A more in-depth set of question on the thumbs-forward grip

[CSEMARTIN]

the modern day auto grip

You are too modest Brian!

ER_STL,

Brian invented this grip. It should be called the Enos grip, or the BE grip, or Brian should call it "my" grip that everyone copied (including TGO) because it's the perfect grip, etc.

[ER_STL]

Brian invented this grip. It should be called the Enos grip, or the BE grip, or Brian should call it "my" grip that everyone copied (including TGO) because it's the perfect grip, etc.

I know - that's why I'm asking my questions here. I've spent many hours reviewing archived threads on grip. I also have Duane Thomas's Combat Grip article favorited. I've read it many times as well.

I have a few shooting DVDs -- including Matt Burkett's volumes 1-3 -- but none have gone into the detail that I enjoy seeing when learning the hows and whys to something like this. Most simply say something along the lines of "put your hands here" or "grip it like this", etc, etc.

[ER_STL]

Well, I was able to do a little shooting over the weekend. I played around with a few different styles of grip to see what I could notice. A few random thoughts...

- When forming the thumbs-forward grip, I concentrate on getting my hands lined up first before extending the arms out (as I noted above in my post with pictures). I use my elbows to lock the wrists. IOW, I extend out my arms until straight and then bring the hands back to my face - sights aligned - until the support wrist is aggressively canted (locked). Now, I don't actually do all of that and actually push the gun out into the locked position automatically but I illustrated that to show how I first learned how to use the bend in the elbows to lock the wrists. In this position my wrists are very firm in pushing the gun out towards the target but my hands aren't necessarily trying to crush down on the gun. In fact, with my support wrist locked like that I find it difficult to apply a crushing, side-to-side grip on the gun. My shoulders are hunched up slightly to help bring the gun into alignment with my eyes without having to crane my neck over too much (I have a longer neck). Most everything is relatively relaxed aside from the wrists, which feel like they are both pushing the gun out towards the target.

But what I did Sunday was try to go slooooow and just let the sights go where they may. I didn't try to bear down on the gun but rather just concentrated on pressing the trigger without a flinch and then observing what the front sight did. Also, I tried to see and feel what my arms and shoulders were doing in order to answer some of the questions I've had as to how the recoil impulse is transferred. What I noticed is that as long as I kept an ample amount of grip on the gun (firm but not crushing), my hands stayed together through 5-10 shots without having to readjust. Also, I can feel the recoil going into my arms, which absorbed most of it. The rest went into my shoulders and then down through my legs. Sometimes I'd feel it in my eyes which meant that perhaps my shoulders or neck were tense enough to take some of it. I suspect that my support hand 1) was behind the grip enough, 2) had enough friction on the grip, and 3) hand enough friction on the fingers of the strong hand gun. Combined, the support hand stayed put.

- As I strung through a magazine of shots I would start to pick up the pace a bit. My goal was always to see the front sight back on the target again before taking the next shot. My grip seemed to be bringing the sight back onto the target in a pretty consistent fashion, provided that I didn't flinch or do anything else with my arms to disturb it. I don't have a timer but I'd say that .5 second splits were comfortable but as I went faster than that I started to lose the sight a bit and/or was unable to call the next shot on the target. I'm not sure if after-market sights would help or not as the M&P's rear sight (dots) is very busy and I sometimes find it difficult to find the front sight in/behind them. With my Buckmark .22 (with straight black and open sights) I can call my shots as fast as I can pull the trigger but the gun has little recoil.

- I was shooting at about 7 yards. My groups were tight enough to stay in an A zone target but I was consistently pushing my shots directly to 3 o'clock (I'm a lefty). I'm guessing this is due to milking with my strong hand in anticipation of the shot since with dry-fire the front sight stays put.

- I also tried gripping the gun with the revolver thumbs-down. What I found was that if I kept the overall concept of allowing the sights to go where they may and not try to muscle the gun, I was still able to shoot at relatively the same speed. The sights still tracked in a consistent fashion when I didn't try to influence them. Interestingly enough though, muzzle flip was greater. I used the smallest backstrap on the gun for that grip (I use the largest for thumbs forward).

- Shooting my little 442 one-handed helps desensitize me to the recoil and report of shooting the M&P9. The 442 has a stout blast and recoil to it and after it, the M&P feels like a .22...lol. Also, it's interesting to be able to see and feel the action of the slide on an automatic after shooting a revolver, which transmits *everything* directly to the shooting hand. Because I'm able to get my hand very high up on the back of the gun with the 442, there's very little muzzle flip. Rather, the impulse is almost entirely backwards into the hand. As a result, the gun isn't much fun to shoot after about 50 rounds...

All in all it was a great experience because I was able to see and feel a lot during the shooting. Relaxing my pace an not trying to go faster than the front sight allowed me to go was a revelation unto itself, despite knowing that I should have been doing that all along. It helped me let the gun do its thing without trying to influence it at all. I'm guessing that once I get my grip sorted out and learn to pick up the front sight faster after the shot, my split times should drop.

EDIT - one more thing...4.2gr of 231 under a PD 124gr bullet is diiiiirty. When I ran Bill Drill I watched a cloud of smoke drift off into the sunset...lol. I was glad the wind was pushing it that way and not back into my face.

Edited May 26, 2009 by ER_STL

[ER_STL]

Quick follow-up question - do you all try and get the support hand as tight as possible around the strong hand? I find that the hands stay together best when my support hand is tightly wrapped around the strong hand so that there isn't a gap anywhere between the two hands. I think this is what Matt Burkett is trying to accomplish with his "pinch and roll"...he's trying to get the support hand to stay tight against the strong hand and not come forward as the grip is being applied.

Again, to summarize, when I bring my support hand onto the gun I start by wrapping the fingers around (over the strong hand fingers), pull tightly, and then wrap the palm side around onto the gun. This effectively *tightens* the skin on the strong hand in such a way to reduce or eliminate any play between the two hands. The problem I'm now having with it though is that it's more of a deliberate act and, as a result, I haven't yet figured out how to draw into this grip without taking forever to get my hands lined up the way I want them.

EDIT - by tight, I mean tight contact, not hard gripping pressure. When my grip is formed as described above I don't have to crush down to get the hands to stay together.

Edited June 1, 2009 by ER_STL

[CHA-LEE]

ER_STL> I was listening to one of Matt Burkett's radio shows and he mentioned something about the grip that really turned the light bulb on for me. He was talking with another top shooter about grip and they were talking about having a 70/30 or 60/40 grip pressure with the support hand being the greater of the two. But then he said that most people don't realize that their weak hand does not have the same grip pressure capability of their strong hand so they really have to use a lot more pressure with their weak hand. For example, if your plan is to do a 60/40 grip you would probably have to input 80% - 90% effort on your weak hand bring it up to the 60% of the strong hand. I hope this makes sense in how I explained it.

Just another thing to consider in your voyage of breaking down the thumbs forward grip.

[ER_STL]

Quick update - shot some more today. I'm starting to be convinced that *too* much dry-fire time and not enough live-fire can be bad for the analytically pontificating type like myself.

It was nasty hot and humid out today and my hands were as greasy as can be. Still, without gripping too hard, I was able to keep decent groups and split-times with my M&P9 and I wasn't having to regrip after each string of shots. I'm wondering if I'm making too big of a deal out of how the grip *feels* and not putting enough emphasis on how the grip performs when I shoot.

Furthermore - and of additional interest - was that I started to notice the difference in how the front sight tracks with each grip. With thumbs forward it tends to come back down close to target if I don't do anything with the rest of my body to disturb it. With my thumbs locked down it seemed like the sight would settle above target and require additional, manual correction to bring it back down to target. Granted I was able to do that at a decent pace but it was interesting to see the differences.

Speaking of seeing - I'm still trying to figure out what it is I *should* be seeing at different shot speeds. Once the pace picked up (i.e. .5 split times and lower) I tended to grab a fuzzy "flash-sight" picture and not any sort of a hard focus on the front sight. Come to think of it, the only time I had a harder focus on the front sight was when I was trying to slow fire for accuracy.

As always - thanks to everyone who has responded.

[benos]

Speaking of seeing - I'm still trying to figure out what it is I *should* be seeing at different shot speeds. Once the pace picked up (i.e. .5 split times and lower) I tended to grab a fuzzy "flash-sight" picture and not any sort of a hard focus on the front sight. Come to think of it, the only time I had a harder focus on the front sight was when I was trying to slow fire for accuracy.

A good way to work on that is to shoot, but don't shoot at a target. Point your pistol at the backstop, look "toward" the front sight, and start pulling the trigger. Keep doing that with the goal being to "see what you can see."

be

[Duane Thomas]

I've spent many hours reviewing archived threads on grip. I also have Duane Thomas's Combat Grip article favorited. I've read it many times as well.

Awwww.....

[Duane Thomas]

but as I went faster than that I started to lose the sight a bit and/or was unable to call the next shot on the target.

Try consciously keeping your head straight up and down; many folks have a tendency to lower the head somewhat so they're actually looking out the top of the eye socket. This makes it hard to track the sight in recoil because it's actually bouncing out above where you can see; your view is actually being blocked by the top of the orbital ridge.

Also, instead of an ultra-hard sight focus, trying relaxing your vision a bit to include more of the surrounding area. An easy way to check if you're doing this: try to see the brass as it exits the gun. When you can do that, you'll find you can also see the sight in its full arc of recoil. One problem with the whole "focus on the front sight" advice we've all heard countless times is that, with your vision narrowed down to about the size of nickel around the front sight, you can't track in through its recoil arc because it actually bounces up out of your cone of vision with every shot.

Head up, widen your visual field. And see what happens - literally.

[Harry Potter]

Nothing personal, but as for non native English speaker some of the guys here using a terms of the very best of Friedreich Nietzsche, to explain, how to prepare a boiled eggs:)

I would support the opinion that the good or maybe the best way is to shoot some bullets and observe what happens with the grip. Precision, fast shooting on close distances etc.

It is not a panacea, to get a grip thumbs forward. Grip requires a special approach depending on anatomy of the shooter and pistol grip ergonomics. IMO the important point is to have a high grip and then personal preferences opening up the doors.

The thing I found comfortable which works for me is a support hand trigger finger on the corner of the trigger guard. Sure it is great if the pistol has one:) It becomes a kind of an anchor for the pistol horizontal error elimination and influences the natural muzzle return to the primary position after shot has been called. There is no need even to put an extensive pressure to it, it works naturally.

As a good point of reference is earlier this year met in CZ Extreme Angus Hobdell, who shoots incredibly fast with the trigger finger on the guard, but what I found that I am losing some firmity in the grip by eliminating that finger off the other grip fingers and trigger finger seems to me as a Nr. 1 finger in a pistol support. I've seen Adam Tyc (PD World champ), who has his finger right on the corner, tried it and found it really nice. Appears it is allowing him to have a better control of the sights while remaining the firm grip. I have tried it in live fire drills with far transitions and I found it saves some time for me and I can faster acquire the sight alignment.

Here are some pictures for the clarity of what I mean:

Hope it will help to find your own grip. Good luck.

Saulius

P.S. Sorry if some clarity missed because of my English

Edited June 28, 2009 by Duane Thomas

[Duane Thomas]

Saulius, the grip in your image is one I've experimented with, as well. It seemed to me to have the the virtue of allowing the support hand to get up even higher on the gun, for more leverage to control muzzle flip in recoil, than with all the fingers together under the trigger guard. For me, however, I found I had a tendency to "muscle" the trigger guard with the finger wrapped around it, thus leading to inconsistent sight tracking. That's just me, though. Doesn't mean it might not work great for someone else.

[Harry Potter]

Saulius, the grip in your image is one I've experimented with, as well. It seemed to me to have the the virtue of allowing the support hand to get up even higher on the gun, for more leverage to control muzzle flip in recoil, than with all the fingers together under the trigger guard. For me, however, I found I had a tendency to "muscle" the trigger guard with the finger wrapped around it, thus leading to inconsistent sight tracking. That's just me, though. Doesn't mean it might not work great for someone else.

Hello Thomas,

Thanks for the nice observations.

That was the game between a classic and descried grip. I have to admit that I've noticed the inconsistent sight tracking, anther words not just correct up and down, since I have been shooting Limited division with a "*thumb rest [generic]*". I did exactly used it as a gas, not like a thumb rest, because I have been puting a pressure to it all the time and that way I was able to shoot faster. Front sight travel was like on the original AKMS (AK-47 version), when front sight tracked to 1300 hours.

The biggest advantage I've noticed on the middle distance targets, where appeared you can "smoke", but then after scoring you are informed about D's or in worst way a "mike". As BE says in "Beyond Fundamentals", you can shoot as fast as you can see. Simply my answer is that I don't care much about the proper sight picture travel, as long as I can hit A's and faster that with a classic grip, which I am also using on the far distances and even when it is really close and you just shooting by body drive, I am using even a grip with the support hand's trigger finger on the trigger guard.

Seems complicated and had to implement, but I already used to it and unconscious signals from the brain gives the commands to choose one or another grip for the next group of the targets, because I am trying to be open minded and observe as much as possible.

I forgot to mention and I am sorry for that, discussion gets another shape, because I am shooting production Glock 17 and that needs a special approach, because Glock never forgives you any of minor mistakes done with 1911/2011 trigger pull.

We are not allowed here to tune up the trigger job, so I use minus connector with original springs.

That one on the picture is my air soft Glock for training, with which I have tried to work on the first shot after draw, but found it different than with the real gun and I gave up. And sight are different, because I use on my G17 .100 wide, lowest possible Dawsons which I found brilliant, just made of a bit soft steel and are very fragile for the hard use on duty for example. Dropped the gun ones and found the front sight completely deformed.

Saulius

DVC

[Duane Thomas]

Why would the draw for an Airsoft G17 be any different than with the real gun? I practice regularly with an Airsoft G17, and I don't notice any difference in how they draw and index.

[Harry Potter]

Why would the draw for an Airsoft G17 be any different than with the real gun? I practice regularly with an Airsoft G17, and I don't notice any difference in how they draw and index.

Draw itself is OK, just the sight picture and the second shot are as of a toy. Trigger pull is completely different.

I quit practicing airsoft Glock and sold it. I found it could have make me a bad influence.

[RobMoore]

I still wasn't able to convince myself as to how the support hand would stay on the gun

I see many heavy lifters come through our academy who have trouble keeping their support hand on the gun. They can't understand why 5'9 170 me can keep a grip together, and 6'2 280 them cannot. The two most common things they are doing to cause this is are

#1 having a too stiff or locked out support arm. The gun wants to move rearward, the support hand wants to stay in place. The gun wins.

#2 They squeeze too hard with their support hand. The hand is barely in place before they even fire even under all that pressure, because it wants to slip to an area of lower pressure. The recoil just kicks off a hand that already wanted to move away. Look at your strong hand fingers on the gun. You will probably notice that the fingers make sort of a wedge shape, with the middle knuckles as the "point". Squeeze hard enough on both sides of a wedge and your hand will slip off of it.

What I've found to keep the support hand on the gun is the just enough pressure applied with the bicep and pectoral muscles, pressing the heels of the hands together. To the non-believer linebacker, I sometimes show him by taking the gun, gripping it as usual but leaving my weak hand open with my fingers stretched out. I blast through a magazine, and at the end my weak hand is still in place, firmly against the gun and the heel of my strong hand.

Edited June 28, 2009 by RobMoore

[Harry Potter]

I still wasn't able to convince myself as to how the support hand would stay on the gun

I see many heavy lifters come through our academy who have trouble keeping their support hand on the gun. They can't understand why 5'9 170 me can keep a grip together, and 6'2 280 them cannot. The two most common things they are doing to cause this is are

#1 having a too stiff or locked out support arm. The gun wants to move rearward, the support hand wants to stay in place. The gun wins.

#2 They squeeze too hard with their support hand. The hand is barely in place before they even fire even under all that pressure, because it wants to slip to an area of lower pressure. The recoil just kicks off a hand that already wanted to move away. Look at your strong hand fingers on the gun. You will probably notice that the fingers make sort of a wedge shape, with the middle knuckles as the "point". Squeeze hard enough on both sides of a wedge and your hand will slip off of it.

What I've found to keep the support hand on the gun is the just enough pressure applied with the bicep and pectoral muscles, pressing the heels of the hands together. To the non-believer linebacker, I sometimes show him by taking the gun, gripping it as usual but leaving my weak hand open with my fingers stretched out. I blast through a magazine, and at the end my weak hand is still in place, firmly against the gun and the heel of my strong hand.

Finally when it comes to the grip, I strongly believe, that it is a matter of understanding, practice and experiments including anatomy of the shooter and shape of the pistol grip.

Watched your video. Would be glad to shoot some IDPA which I have never tried to.

[Flexmoney]

I still wasn't able to convince myself as to how the support hand would stay on the gun

I see many heavy lifters come through our academy who have trouble keeping their support hand on the gun. They can't understand why 5'9 170 me can keep a grip together, and 6'2 280 them cannot. The two most common things they are doing to cause this is are

#1 having a too stiff or locked out support arm. The gun wants to move rearward, the support hand wants to stay in place. The gun wins.

#2 They squeeze too hard with their support hand. The hand is barely in place before they even fire even under all that pressure, because it wants to slip to an area of lower pressure. The recoil just kicks off a hand that already wanted to move away. Look at your strong hand fingers on the gun. You will probably notice that the fingers make sort of a wedge shape, with the middle knuckles as the "point". Squeeze hard enough on both sides of a wedge and your hand will slip off of it.

What I've found to keep the support hand on the gun is the just enough pressure applied with the bicep and pectoral muscles, pressing the heels of the hands together. To the non-believer linebacker, I sometimes show him by taking the gun, gripping it as usual but leaving my weak hand open with my fingers stretched out. I blast through a magazine, and at the end my weak hand is still in place, firmly against the gun and the heel of my strong hand.

While I see the same thing, I usually attribute it to the shooter "holding onto" the gun with the strong hand.

So, I'd do the opposite.

[RobMoore]

Can you expand on that? Do you mean their strong hand is gripping too hard, and they should loosen it?

[ER_STL]

#2 They squeeze too hard with their support hand. The hand is barely in place before they even fire even under all that pressure, because it wants to slip to an area of lower pressure. The recoil just kicks off a hand that already wanted to move away. Look at your strong hand fingers on the gun. You will probably notice that the fingers make sort of a wedge shape, with the middle knuckles as the "point". Squeeze hard enough on both sides of a wedge and your hand will slip off of it.

What I've found to keep the support hand on the gun is the just enough pressure applied with the bicep and pectoral muscles, pressing the heels of the hands together. To the non-believer linebacker, I sometimes show him by taking the gun, gripping it as usual but leaving my weak hand open with my fingers stretched out. I blast through a magazine, and at the end my weak hand is still in place, firmly against the gun and the heel of my strong hand.

I think I know exactly what you're saying here and I've tried for the longest time to figure out how those who advocated a very strong support hand grip could keep this from happening. If my hands are sticky and/or I have grip tape on the gun I can grip very firmly like this since I can generate enough friction to overcome the "wedge effect", as you have described it. But if my hands are slippery my strong hand wants to squirt right out of my support hand...even during dry-fire.

I have since convinced myself that the shape, size, and configuration of both the shooter's hands and the grip on the gun make the difference. Also - without grip-tape - I think it is indeed very helpful to get just a little bit of support hand behind the gun. I've struggled with this for the longest time until I realized that, on my M&P (and definitely not on my Glock with its flat sides) I was accomplishing this. I'm getting *just* enough meat back there to keep the support hand on the gun during rapid fire.

When I shot last weekend I realized how little "grip" I really need to hang onto the gun. Like you, I concentrate on making and keeping the grip and then let the gun do the rest. I don't have a very strong grip on the gun with either hand; rather, the tension in my forearms is due to locking the support wrist (and canting the strong one) to brace for muzzle flip. I seem to be having good success with this. Now - as alluded to in my previous post - I need to learn how to "see what I can see".

[Flexmoney]

Can you expand on that? Do you mean their strong hand is gripping too hard, and they should loosen it?

If the hands come apart in recoil, why is the strong hand the one still on the gun?

[RobMoore]

Hmm?? Because it is behind the gun when it gets pushed backwards, occupies more surface area on the grip?

I would think that the weak hand isn't the one on the gun because it is still occupying the space where the gun used to be, because it was being held in place, not held onto the gun.

[Harry Potter]

Hmm?? Because it is behind the gun when it gets pushed backwards, occupies more surface area on the grip?

I would think that the weak hand isn't the one on the gun because it is still occupying the space where the gun used to be, because it was being held in place, not held onto the gun.

Guys! Maybe you are talking here of shooting Desert Eagle .50AE? or .44 Mag?

IMO. If you have a proper grip by using all surface of the pistol, for example Glock 17.If you are giving not enough tension in the muscles, then sometimes pistols slips out of the support hand, but if it is equally shared between both hands and holding it at least as during a regular handshake is good enough to control the gun and fairly good enough to shoot at a high speed.

[RobMoore]

Not quite a .50AE, but I do teach officers/agents on the SIG P229 in .357SIG.

Remember that video where the girl shoots her b/f's DE and the gun smacks her in the face for her efforts? I've seen that happen twice with female recruits that didn't pay attention in class.

Edited June 30, 2009 by RobMoore

[ER_STL]

Hmm?? Because it is behind the gun when it gets pushed backwards, occupies more surface area on the grip?

I would think that the weak hand isn't the one on the gun because it is still occupying the space where the gun used to be, because it was being held in place, not held onto the gun.

Guys! Maybe you are talking here of shooting Desert Eagle .50AE? or .44 Mag?

IMO. If you have a proper grip by using all surface of the pistol, for example Glock 17.If you are giving not enough tension in the muscles, then sometimes pistols slips out of the support hand, but if it is equally shared between both hands and holding it at least as during a regular handshake is good enough to control the gun and fairly good enough to shoot at a high speed.

But in answering Flex's question, the fact that the strong hand is behind the gun is exactly the reason it stays there. It's simply in a better position to accept both the push and flip components of recoil - even those of more powerful handguns. The support hand by contrast is trying to hang on around the front strap and it requires friction against the strong hand, the support side grip of the gun, or both in order to stay there. What I'm finding out though - and what I think both you and Rob have said in this thread - is that the support hand doesn't require an excess amount of grip in order to stay put. When I personally concentrate on making my grip and letting the gun do the rest, the support hand stays in place. If I try to strangle the gun with my support hand I tend to squirt the strong hand back since I don't have long enough fingers to apply a perfectly side-to-side grip (by getting the support hand thumb-meat in a position to press exactly to the fingers). Rather, as Rob said, I'm trying to pinch a wedge and I need additional friction with the gun and my strong hand to prevent the grip from coming apart. I think this is why so many thumbs-forward shooters use grip-tape and pro-grip. This is also why some shooters apply additional isometric tension in the form of a push-pull or (I think in Rob's case) a side-to-side pinch using the chest. Doesn't Ron Avery recommend this (side-to-side pressure from chest) for shooters who are having trouble keeping their hands together?

By the way, during the draw I've started bringing the support hand all the way over to the strong hand side to meet the strong hand the moment the gun goes from down to forward. I've found this to be another AHA! experience for me as I can now consistently index my support hand onto the gun, resulting in a much better overall grip as I bring the gun out and into my line of sight. I was having trouble getting the hands to meet consistently in front of me prior to making this change. I'm sure my grip and draw will continue to evolve but for now this seems to be an additional hurdle that I can clear.

[Harry Potter]

Hmm?? Because it is behind the gun when it gets pushed backwards, occupies more surface area on the grip?

I would think that the weak hand isn't the one on the gun because it is still occupying the space where the gun used to be, because it was being held in place, not held onto the gun.

Guys! Maybe you are talking here of shooting Desert Eagle .50AE? or .44 Mag?

IMO. If you have a proper grip by using all surface of the pistol, for example Glock 17.If you are giving not enough tension in the muscles, then sometimes pistols slips out of the support hand, but if it is equally shared between both hands and holding it at least as during a regular handshake is good enough to control the gun and fairly good enough to shoot at a high speed.

But in answering Flex's question, the fact that the strong hand is behind the gun is exactly the reason it stays there. It's simply in a better position to accept both the push and flip components of recoil - even those of more powerful handguns. The support hand by contrast is trying to hang on around the front strap and it requires friction against the strong hand, the support side grip of the gun, or both in order to stay there. What I'm finding out though - and what I think both you and Rob have said in this thread - is that the support hand doesn't require an excess amount of grip in order to stay put. When I personally concentrate on making my grip and letting the gun do the rest, the support hand stays in place. If I try to strangle the gun with my support hand I tend to squirt the strong hand back since I don't have long enough fingers to apply a perfectly side-to-side grip (by getting the support hand thumb-meat in a position to press exactly to the fingers). Rather, as Rob said, I'm trying to pinch a wedge and I need additional friction with the gun and my strong hand to prevent the grip from coming apart. I think this is why so many thumbs-forward shooters use grip-tape and pro-grip. This is also why some shooters apply additional isometric tension in the form of a push-pull or (I think in Rob's case) a side-to-side pinch using the chest. Doesn't Ron Avery recommend this (side-to-side pressure from chest) for shooters who are having trouble keeping their hands together?

By the way, during the draw I've started bringing the support hand all the way over to the strong hand side to meet the strong hand the moment the gun goes from down to forward. I've found this to be another AHA! experience for me as I can now consistently index my support hand onto the gun, resulting in a much better overall grip as I bring the gun out and into my line of sight. I was having trouble getting the hands to meet consistently in front of me prior to making this change. I'm sure my grip and draw will continue to evolve but for now this seems to be an additional hurdle that I can clear.

Yep, friction is a good thing, especially when your grip style is not intended to squeeze a juice out the handgun... You know what I mean. But there is a flip side of that, because when you have a sweeping draw, you are often getting a bad grip and with a sand paper and special bells and whistles on it, it is hard to recover or slide in to correct.

I am using a get grip by Eric Grauffel which is nice up to 30 Celsius, but over it becomes a sweaty mud what I have faced in a World Shoot Bali last year. That was the first time I have faced the issue we are discussing here.

The draw with a support hand is close, but let's assume that you are shooting a stage with a placement of targets at 160 degrees wide and you want to have a single stance to engage 'em all and you are starting form left to right (being right hander)... What I found, that when in such position you are driving your support hand close up to the holster, it becomes a natural obstacle to have a smooth and fast draw and first target acquisition.