Condition 3 (unloaded) Table Start - New Draw Test

[dirtypool40]

We shot CM06-11 this past weekend, with an unloaded start.

We don't do this kind of draw much anymore in the US but I figured I could post here and get some times from around the world, and get some stateside BE-ers to try it and report back.

So we're clear and there's no confusion.

Standing facing table, palms flat on table, as in CM06-11. Gun is unloaded and flat on table. HAMMER DOWN. Dot can be on for Open. One mag is on table. You may load from the table or the belt. (I'm interested to see which is faster.)

Open target at 10y. Give us ten draws, time, points, and HF.

I ran about 8-10 of these the other day trying to figure out some semblence of a technique, and came up with a rough average of 1.85. For me, right now, anything sub 2.0 is solid and I had a best of a 1.59. Yesterday, in the match, I was happy with a 1.77 to a small popper.

I load from the table, and roll the gun to the left so I am racking between thumb and forefinger, in front of the ejection port.

(Oh BTW, Mods - if there's already a thread on this, feel free to lock and re-route)

Edited July 9, 2006 by dirtypool40

[EricW]

Standing or sitting at the start?

[dirtypool40]

original post modified to include start. Let's just focus on the draw, not getting up or how to sit.

I said hands on table so it's like the classifier, and consistent, no "IPSC monkey".

Enjoy....

[scorch]

IPSC monkey?

[dirtypool40]

IPSC monkey?

The tensed up, hovering over the pistol, position some shooters adopt when told to start "hands relaxed" or "arms hanging naturally at sides". They look like a monkey, hence IPSC MONKEY.

[EricW]

original post modified to include start. Let's just focus on the draw, not getting up or how to sit.

Eric,

My only point was that - at least for me - I shoot a hell of a lot faster standing than sitting. Sorry for interfering...

[dirtypool40]

not at all, good to clarify. And I agree, given the choice I'd stand up.

[EricW]

Dryfire, I was able to slide in under 2.0 tonight - and squeak in under 1.8. I think 2.0 will simply become my planned standard for this. Add two or three tenths for sitting. With practice, I think I could match sitting times pretty closely with standing. Maybe that's a plan at the range some day.

Loading off the belt is the way to fly standing or sitting. It was good to play with this drill tonight because it's now incredibly obvious that as long as my belt is accessible, drawing my mag from there is always the best route - because I know exactly where the mag is and I've practiced retreiving it from there about a bazillion times. Putting a mag on the the table may be tempting and may save a tenth or two in some situations, but I'll run with the technique I have down cold wherever possible.

[XRe]

Consider this. A mag can be positioned on the table on it's side, pointed into the magwell, but only barely not touching the gun. The draw consists of a (controlled) motion with the weak hand grabbing the slide/scope to steady the gun, and the strong hand pushing the mag into the gun and then continuing on to make a grip. Rack. Bang.

I'm not saying that's the best way - and there's a certain risk if you go about it in an uncontrolled fashion (say "Bye bye, magazine!"). But, it's worth taking a look at....

[EricW]

XRe,

If I was at an outlaw 3 gun match and load and fire one shot was the entire stage, I would strongly consider some type of "trick" to gain an edge - primarily because the point incentive of doing so is so high.

In USPSA - no way in heck. There would be very little to motivate me to do something I hadn't practiced in the name of shaving a couple tenths and possibly screwing the pooch in the process. I'm perfectly happy running with the pack on the shorter stages and making up time on the longer, higher value stages.

But...I'm a C-class loser, so that's the way I think these days...

[dirtypool40]

Loading off the belt is the way to fly standing or sitting.

try it live fire andlet me know what the difference in time is.

I started Gun laying on left side, mag to it's left laying on it's back. My hands were "down" 6 o'clock from each thing I wanted to grab. Some folks start outside and move in but then you have to "hit" two different grabs. I just move the hands "up" about six inches as one unit and I have made the grab.

I haven't tried it off the belt, mostly because I figured it was the "intent" of the classifier and didn't want to get it thrown out. I'll hit some times there soon and compare.

[XRe]

In USPSA - no way in heck. There would be very little to motivate me to do something I hadn't practiced

And you wonder why you stay in C???.... Silly boy. Try it in practice a few times. I would be extremely hesitant to whip out a trick I'd never tried, as well. I've practiced it a few times, but not compared times back to load off of belt or load off of table yet...

BTW - I practice loads off the table, as well. I can generally load off a table as fast as off the belt, if I'm standing in front of the table at the start. If I'm seated back from the table, load off the belt is quicker.

Edited July 10, 2006 by XRe

[dirtypool40]

Times......I want TIMES.

[XRe]

Times......I want TIMES.

<igor the hunchback> Yesssss, massssster.... </hunchback>

Next time I practice, I'll do some all three ways and post times for ya

[XRe]

Times you want, times you get I ran all three ways to a 5-ish yard target (seems to be a typical distance for these types of stages, and was where the table happened to be at, so.... ).

Mag in pouch:

2.19, 1.98, 1.84, 2.03, 1.86 D. Avg 1.98. Down 4, total, including the one D

Mag on table:

2.16, 2.07 D, 1.92, 1.81 D, 2.29, 1.89 C. Avg 2.02. Down 7 including the two Ds. The 2.07 one had a bad grip. The 1.81 was me pushing hard and shooting Type 1 focus

The "slide" method:

1.91 C, 1.82, 2.54, 1.87 C, 1.96, 1.78 C, 1.70, 1.82 C, 1.83, 1.53. Avg 1.88. Down 4. The 2.54 was a blown rack - my left hand slipped off the handle - bad juju. The 1.96 was a bad left hand grip - bumped the safety on. If you take the two slowdowns out, it averaged 1.78.

Some notes - you *must* be very technical about how you do this sort of start. There's no tolerance for messing up a step - and rushing it is the perfect way to mess something up. Move snappy, but move smooth.

For the "slide", it helps to sit the gun on the table and run the mag in and out a couple of times to find the optimal angle to lay the mag at. Then apply your pressure to the mag lightly at first and ramp it up as you insert the mag. It takes a little bit of touch to get it right, but once you've got it, you've got it. It's quite obviously faster for me - by a tenth on average, even with average # of screwups.

So, practice it, EricW :D :D

Edit to add - that 1.53 I did using the slide?? That was the first time I felt like a GM in a long long long time.... Good to start seeing those breakthroughs again. Maybe I'll get that card someday

Edited July 17, 2006 by XRe

[dirtypool40]

I tried off the belt and I was a little quicker grabbing both off the table.

[EricW]

So, practice it, EricW :D :D

Holy crap! An entire tenth?!!!

Wow! I'll make sure I devote HOURS to that next trip to the range. That'll make up for the ten+ extra seconds I spend every stage trying to find my behind with both hands. :P

[XRe]

Wow! I'll make sure I devote HOURS to that next trip to the range. That'll make up for the ten+ extra seconds I spend every stage trying to find my behind with both hands.

Man, you need a vacation... lighten up

Look, you said you'd never try an unpracticed skill in a match - which is a good idea. I'm just saying it's worth time (and significant time on close in, high HF speed shoots). Not something to spend a whole practice on or anything stupid like that - probably not more than doing 10 or so of them every great once in while, but enough to be familiar with each of the possibilities.

Unless, of course, you prefer to hunt for your butt with both hands instead of pulling the trigger....

[mcoliver]

Managed to run a few drills with this one yesterday but only had enough ammo to run mag and open gun on table, start standing. Mini popper at 18m or so, times hovered around 1.9 to 2.1sec. Then suddenly I hit a break though and was registering times in 1.65 to 1.78sec.

This is an area where, IMO, a racker in your gun really helps.

[Flyin40]

I have had this start probably at least 5 times in the last couple months. I would say we don't them in the US anymore. All were matches so I'm not sure about times. I really really wish I had a slide racker installed. I now have the gun chromed and a big rear scallop so I don't think I can do anything about it. If you look on the Open Nationals 2006 DVD theres a stage that show exactly how to do it. You get to see the guys without slide rackers vs. slide rackers. You can really see the difference

Flyin40

[G-ManBart]

Thought I'd pull up this old thread.

I've had a number of stages lately that were table/barrel starts with the gun unloaded, hammer down and a mag on the table/barrel. So, I've decided to practice them since they seem to be making a comeback.

Today I did 30 of these starts....didn't write down the results, but my average was around 1.85-1.90 to a full target at 10yds with my Limited gun. My best were a couple around 1.76 after I got the first few out of the way. Once I did a couple, I stayed consistently under 2.0 without rushing. I'm going to work on this a bit more and try the "slide" method, but figure anything under 2 isn't going to kill me.

[carinab]

Yet another resurrection of this thread....

We had one of these starts on a stage last weekend. I normally use DP40's method on an unloaded table start. I rack the slide over the top in front of the ejection port as well (limited gun) but Saturday I didn't get far enough up (I was looking at target one instead of my gun). Pinching the barrel and half the slide don't work too great by the way. I've also had the occasional RO chide me I was close to sweeping by going ahead of the port.

Has anyone tried racking from underneath? Do you sling shot instead of going over the top ahead of the port?

Underneath would seem like it's quickest to establish grip but has a hitch factor. Dry firing it, I either bump my trigger finger or I short stroke because of the recoil spring. Using sling shot just felt very slow...and I missed getting a good grip with my left hand more frequently.

Opinions?

[dirtypool40]

I think all three methods are close enough it's a comfort thing.

Watch the 2005 LIMNATS DVD. You'll see good runs using each different technique. Of note, the underneath technique was used by TGO and if I recall correcty, Phil did the sling shot, and I think TT was overhand.

Edited January 15, 2008 by dirtypool40

[Zerwas]

I use the overhand method as well.

I noticed on the 2005 Limited nationals video as DP did, TGO with his under the slide method of racking the slide.

Now, I'm no wussy (at least in my opinion... ) but I had a heck of a time trying to do this method with DUMMY rounds in the magazine. I must be running a higher weight recoil spring in my pistol or something.. . I couldn't get the slide all the way to the rear consistently (maybe my fingers or too short). I continued to fumble the load time after time after time.

I can see the practical application and I'd bet it IS fast to do it that way, but for me I just couldn't do it reliably enough to want to stay with it. I blame it on my LEO training. There we always rack overhand and for me, it is the best way to go.

[Jim Norman]

Under the gun. You have an empty gun, slide closed, hammer down. You insert a mag, your hand is already under the gun, slide it up a bit, grab eh forward serrations on the slide and rack it. Your hand then is nearly positiioned to assume a proper shooting grip.

Of course, some for this MIGHT be dependent upon where the first mag is coming from. Usually it will come from the table since if you haven't got a holstered gun, why would you have mags in pouches?

Regardless, I think I would still rack from underneath

Then again, I could be wrong.

Jim

Edited January 15, 2008 by Jim Norman