Taylor Thoating

[rhyrlik]

Is the Clymer reamer just a piloted 10 deg cutter or a true Taylor throat where you have a forcing cone, then ~ 1/2" with the lands removed (basically groove dia.), then a very gentle leade into the rifleing?

I dunno.

How about it, Carmoney? Can you shed some light on this? Also, how is this thing piloted? How much slack is there between the cutter ant the top of the lands?

[Tom E]

Is the Clymer reamer just a piloted 10 deg cutter or a true Taylor throat where you have a forcing cone, then ~ 1/2" with the lands removed (basically groove dia.), then a very gentle leade into the rifleing?

I dunno.

How about it, Carmoney? Can you shed some light on this? Also, how is this thing piloted? How much slack is there between the cutter ant the top of the lands?

I was hoping for a response from someone who had Clymer's reamer/cutter. Clymers site is supposed to have a section with dimensioned drawings but it's been "under construction" for over a year since I've been checking. There's so much BS when it comes to Taylor throats. "Taylor throat" has become a term used for things that are not.

[pskys2]

I have one for a PC 625 and one for a .44 M29. Both give the "Taylor" Throating (recut forcing cone with gradual lead in of about a caliber+ to the rifling lands) and work quite easily..

Except if you have a PC with a shortened cylinder tell them first. It will have to be cut shorter.

About the only thing I noticed was a "Reduction" in the size of flyers. It didn't seem to stop them.

Is it worth it?

If you are having a problem with accuracy I'd do it last. There's more to the flyers than the throating.

I borrowed a buddies unthroated 625 and it shot great and much more accurately than my PC 625, with Plated bullets.

One of the reasons I did it was to tinker with the gun. It's one of the reasons I like shooting.

I'd have to agree with Carmoney though, if you're looking at value it's not worth it.

Dave

[rhyrlik]

I did not know Clymer makes a shorter one for the PC gun. I have a couple 25-2's and one has a noticeable constriction in the forcing cone area. My PC 625's are weird in that there does not appear to be a constriction, but rather a loose spot right where the barrel shoulder meets the frame. In either case, I'd like to try it.

[pskys2]

I did not know Clymer makes a shorter one for the PC gun. I have a couple 25-2's and one has a noticeable constriction in the forcing cone area. My PC 625's are weird in that there does not appear to be a constriction, but rather a loose spot right where the barrel shoulder meets the frame. In either case, I'd like to try it.

They don't make a shorter one, but they will shorten one for you at no charge. The standard length won't work on a shortened cylinder PC.

[DougCarden]

UPDATE

Shot three other loads through the gun last night. The Ransom rest is coming and he bought the round butt insert, so we are good to go.

Still have 1 to 2 flyers per cylinder. It this keeps up when I get the ransom rest I will be putting a new cylinder on the old girl......I am keeping the targets so I can compare them to the new ones with the Ransom rest.

I am still happy with the new barrel forcing cone, the 4 shot groups into one cluster just didnt happen before the "taylor" throat treatment......I will have to get my other 25-2 and set it up the same and see how it shoots.

DougC

[Tom E]

UPDATE

Still have 1 to 2 flyers per cylinder. It this keeps up when I get the ransom rest I will be putting a new cylinder on the old girl

DougC

Did you ream the cylinder throats? Or measure them to see what size they are?

[DougCarden]

Nope and nope......If I still have the two flyers per cylinder with the ransom rest, then I will mike the charge holes and see what is going on. I hate to spend upwards of $50 to ream the charge holes when that is half of a new cylinder( of course I will get the new cylinder reamed so they are all the same).......

DougC

[cas]

A 625? The throats are probably fine anyway.

Have you looked into obvious alignment issues, with a range rod?

Edited November 26, 2008 by cas

[Tom E]

A 625? The throats are probably fine anyway.

The 625's I've measured have been .452-.4525. Just the chambers have been undersize. I'd still check if my gun was throwing consistent flyers. The 25-2 throats have all been oversize and 2xoversize, .454-.456.

I noticed my 625 wasn't locking up when cocked SA. So I shot back to back groups with the cyl. locked and unlocked. Groups with the cyl unlocked ran 1"-1 1/2" bigger but with no real flyers, just bigger. This was bagged with a C-More. I noticed the late lockup while sighting in the C-More so I played some. The cyl would lock when shot, I assume the bullet jumping from cyl the barrel moved it into lock, no noticeable spitting and the world didn't end. Just FWIW. I did replace the hand.

Edited November 26, 2008 by Tom E

[DougCarden]

CAS, I havent yet. I know the gun is timed properly and carries up correctly.. ( I had Carmoney go through it) My only concern as that my cylinder stop notches are peened enough that the cylinder isnt "perfect". Is that what the range rod will show?

When it is locked up I can still move the cylinder a little bit, not much, but some.

Thanks,

DougC

[Toolguy]

Doug-

A small amount of movement in lockup doesn't hurt anything. You can peen the material of the notches back where it

came from with a flat bottom punch and a small hammer. That will tighten things up a bit and you get to start over

with the notches the same as new.

[DougCarden]

Warren, unfortunately I have already been doing that.........

Thanks!

DougC

[Tom E]

UPDATE

Shot three other loads through the gun last night. The Ransom rest is coming and he bought the round butt insert, so we are good to go.

Still have 1 to 2 flyers per cylinder. It this keeps up when I get the ransom rest I will be putting a new cylinder on the old girl......I am keeping the targets so I can compare them to the new ones with the Ransom rest.

I am still happy with the new barrel forcing cone, the 4 shot groups into one cluster just didnt happen before the "taylor" throat treatment......I will have to get my other 25-2 and set it up the same and see how it shoots.

DougC

Done anything more?

[DougCarden]

It is getting a new cylinder fit to it right now. Darn SHOT SHOW.....LOL Should have it back in a couple of weeks and will be able to see if it was the other cylinder or not.

I will update when I get some targets. I got a decent camera for Christmas so I will show some targets to illustrate my findings when I can.

DougC

[Ray R.]

I've been following this thread with interest, and would like to add a few things for what its worth....

1] Taylor throating will USUALLY improve the accuracy of a revolver, but not always. It will sometimes reduce fliers IF the fliers are the result of a problem in that portion of the barrell.

2] Any increase in accuracy from Taylor throating is most noticable at longer distances, say from 75 to 100 yards. Handguns used for hunting can sometimes be made acceptably accurate this way, but most good guns can be made acceptabaly accurate by other means and with good loads. It would be a very rare marksman indeed who can tell the differance between a gun that will shoot 4.5 inch groups at 100 yards, and a gun the will do 2.5 inches in the field.

3] Peening the cylinder notches is probably not a good idea, as it is not a reliable way to bring about cylinder/barrell alignment. And it can actually make things much worse. A cylinder that does not lock up tightly usually will give acceptable accuracy, and in some cases accuracy will actually improve as the lock-up loosens!

4] Assuming that barrell/cylinder alignment is acceptable, there are three other places to look for accracy/flier problems:

a) Chamber and chamber throats. Most new S&W 45acp revolvers have tight cylinder throats as opposed to the older models. This usually works with jacketed bullets, but doesn't work as well with cast bullets that are uaually .452" diameter. Opening up the throats to .4525" will usually decrease group size and reduce fliers. ("Hard" cast bullets usually shoot better than "soft" bullets).

Chambers on 625's are usually not very tight, adding to the problem. The reason is that the shooter wants to load six at a time, and truely tight chambers would make that difficult. But for ultimate accuracy, tight chambers are a must. For his reason, 45acp revolver seldom give gilt edged accuracy.

b)Forcing cone. Many 625's I've seen have rough forcing cones that are cut a bit over maximum. Setting the barrell back a turn and re-cutting will help cut down the number of fliers, but this particular fix is usually not worth the effort, as the guns are acceptably accurate enough for their intended purpose.

c) Barrell. The barrels on most present production 625's are smooth, tight, and right. However, if one is really plagued with fliers, fire lapping might help.

d) Oh, yes-- check the muzzle just on the outside chance that there might be nicks, burrs, or an un-even cut.

Set up correctly, a Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt (or any other revolver using "normal" revolver ammo)will almost always out shoot any 45acp revolver due to the loose chamber throats and long jump to the forcing cone inherent in the design. You can't have everything....

Edited January 15, 2009 by Ray R.

[Tom E]

Anything new?

[DougCarden]

Nah, I have been trying not to bug my buddy, he is also building me a new top end for another gun, so I didnt want to be too annoying......

I will give him a call this week and see if he has been able to do that gun, or get it done this week.

DougC

[DougCarden]

Update 3/11/09

Got to the range but it took so damn long using the ransom rest with the 8shot I ran out of time to put the 625 with the new cylinder in the rest.....

I ran inside and shot some groups indoors at 18yds with the same ammo as I did before. Gun is a 625 with a now new cylinder and a 6 1/2in 25.-2 barrel put on it. I had the barrel Taylor throated before I put a new cylinder on.

Here is the results with the Old Cylinder/New Cylinder.

4.3gr VV310 230 .452 LRN Avg. 6 shot group old 3.960 new 2.481

4.8 Solo 1000 230 .452 LRN Avg. 6 shot group old 3.107 new 2.548

4.0 Clays 230 FMJ .451 Avg. 6 shot group old 3.894 new 3.508

As you can see, putting a new cylinder in the gun did shrink the groups. Was it worth the expense, you bet your sweet bippy it was. With the new cylinder if I had a flier, it was one I called.....I had several groups with only one out of the mix and I called it.

I want to thank Toolguy for his sage advice. ...PS....this is the gun that SW told me was junk and would not fix it.......I know, dont pick at the scab.....

The cylinder itself is now going off to Carmoney for a good chamfer and ream for the charge holes if it needs it.

My theory on putting newer 625 cylinders in the 25-2s seems to be a better idea to me now, and my other 25-2 is getting a 625 cylinder fit to it now as well. I will also have the barrel "taylor throated" too, as I shoot more lead bullets than jacketed through them, and it is really nice seeing all the bullets go into the same cluster......

I am going to try and shoot my 25-2 with the 625 cylinder with a traditional throat in the Ransom rest and then do the Taylor throat to see what difference there is. It will be nice to have definitive numbers to see if there is an advantage for the Taylor throating for USPSA type shooting.

I now know my gun is more than accurate enough for any stage that comes up this year!

Hope this is helpful for someone!

DougC

[Bubber]

We shall await your final results with baited breath. Or at least breath that smells like bait. Thanx Doug later rdd

[Tom E]

Thx for the feedback. I got the 45 and 38 Taylor throat reamers. Just have to let the range get to where I can go shoot 100 yd groups for a baseline (my 6" 627 is going to a silhouette match or two in between shooting pins). 625 needs 50 yd baseline groups.

[Gregg K]

Thx for the feedback. I got the 45 and 38 Taylor throat reamers. Just have to let the range get to where I can go shoot 100 yd groups for a baseline (my 6" 627 is going to a silhouette match or two in between shooting pins). 625 needs 50 yd baseline groups.

Tom

Did you ever do any testing and arrive at a conclusion?

[DougCarden]

Gregg, All I can add is that my backup 25-2 is done at the smith, with the taylor throating done. When I pick it up, hopefully soon, I will be handing off my new to my 627 PRO and a new 6 1/2 barrel that will be taylor thoated as well. It works for me.

I dont have any info on the other degree cuts you are looking at for the .45 either, but when I talk to him I will ask his opinion!

Good luck on your project!

DougC

[Tom E]

Thx for the feedback. I got the 45 and 38 Taylor throat reamers. Just have to let the range get to where I can go shoot 100 yd groups for a baseline (my 6" 627 is going to a silhouette match or two in between shooting pins). 625 needs 50 yd baseline groups.

Tom

Did you ever do any testing and arrive at a conclusion?

Yes, I cut Taylor throats in both my 627's, a 4" pro and 6" Lew Horton PC version. This was ~5 months ago and I didn't enshrine the data except the chrono data is in my book.

Most of my concern was getting short 38s to shoot decently in my 4" Pro. I got slight velocity increase ~1.5%. Not big but there. Groups shrank also, 8 rd groups, a full cylinder. My raggedy-ass 2 1/2+" 25 yd groups shrank to more reasonable 1 1/2" groups. This is with Fed brass trimmed to .900", Fed 100, 147 gr Precision FP sized .358, 1.200" oal, 3.9 gr Solo 1000. 892 fps, 9.7 SD from my 4" Pro.

I shoot the 230 gr wadcutter "logs" out of my 6" 627 for pins. I had shot some at a 50 yd target before taylor throating it, just screwing around checking windage while I was sighting it for 25 ft. It threw the 230's all over, 12" plus "groups?". After throating it puts them in a 5" group. Not what the bullet was meant for by any means but interesting.

[jjanglin]

Ive been reading and following the taylor throating posts, I feel that along with a 5, 10 or 11 degree

throat you also have to use a throating reamer to taper the rifleing ahead of the cut the 5,10 or 11

degree cutter makes. I cant find the papers I kept from the warrent officer who took me under his

wing to work in the Armories while I was in the military, but I know he taught us to use throating reamers

to taper the foricing cone/rifleing ahead of all the chamber work.

I believe this is What Mr. Schuemann is saying.

I do this especially on the 40 S&W limited guns so ya can load the rounds long.

Ive read that you dont need to have a smooth forcing cone taper in a revolver, well I dont

agree with this at all, when I replaced the barrels on the two revolvers Ive done of mine cone is like a mirror. On the 686

I put a shilen barrel on I did it with a 11 degree cuter and just lapped it, I shot about 400 rounds through it

(38 super) 158 grain using longshot. and at 25 yards did ok 2 inch groups with an occasional round out some

3 to four inch from the cluster, at 50 yards they where at about 5-6 inch groups with a flyer now and then

just outside the "C" zone. I took the barrel off and did it like I mentioned above- same bullet/load

at 25 yards right on top of each other and at 50 yards 3-4 four inch groups, some right close maybe

3/4 to an inch, I was shooting off the bench braced on my range bag.

Ive done this also to one of my customers guns which I put a shilen barrel on an open style revolver

it is a 627 8 shooter with a comp on it and it is very accurate his name is Dennis Lorenson

he shot the 3 day match Mike and Jay set up in July he just loves the gun.

Jim

Sailors