benos Posted May 25, 2001 Share Posted May 25, 2001 Which came first, the bullet or the barrel? be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 26, 2001 Share Posted May 26, 2001 The bullet right? Right? It had to be the bullet...lol Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 Right now my splits are at about .15 at the BEST usually .17-.18... i really want to lower them, PLEASE no lectures on how other things are important, i'm working on them also) do you guys have any tips on how to speed up trigger speed. what are your split times on target.. without targets? etc. Thanks for any/all input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 You can't have much tension if you are pushing for speed. Might try some different grip pressures. Try less grip with the strong hand and more with the weak hand. Then try something else. But, most important...try not to think "fast"...that often leads to tension, which will slow you down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 I discovered that my splits decreased on their own, without me doing any particular thing to work on them. Others have suggested blasting rounds into the berm and 2-yard bill-drills to work on relaxing the rest of the hand, which is key to fast finger movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Try shooting with extremely slow and deliberate finger speed, paying particular attention to where the sear engagement begins, and where the trigger resets from the disconnector. Dry-firing, you'll have to hold the trigger back as you rack the slide. You don't want to use all the trigger travel, just the part that matters, engagement and reset. (This is really obvious on a Glock.) On a 1911 trigger it's far more subtle. Tune your spring so it has a nice, positive reset, (best part about a Glock) or you'll end up freezing a lot. Expect to bounce a few rounds (doubling under recoil) as you experiment in live fire. I think I've hit the limit of my ability at .11, with a particular Limited gun. Other guns have only gone down to .12. Fourteens are no problem, even with the Glock. Seventeen to .19 is comfy. No lecture, just keep it in perspective! I watched a lot of the super squad at the Race Gun nats, and, to my ear, only Max was consistently shooting a lot of fast splits. I think even your .17-.18 would have been unusually fast in that crowd. If you're lucky, BSeevers and TDean will chime in. Those guys are split monsters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Probably the fastest shooters I have watched at the Nats are Jerry M. (with an open gun .38 super, not a revolver) and TT. I know late in his Open career with the S&W guns BE was getting some phenomanal splits (those guns had some pretty freaky triggers) One year at our Nats I hit a .09 on a stage then got upped by another shooter (last years Nat Champ) with a .07 However splits in the range you are talking about are by far the norm in the sport. Most of the time that is the range my splits are in. .14 to .15 on real close stuff and mostly .17 -.18 on everything else. I have a post somewhere called "the Twenty" its a great drill for close speed stuff. http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...m=5&topic=7 The key is to be relaxed, you can't force the speed. Try some bill drills into the backstop with your eyes closed and feel all the sensations that happen while you are shooting...pay attention to everything you feel. (Edited by Pat Harrison at 4:49 pm on Oct. 9, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 It's really hard not to start babbling and say that National and World Championships have been and are being won by shooters shooting 17 and 18 splits - especially if the Burner or The Great One was involved. But I won't go there. By all means never think of "going fast, or faster." Words and phrases like - relax, just right, don't try, no excess tension, back it off a notch, and let go may help keep you on track. Try this: set up a target at 5 yds. Now draw and fire pairs on it, five separate times, noting your splits. While shooting the pairs, really pay attention to "what the time between shots sounds like," i.e., dat....dat, or dat...dat, or dat..dat. Now try it again, this time before you shoot, replay your previous cadence in your mind - here it - dat...dat, or whatever it was. But this time before you push the timer, clearly recall your previous "split sound" and then imagine/hear it a notch faster, i.e., it was dat...dat, now hear it in your mind as dat.dat. Then just start the timer and keep only that split sound in your mind all the way through the draw until you're done shooting the pair. Keep working with it and see what you come up with. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Get a stopwatch with a big start/stop button and see how fast you can start/stop it. See what your finger speed is without a gun, great game when sitting around the clubhouse (especially if you cheat...drives everyone nuts to try and beat you) I usually hit .11-.12 (cheating .005 to .006) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 About a year ago I posted about problems with "trigger freeze". When I tried to go fast my splits were measured in seconds instead of fractions of a second because the finger just quit working. Pat and Brian got me past the trigger freeze and as a bonus I can now shoot .12 to .13 splits on the close targets, no problem. These guys really know their stuff. By the way, my splits in a match out to ten yards run about .16 to .18 and on 15-20 yard targets they are more like .20 to .22. If I shoot faster splits my follow through erodes and I don't call my shots the way I should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrguar Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 I know this is not what you are wanting to hear but I took a class with Todd J. and he demonstrated without any doubt that a few hundreths on your splits in not as important as being smooth and consistant. We had a guy who was very into steel shooting with us who was getting .14 & .15 splits Todd asked him to shoot a stage we had setup(I think it was like 4 paper targets a 3 steel ) as fast as he could....Todd then told us he would shoot the same stage shooting .18-.20 splits. Todd after running thru it 2-3 times beat him by like .5 to .7 secs. For what it is worth there are a lot of young guys out there who can shoot real real fast....but the smoother older guys....Todd...Jerry....Robby...seem to be able to hold it together at the big matches...and that is what really matters.... Right Brian.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted October 12, 2002 Author Share Posted October 12, 2002 jrguar, i know this, however a few 10ths on a Bill Drill will mean a little bit, i am working down and can easily do sub 1 sec draws with my race rig, and right at 1 sec with my production rig. my reloads are getting better also, ask todd what he CAN do. In my opinion shooting ability works like this. the greater your ability, the easier it is to run at a proper speed. what i don't think some of you are realizing is that most of the shooters out there are shooting .18 splits because thats all they can do. but all of those big name out there shoot those same splits because that is now comfortable for them they can do a lot faster, but they are a lot more sure of their hits. just because you drive a corvette every day doesn't mean you burn the tires at every stop light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 Pat, So how do you "cheat" with a stopwatch? Not that **I** would ever do it, of course.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 Ok Tom I'll chime in first. Thanks Erik. Speedy, Triple Tap, Seevers came from years of practice and shooting too fast. I used to be REAL fast if you know what I mean. My fastest splits on my timer are .13 although I am sure that's the limit of my timer, it has never indicated faster. I have seen .11 on other brands of timers in matches and know mine is limited as I shoot into the bank much faster and get same results. I would love to try to get a better time borrowing a timer, I think yellow are fastest, someday. How do you speed up? Practice and relax. My best Bill drill to date is 1.51. Felt like I was so loose and relaxed. I can think back to the feeling and can feel it in my muscles right now. Visualization alert. Felt like light going through my shoulders and out my arms? That was .86 draw and .13 splits, all A's. Maybe that timer is right Not cold but about the 3rd Bill drill in row. I do not believe in pressure or expectations put on your self. What I mean is, I have no need to beat it or duplicate it. In Fact I could "try"and take it down into 1.4X but I feel it would be a waste of valuable practice time. I am much more happy that I can pull 1.6X cold. Here is the key. I can walk up anytime and shoot a 1.6X 3 times in a row. Being able to do it on demand, cold, will translate to higher match scores. Anything else is just a step on the way or fun. Everybody has said it. Relaxation and practice. Don't worry about split times. Look at your sight and shoot as fast as you see. Now advancing in skills is good just requires planning and "experimenting" which is good. I shoot without a target sometimes, still, to see if I am experiencing everything I need to. What has helped me win is practicing accuracy with speed and calling my shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 I'm honored to be referred to as a split-monster, but I don't think my splits are all that fast. My typical hoser splits are running .14-.15 I never tried to dump rounds into the berm to see how fast I could go, but I have had a few .13's bill-drilling. (with glock, haven't timed 1911 yet). I'm not one to instruct on how to get your splits times down, cause...I never practiced it. I could just do it from the first day. Could it be a fast-twitch mucsle thing, some people have it, some don't? Could it be a psychological thing, some people are focusing too much on other things like recoil, front site, trigger slap? I do know that I slap the hell outta the trigger! I don't buy into the "know exactly where the reset is" stuff. If you are really getting into the .14's and below, are you actually paying attention to the exact moment the trigger resets? Hell no...just move that sucker back and forth as quick as you can without worrying about reset. I also have a crossman pistol BB gun. It's a S&W replica, but fires in double action. You know that burning feeling when you pull the trigger too many times, you know, that feeling in your forearm that screams STOP! Well DON"T!! Start playing guitar also. And none of that strumming stuff either! I'm talking finger pick'n man! It'll build more trigger finger individualism and dexterity. Listen to Brian. Where's Phil, Travis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted October 12, 2002 Author Share Posted October 12, 2002 "honestly i'm playing the guitar to be a better shooter" I shoot a beretta... i dryfire practice almost exclusively DAO and dude i can state that forearm fatigue used to be the norm, i'm kind of used to it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George D Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 Looks like it's time for me to be put out to pasture. I've never tried for maximum speeds or even checked splits before but did so at the range yesterday. At 7 yards the fastest splits I could acheive were high twenties with both my revolver and my new 45. All shots were in the 9 ring (approx A zone IPSC), but .14 ? Awesome!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twix Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 Hey George D, you may be kidding about the "out to pasture" stuff, but today I was so frustrated, I couldn't beleive I was running .25 splits, couldn't get any faster. Doh! new minor load and I haven't lightened the spring to accomodate the virtually zero recoil. Just because the slide cycled doesn't mean it was working well. I know I am well into the teens with my major load. I guess my point is that even a tyro's equipment can signifigantly effect performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George D Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 Hi Twix, Are you saying that slower times can result form a minor load compared to shooting a major load? I was shooting major loads. I spoke to an IPSC shooter this morning and he said that with a new gun (the 45) I can expect to improve as I get used to the gun and it "loosens up". He seemed to think that the high 20's wasn't entirely pathetic with a revolver. Any comments out there on revolver splits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 20-something splits aren't bad for any normal revolver shooter-- Jerry M is some sort of space-alien. If you're worried about splits period, you should probably go read some of the other threads, since smoney asked us not to tell him to worry about other things than splits in this one.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 Hmm, Saturday I tied my fastest split time, with a gun I didn't think was capable, my foo-foo blaster. And I did mulitple splits in different strings at that speed, not just one. One thing I noticed is that I felt most comfortable at around .22, or twice as slow as my maximum speed! It was simple to go right into .14 - .16 but it was less comfortable. On my last mag I tried a Bill Drill and it was beautiful. The gun just felt right (unusual for me with an Open gun) and stayed on target while it sprayed out a continuous line of brass. It didn't feel like it was recoiling, only like it was cycling. Only I never saw the dot, because I hadn't turned it on. But the bummer was the crappy timer didn't pick up the shots. OK, so TDean is a full-travel trigger slapper. Works for him, works for TGO. I finesse it so my finger is moving as little as possible. His way is less prone to trigger freeze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 TGO slaps? I knew it was the right thing to do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twix Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 George, I was just saying that if your gun is not tuned to the load it can limit your times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 Tom, Watch "Shooter Ready?" TGO's getting two pieces of .38 Super brass practically touching each other as they come out the ejection port, and his index finger just about bangs the front of the trigger guard between shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted October 27, 2002 Share Posted October 27, 2002 I got 4 rounds away and on target in .06second splits, 38super IPSC std gun. Shots fell less than 4" apart between first and fourth. RO suggested, correctly, that I should get the sear seen to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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