked and see how well my grip maintained during rapid fire. I brought the target in close (5 yards) and put about 100 rounds through the gun with my focus being on the target, and not the sights. I did this because I've found that I'm prone to flinching more if I'm really concentrating on the front sight. If I shift my focus to the target I tend to let my body relax more and allow my grip to do its thing. Besides, trying to track stock Glock sights is like trying to following a bouncing basketball while peeking through a hole in a brick wall.

Recently I had been using a much softer grip pressure with an emphasis on keep the hands together with a slight compression in the chest. It was probably subconscious because I didn't necessarily try to flex my chest but rather let my body worry about keeping the hands together. Also - I focused pretty heavily on ensuring that I had a strong cant in the support wrist (i.e. that it was locked). I've been pontificating the grip so much recently that this time I simply gripped it and ripped it. When I brought the hands together to make the grip and indexed my support hand onto the gun, I ensured that I had a tight fit and then really clamped it down firmly - harder than I have been doing for the most part. I didn't worry about the cant in my wrist but rather pushed the gun out into my line of sight until just short of elbow lock (the Glock's grip angle gives me a close-to-locked cant in my wrist naturally in this position). Then - from there - the only thing I really worried about was running the trigger smoothly while watching my shots hit the paper.

With the flat-sided and slick Glock, a very firm grip from the support hand was needed to keep the support hand from moving around a bit on the gun. The grip felt *very* solid though and I think I like this type of setup better than a heavy cant and lighter pressure. It felt like the gun was being thrown back onto target immediately after the shot breaking, but without me trying to put it there. It was kinda like taking a ruler, holding it against a table, and then pulling a side back and letting it snap. Without a timer to verify I can only guess at my split times, which were probably around .20 sec/shot. I was running 115gr PD with 4.3gr Titegroup.

As long as I let my grip do its thing and didn't try to influence the gun with the rest of my body, my groups stayed within about a 3-6" circle. IOW, the front sight was coming back down to pretty close to the original point of aim. I'm assuming that with a standard Bill Drill these should have been 'A' shots (granted, the target was at 5 yards and not 7). By focusing on the target I think running the trigger became more of a timing thing and not a visual reference on the front sight. I could tell immediately by feel when I broke a shot too soon as the gun *felt* differently during the next cycle of recoil.

The bad - I'm still pushing my shots to 3 o'clock (I'm a lefty). I'm either milking the grip or pushing the trigger to the right but I can't figure out which it is. I followed the advice on the board and shot my last 25 shots at around 25 yards for grouping. Also - slide-bite is still a slight issue. If I don't make a conscious effort to ensure that my strong hand thumb stays under the tang when I flag it for the support hand I'll end up rubbing the slide against it when it cycles. I didn't cut myself open but I did develop a nice red line along the knuckle.

All in all though it was a neat experience. I think I'm going to continue with this type of grip setup (very firm support hand grip, lesser on the strong hand). Next time I shoot I'll run the same drills with the M&P9. I'm pretty confident that I'll have improved results since that gun fits me better.