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baseline times for per class


nutzach

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Are there any baseline times for core fundamentals in competitive shooting?  For example, what should a C-class limited/open shooter be able to consistently reload? B-class, A-class, M-class, etc. What are typical baseline splits at 10 yards for a C-class, B-class etc.  I'm mostly concerned with time for Limited division.  My splits are typically .25sec, reloads 1.8sec, 2-reload-2 4.3sec, & draw 2 shots 1.7sec.  

 

I can always draw and reload faster in dry fire than live fire. I would say my times for these events are average during live fire.  I have done them faster, however not consistent.  Looking for consistent times, not peak times. Preferably from live matches and not practice.  

 

Splits (10 yards) - 

GM - ?

M - ?

A - ?

B - ?

C - ?

 

Reload

GM - ?

M - ?

A - ?

B - ?

C - ?

 

2 - reload - 2 (10 yards) 

GM - ?

M - ?

A - ?

B - ?

C - ?

 

draw & 2 shots (10 yards)

GM - ?

M - ?

A - ?

B - ?

C - ?

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Ben Stoeger has times for GM in his skills and drills book. 

 

Those are the goal times so what the C class times are aren't really important. 

 

I'd say think 1.0 sec draw/reload and .20 split/trans. 

 

You should be able to figure everything else out since it's just combining these. 

Edited by B_RAD
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Ben Stoeger has times for GM in his skills and drills book. 
 
Those are the goal times so what the C class times are aren't really important. 


Yup. By his book. Best money, aside from training you can spend.


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I have a drill book by Steve Anderson that only focuses on GM times as well.  I'm more curious about the progress tracking in core fundamentals as a shooter advances in class.  

 

38 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Ben Stoeger has times for GM in his skills and drills book. 

 

Those are the goal times so what the C class times are aren't really important. 

 

I'd say think 1.0 sec draw/reload and .20 split/trans. 

 

You should be able to figure everything else out since it's just combining these. 

 

You think a 1.0sec draw/reload and .20 split/trans are C-class?

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18 minutes ago, nutzach said:

I have a drill book by Steve Anderson that only focuses on GM times as well.  I'm more curious about the progress tracking in core fundamentals as a shooter advances in class.  

 

You think a 1.0sec draw/reload and .20 split/trans are C-class?

I think the point is that the progress levels that you are talking about are irrelevant. I would even go so far as to say the GM times are fairly irrelevant. Keep track of what you can do personally, and always push to improve on that. The goal times give you a target to aim for while moving through that personal journey, but even those at some point you will surpass and then you will just have to do what I am describing anyway.

 

I think some realistic good goals would be (for a 10 yd A hit, open metric):

  1. draw in 1.0
  2. reload in <1.3 
  3. turn and draw in the <1.5 range,
  4. transitions <.3 
  5. split <.25

Everything else is just some combination of those things. Record where you are at now, start keeping track of your progress, and then push to get faster and more accurate. 

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Appreciate all the responses.  Naturally, getting faster at any of these fundamentals is the goal.  I think the times Gooldylocks posted are good.  1sec draw and A hit is a tough one!  

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1 hour ago, nutzach said:

I have a drill book by Steve Anderson that only focuses on GM times as well.  I'm more curious about the progress tracking in core fundamentals as a shooter advances in class.  

 

 

You think a 1.0sec draw/reload and .20 split/trans are C-class?

Sorry. I'm meant those are GM times. Or at least barely GM times. 

 

I know you want to know what each class time may be. I was just saying since GM is the goal, just keep track of where you are each time until you get to better than the GM times. 

 

 

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Things like surrender draws and turn and draws should really only add about .1 sec. That's the goal at least. Reloads are supposed to be about as fast as your draw.  Transitions and splits should .2 for 7-10 yd open targets. Again, that's the goal. 

 

For my own way of thinking, I wouldn't even worry what B class times.  I want to do GM times. So, until I get those down, I wouldn't stop trying to get there. Then, when I do get there, I start trying to get the next skill down to GM time while maintaining the skills I've already got.  

 

 

I personally think Gooldylocks times are a bit slow. Not saying I can rock them faster everytime on demand. I'm just saying they're slow for my goal times. Though, a 1.3 relaod 100% is better than a 1.0 one 50%. So, keep practicing until you get them fast and reliable. 

 

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, B_RAD said:

I personally think Gooldylocks times are a bit slow. Not saying I can rock them faster everytime on demand. I'm just saying they're slow for my goal times. Though, a 1.3 relaod 100% is better than a 1.0 one 50%. So, keep practicing until you get them fast and reliable. 

Do the math on those times, and it may surprise you what class those times would get you up to. Especially since those are supposed to be "honest" times, which I would venture to guess most people don't report. I am guessing there are a whole lot fewer people out there that have an honest 1.0 reload than people that say they do. I would bet there are a lot more people that can do a 1.0 draw to A but wouldn't get 1.0 on a reload short of going absolutely crazy and just throwing hopers. Just like people that can draw in 0.7 or something. Can they physically do it/have done it? Sure. Can they do that on demand in a match? For most of them, no they can't. People lie to themselves about what they are actually capable of, 100% of the time, on demand. 

 

And, further, those are just some random numbers I pulled out of my head. Like I said in my post, I think all of the baseline times are kinda irrelevant. See how fast and accurate you are now, then go faster and be more accurate than you were before. Keep track of it. 

 

As an example of the math:

  • CM13-06 Too Close For Comfort. 1.0+0.3+0.3+0.3+0.3+1.3+0.3+0.3+0.3+0.3=4.7 seconds. 50points/4.7=10.64HF. That is easily 100% in all but Open division.
  • CM13-01 Disaster Factor (with slower reload, transitions, and splits for the second half on the hard targets). 1.5+0.25+0.3+0.25+.0.3+0.25+1.5+0.3+0.35+0.3+0.35+0.3=5.95 seconds. 60/5.95=10.08HF. That is essentially 100% in Prod, Lim, L10, SS, 94% run in CO.. Again, Open is the only exception.
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25 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said:

Do the math on those times, and it may surprise you what class those times would get you up to. Especially since those are supposed to be "honest" times, which I would venture to guess most people don't report. I am guessing there are a whole lot fewer people out there that have an honest 1.0 reload than people that say they do. I would bet there are a lot more people that can do a 1.0 draw to A but wouldn't get 1.0 on a reload short of going absolutely crazy and just throwing hopers. Just like people that can draw in 0.7 or something. Can they physically do it/have done it? Sure. Can they do that on demand in a match? For most of them, no they can't. People lie to themselves about what they are actually capable of, 100% of the time, on demand. 

 

And, further, those are just some random numbers I pulled out of my head. Like I said in my post, I think all of the baseline times are kinda irrelevant. See how fast and accurate you are now, then go faster and be more accurate than you were before. Keep track of it. 

 

As an example of the math:

  • CM13-06 Too Close For Comfort. 1.0+0.3+0.3+0.3+0.3+1.3+0.3+0.3+0.3+0.3=4.7 seconds. 50points/4.7=10.64HF. That is easily 100% in all but Open division.
  • CM13-01 Disaster Factor (with slower reload, transitions, and splits for the second half on the hard targets). 1.5+0.25+0.3+0.25+.0.3+0.25+1.5+0.3+0.35+0.3+0.35+0.3=5.95 seconds. 60/5.95=10.08HF. That is essentially 100% in Prod, Lim, L10, SS, 94% run in CO.. Again, Open is the only exception.

My club is shooting 13-01 this weekend. Not sure if I'm going to make it. If I do, I'll post my times. 

 

I just looked at this one. It looks like one of the more difficult ones due to the no shoots blocking most of the top row.  Just looking at it, I'd say aiming for just under the B zone line, on the top targets, is the safest?  Though, you're almost gauranteeing no A's.  So maybe going for the A head box?

 

My guestimate times would be a little faster.

1.2 draw, .20 , .25, .2, .25, .2

1.35 reload, .35 ,. 35, .35, .35, .35

For a total of 5.4 sec. 

 

I'd start on the bottom. I'd expect to drop more points on the top row. 

 

53 pts / 5.4 sec = 9.8148 HF.   That's over 95%.  

 

The discipline for propoer sight pic on the top row is where I'd think this one is make or break it. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by B_RAD
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14 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

My club is shooting 13-01 this weekend. Not sure if I'm going to make it. If I do, I'll post my times. 

 

I just looked at this one. It looks like one of the more difficult ones due to the no shoots blocking most of the top row.  Just looking at it, I'd say aiming for just under the B zone line, on the top targets, is the safest?  Though, you're almost gauranteeing no A's.  So maybe going for the A head box?

 

My guestimate times would be a little faster.

1.2 draw, .20 , .25, .2, .25, .2

1.35 reload, .35 ,. 35, .35, .35, .35

For a total of 5.4 sec. 

 

I'd start on the bottom. I'd expect to drop more points on the top row. 

 

53 pts / 5.4 sec = 9.8148 HF.   That's over 95%.  

 

The discipline for proper sight pic on the top row is where I'd think this one is make or break it. 

You absolutely could shoot that one faster, yes. Personally I would expect my splits and transitions (with my open gun) to be about 0.16s and 0.2s for the lower targets and .25-.3 for the top targets. My point was to illustrate that a lot of the times people quote aren't honest, and you don't actually need to have a 0.7 draw and a 0.9 reload or you are a total scrub and won't be successful.

 

I personally like speeding up through the string, so I would probably shoot the upper targets aiming at the A/C line (basically center of brown), which would probably net me a couple As at least. Then reload to the bottom targets and shred. Probably down 4-6 total. 

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I ran a CM-01 a few weeks ago and can’t seem to get my split/transition times from the video I have.  I did import Can You Count into ClipShot and uploaded it.  Has anyone used this app?  I’m surprised that most folks didn’t know there was such an app.  If you don’t, then you do now.  It’s really neat for keeping track of all those core skill times.  I’ve practiced faster draws at this distance and reloads, but I would venture to say this is about as fast as I can produce on demand everytime.  

 

Thanks again for all the responses.  I apologize for the length of time it took me to prepare for the second string.  

 

 

Edited by nutzach
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1 hour ago, nutzach said:

I ran a CM-01 a few weeks ago and can’t seem to get my split/transition times from the video I have.  I did import Can You Count into ClipShot and uploaded it.  Has anyone used this app?  I’m surprised that most folks didn’t know there was such an app.  If you don’t, then you do now.  It’s really neat for keeping track of all those core skill times.  I’ve practiced faster draws at this distance and reloads, but I would venture to say this is about as fast as I can produce on demand everytime.  

 

Thanks again for all the responses.  I apologize for the length of time it took me to prepare for the second string.  

 

 

I've used shot coach before but wasn't impressed. It didn't seem accurate.  I'd say the one you're using may not be accurate either. On that first string the app shows 4.38 but it sounds like someone in the background says 4.54. If your time on the first string was 4.54 and the timer shows 4.38, that app is worthless.  

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1 hour ago, Gooldylocks said:

You absolutely could shoot that one faster, yes. Personally I would expect my splits and transitions (with my open gun) to be about 0.16s and 0.2s for the lower targets and .25-.3 for the top targets. My point was to illustrate that a lot of the times people quote aren't honest, and you don't actually need to have a 0.7 draw and a 0.9 reload or you are a total scrub and won't be successful.

 

I personally like speeding up through the string, so I would probably shoot the upper targets aiming at the A/C line (basically center of brown), which would probably net me a couple As at least. Then reload to the bottom targets and shred. Probably down 4-6 total. 

We actually are in agreement. Rockstar draws and reloads aren't the most important thing. 

 

Get fast and accurate. Then get faster and more accurate. Then, stay consistent. 

 

I thought about doing the top row first on the classifier but thought turning to the top targets is more difficult than tuning to the wide open target. Yeah, you got to go to the top row after the reload but I felt a 180 to them is more dangerous.

 

 

Edited by B_RAD
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The actual string time was 4.54/4.23.  Is there a better application or program out there to review video?  Certainly, nothing can replace a shot timer, but I never get to see what my actual draw, reload, and split times are.  I know what they are in live and dry fire practice.  

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35 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

We actually are in agreement. Rockstar draws and reloads aren't the most important thing. 

 

Get fast and accurate. Then get faster and more accurate. Then, stay consistent. 

 

I thought about doing the top row first on the classifier but thought turning to the top targets is more difficult than tuning to the wide open target. Yeah, you got to go to the top row after the reload but I felt a 180 to them is more dangerous.

 

 

I like to engage the "easy" alphas first so I can get the jitters, shakes, and quickly condition myself to the sights and recoil control. If there is no time penalty the "easy" alphas are my go to first.  

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6 minutes ago, nutzach said:

The actual string time was 4.54/4.23.  Is there a better application or program out there to review video?  Certainly, nothing can replace a shot timer, but I never get to see what my actual draw, reload, and split times are.  I know what they are in live and dry fire practice.  

I'm not aware of anything that is going to be exact.  Too bad. 

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I thought about doing the top row first on the classifier but thought turning to the top targets is more difficult than tuning to the wide open target. Yeah, you got to go to the top row after the reload but I felt a 180 to them is more dangerous.


Well, after we had been talking about all this classifier I decided to set it up for our club match today. Shot a 11.22HF, 99.7%. Drew to the top targets, then sped up through the string. I would have shot like a 106% but had the gnarliest trigger freeze of my life on the very last shot haha. 4.99, -4.

I reshot it with my production gun afterwards and drew to the bottom, shot a 5.49. So I don't think it really makes a difference. Pretty sure half a second is just the difference between irons and a dot.
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1 hour ago, Gooldylocks said:


 

 


Well, after we had been talking about all this classifier I decided to set it up for our club match today. Shot a 11.22HF, 99.7%. Drew to the top targets, then sped up through the string. I would have shot like a 106% but had the gnarliest trigger freeze of my life on the very last shot haha. 4.99, -4.

I reshot it with my production gun afterwards and drew to the bottom, shot a 5.49. So I don't think it really makes a difference. Pretty sure half a second is just the difference between irons and a dot.

 

Smoking run. How many points did you drop with production gun? 

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26 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said:
31 minutes ago, HoMiE said:
Smoking run. How many points did you drop with production gun? 

I think like 6 Bs and Cs. Plus a Mike on the middle upper target... by like an inch. Ugh. 2 C on the bottom then 3B 1C on the top..

The struggle is real. Today I shot it with 1 A, started up top then reload to bottom array. 22 points down, minor hurts. 

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