"Graduating" to an open gun?

[BenAlpha]

Hey there! I'm new to IPSC and shooting in general, carry a Glock 19 and shooting standard with my CZ SP-01 SA.

I've been told I need to start with an iron sights gun to learn the basics and fundatmentals before I can move to

Open Division where everything is faster.

The thing is, I'm not enjoying myself so much. Having real bad case of cross-eye-dominance I find my self really

struggling with the irons, 20-30 min into shooting the sights get fuzzy, I get a headache and it all goes bad from there.

I don't want this to turn into a cross eye dominant thread, so here are my questions to all you open shooters:

1) How long did you shoot irons before "graduating" to an open gun?

2) Do you believe it's important to shoot iron sights before moving to a red dot?
3) Are red dots on open guns (mounted to the frame) easier for someone with cross dominant eyes to shoot?
4) How much softer shooting are these? I'm also a small guy with small hands and struggling with a tennis

elbow that flares up from gripping a gun HARD for long periods of time (I'm right handed and the TE is in my left elbow)
-I just installed a Nitro Fin on my SP-01 and it helped ALOT with the elbow.

Thanks in advance! -Ben

 

[36873687]

Open is we’re the fun is at. U said u are new to sport so Do you have reloading machine yet. Shoot open major me personally want to load my own.u could just get a dove tail mount take out rear sight on your cz an put red dot on. Play in carry optics. Just to see if u like the dot, some don’t. That’s what I did before getting 4 to 5 k open gun.

[OPENB]

I was thinking the same. Try CO, you're most of the way there. Add a dot on the slide, some extended base pads if you want, take off the thumb rest. But, I think that is a SAO trigger I see. You'll have to make it DA/SA for CO. 

For your question, each division is wholly separate. Some skills cross over, but you won't necessarily graduate from one to another. Open isn't softer, it's different. The recoil is redirected by action of the comp, springs, etc.. There was a shooter locally that had elbow pain that could not tolerate an open gun. She shot a 40 limited instead. Try one before you invest. 

Or, add the dot to your CZ as is, & shoot open minor. 

Edited March 23, 2018 by OPENB

[Rnlinebacker]

go to Cajungunworks.com by the cz75 red dot mounting plate and put a dot on it. get into carry optics and enjoy some of the fun you could have in open but definitely not all of it lol

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[BenAlpha]

I forgot to mention, I'm located in Israel. Reloading ammo is prohibited here and does not exist.

We only shoot factory ammo, so open shooters here shoot 9 minor, non shoot major.

Also, Carry Optics division does not exist here at the moment and I'm not a DA/SA fan, at all.

Keep the opinions coming! thanks.

[jcc7x7]

Get an open gun and go for it

Or

A barrel and comp for your gun with optic of choice

Bam =open

Edited March 23, 2018 by jcc7x7

[RJH]

If you think you want an open gun, get one.  It seems there are people who like shooting  open and those who don't, how long you have been shooting doesn't really matter.  If you think you are going to end up shooting open, might as well spend your time and money to that end.  Open in 9 minor in my experience has basically no recoil, but if you can, borrow someone's gun and shoot a stage or 2 and see what you think. I have no idea on the cross dominance stuff.

[zzt]

Put a CZC dovetail mount on your gun and shoot Open.  There is no rule that says you have to have a comp to be in Open.  I have several friends who shoot Open USPSA, simply because they wanted to continue to use their CZ 75 TS.  Recoil from 9mm Minor in a heavy steel gun is minimal anyway, so a comp would have only a small effect.

[Bwilmot]

Get a um tactical set up and try it out.   If you like it then dive in !!!!!Shooting minor u don’t need a comp.  they also offer a holster for this setup that will fit any gun with a rail.   

 

https://shop.opticsplanet.com/um-tactical-um3-sight-mount-for-universal-rail-mount-style-black-finish.html?_iv_code=UMT-MT-UM3&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=plusbox-beta&gclid=Cj0KCQjwy9LVBRDOARIsAGqoVntjf9YGt4AvBDTC1PGVjwlvf5UZH6MPjBJ9BcIBxMlF759nYFYWNs0aAs1hEALw_wcB

[dvc4you]

Do, it. I was in the same boat for years. I wish I had made the switch sooner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[davsco]

it's fun, just do it.  no 'graduating' from a 'lower' division necessary.  at your next match, ask an open shooter or two or three if you can shoot their guns.  run a stage with them and see how it feels/works for you.  reimburse them for ammo.  discontinued now but look for sti steel master, works great with plain ol' winchester white box 9mm minor.

[xdnok]

This sport is for fun, go do what you enjoy. I shoot open USPSA and recently put a red dot dovetail mount on my SP01 and am really having fun with it. 

[abigger04]

I didn't graduate to open as much as I kicked down the wall like kool-aid man. 

 

Like you I am cross eye dominant and started in production.  I started uspsa in June last season and had a great time with it.  I bought a shadow 2, learned the fundamentals, met local people, and traveled to local ranges.  My shooting improved so much last year and I had a great time, but it left me wanting a little more out of the sport for this season.  So I ended up buying a used 2011 open gun in December.  I paid it off and I spent the winter off season learning to dry fire it and reloading 9 major ammo.  We had our first match last weekend and it was a classifier match.   Dry fire over the off season paid off and it looks like I'm starting in B class.  I'm having a great time with it so far.  I still love production but this is more exciting to me because it is faster paced.  

 

So to answer some your questions:

 

1. I started USPSA in June and shot irons for the '17 season.

2.  I don't know that it is important to shoot irons first, but it is important to know the fundamental of competition shooting first.  If you have the fundamentals down, then probably not necessary to focus on irons so much first.  The transition from irons to dot took me about two weeks of moderate dry fire practice.  I'm still working on this but I have improved quite a bit since the beginning.

3. After my own experience I absolutely believe it is easier for a cross dominant shooter.  My experience may be unique but I'd encourage you to try it. 

I found that despite being cross dominant, with a red dot I don't have any focusing issues.  In fact, I do not shoot a dot gun as cross-dominant.  I am right handed and I can index with my right eye while using my open gun.  This is not what I expected, but this is what my mind feels comfortable with.  What I have also found is that I can also shoot a dot gun as cross dominant, too.  This has come in handy for weak handed shooting.  I don't know yet if it is a competitive advantage, but it can't hurt.

4. I don't find the recoil to be that bad honestly.  38 super is fairly soft shooting, but 9 major doesn't feel a whole lot different to me.  It feels a lot easier to shoot than a 40 cal, that's for sure - to me at least. 

 

I think you'd enjoy it.  I'd find someone that will let you borrow their gun and shoot a few rounds through it.

 

 

 

[theWacoKid]

3 hours ago, BenAlpha said:

I don't want this to turn into a cross eye dominant thread, so here are my questions to all you open shooters:

1) How long did you shoot irons before "graduating" to an open gun?

2) Do you believe it's important to shoot iron sights before moving to a red dot?
3) Are red dots on open guns (mounted to the frame) easier for someone with cross dominant eyes to shoot?
4) How much softer shooting are these? I'm also a small guy with small hands and struggling with a tennis

elbow that flares up from gripping a gun HARD for long periods of time (I'm right handed and the TE is in my left elbow)
-I just installed a Nitro Fin on my SP-01 and it helped ALOT with the elbow.

Thanks in advance! -Ben

 

 

 

1) 0 years, 0 days, 0 minutes, 0 seconds

2) No, that makes no sense

3) Yes and no.  You've got to 'learn' either way, the initial struggle goes away faster with the dot but that doesn't mean it's mastered, that still takes work.

4) Good open guns at major pf are actually pretty violent, soft is relative.  No matter what you shoot you should be gripping the gun hard for extended periods of time.  

 

G'luck. https://www.absolutept.com/shooters-elbow/

[Sprig]

1) How long did you shoot irons before "graduating" to an open gun? 1 YEAR

 

2) Do you believe it's important to shoot iron sights before moving to a red dot? No

3) Are red dots on open guns (mounted to the frame) easier for someone with cross dominant eyes to shoot? Depends on the person, you can get use to anything with practice

 
4) How much softer shooting are these? I'm also a small guy with small hands and struggling with a tennis  Lots of factors here, gun, grip, ammo etc etc etc 

 

 

elbow that flares up from gripping a gun HARD for long periods of time (I'm right handed and the TE is in my left elbow)
-I just installed a Nitro Fin on my SP-01 and it helped ALOT with the elbow. Link above is awesome 

[dvc4you]

I found that despite being cross dominant, with a red dot I don't have any focusing issues.  In fact, I do not shoot a dot gun as cross-dominant.  I am right handed and I can index with my right eye while using my open gun.  This is not what I expected, but this is what my mind feels comfortable with.  What I have also found is that I can also shoot a dot gun as cross dominant, too.  This has come in handy for weak handed shooting.  I don't know yet if it is a competitive advantage, but it can't hurt.”

 
 I works that way for me too.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[tattooo]

I forgot to mention, I'm located in Israel. Reloading ammo is prohibited here and does not exist.
We only shoot factory ammo, so open shooters here shoot 9 minor, non shoot major.

Also, Carry Optics division does not exist here at the moment and I'm not a DA/SA fan, at all.

Keep the opinions coming! thanks.

Why not shoot factory .40 major instead of 9 minor ?

[edwin garcia]

3 hours ago, BenAlpha said:

1) How long did you shoot irons before "graduating" to an open gun?

2) Do you believe it's important to shoot iron sights before moving to a red dot?
3) Are red dots on open guns (mounted to the frame) easier for someone with cross dominant eyes to shoot?
4) How much softer shooting are these? I'm also a small guy with small hands and struggling with a tennis

elbow that flares up from gripping a gun HARD for long periods of time (I'm right handed and the TE is in my left elbow)
-I just installed a Nitro Fin on my SP-01 and it helped ALOT with the elbow.

 

Before I start, I advice you to see an optometrist with some experience with shooting sports. Reason being is some of the top shooters in these sports are X-eye dominant and they dominate the sport in one form or the other by adapting to their 'situation'. Anything that can be corrected vision-wise can help with your visual longevity and contribute to your performance.

 

1) I started irons (Limited/Standard div.) for close to 2 years before building and shooting an open gun.

2) There are benefits to irons, particularly in visual patience (sight picture) and follow through.  I find it easier to align dot -> target vs. front/rear sight -> target. Of course, fundamentals of shooting like stance,grip, trigger control, etc., are as important as well and can affect visual input.

3) Mine has been frame-mounted. Most if not all open guns I've seen and used have this for reliability. Slide mounted optics take harder beating and can have issues along the way, especially with major PF.

4) Open guns are loaded with higher pressure, hence tend to be have perceived recoil than non-comped guns. For major PF, you are looking at 1300-1400ish fps. If you are using minor PF, it may not end as harsh. There are ways to mitigate perceived recoil, i.e., compensator selection, ammo selection, spring tweaks, etc. A good shooting fundamentals can also help(stance,grip,etc.). I'm small to so I have to find and tweak my grip setup.

 

Open is fun and have shot it for most of my USPSA/IPSC experience. Don't be afraid to try as most of us here that have gone to the dark side and loved it.

 

Best of luck!

[JRM83]

5 hours ago, BenAlpha said:

1) How long did you shoot irons before "graduating" to an open gun?

Two years.

 

Quote

2) Do you believe it's important to shoot iron sights before moving to a red dot?

 

No, I think it's actually better to shoot a red dot first. The red dot in dry fire (and live) will tell you if you're jerking the gun while you press the trigger, flinching, etc. It makes learning how YOU influence the gun far easier than with irons. If you can master the red dot you have the skills to master irons. 

 

Quote

3) Are red dots on open guns (mounted to the frame) easier for someone with cross dominant eyes to shoot?

 

No idea. I shoot both eyes open all the time so I don't know why cross-dominance would matter.

 

4) How much softer shooting are these? I'm also a small guy with small hands and struggling with a tennis

elbow that flares up from gripping a gun HARD for long periods of time (I'm right handed and the TE is in my left elbow)
 

They are NOT softer. Flatter, yes. 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by JRM83

[BenAlpha]

Thank you guys for all your great comments.

I'm rying to find and open shooter that will let me try his gun and hopefully

find the red dot to be easier on my eyes.. because this won't be easy on the wallet.

[BenAlpha]

On 23.3.2018 at 6:10 PM, tattooo said:

On 23.3.2018 at 3:30 PM, BenAlpha said:

I forgot to mention, I'm located in Israel. Reloading ammo is prohibited here and does not exist.
We only shoot factory ammo, so open shooters here shoot 9 minor, non shoot major.

Why not shoot factory .40 major instead of 9 minor ?

Just the way things evolved down here I guess.
We don't use .40 for carry in Israel so the ammo is expensive, might be that.
 

[tattooo]

Just the way things evolved down here I guess.
We don't use .40 for carry in Israel so the ammo is expensive, might be that.
 

Oh o.k....gotcha

[SWprotected]

If everyone is shooting minor then you are not at a disadvantage. If you are going to shoot open minor like someone posted above a steel master would be a good choice. For minor a short light gun would be my choice. I shot iron sights for 3 years before switching to open.

[Janskis]

On 3/23/2018 at 1:23 PM, BenAlpha said:

1) How long did you shoot irons before "graduating" to an open gun?

2) Do you believe it's important to shoot iron sights before moving to a red dot?
3) Are red dots on open guns (mounted to the frame) easier for someone with cross dominant eyes to shoot?
4) How much softer shooting are these? I'm also a small guy with small hands and struggling with a tennis

elbow that flares up from gripping a gun HARD for long periods of time (I'm right handed and the TE is in my left elbow

1. Well basically I shot an iron sights pistol for the first time when I was like 6 years or so, but my first pistol was an open div pistol and I started competition shooting straight in open division.

2. No, absolutely not. Better to start with an "easy" pistol to allow you to focus on the game itself as you don't have to think about the gun and can 100% focus on the stage and yourself.

3. Can't really say about this. I have equal dominance in my eyes so iron's are almost impossible for me. Some claim they can't see the dot with their other eye when trying my pistol, but I think it's just because it isn't aligned. The dot should project into the eye just fine, no matter the eye.

4. Man, you have no idea With correct springs they are super soft especially with factory ammo. Gassy handloads are FLATTER, not softer!

[HCH]

Get a dot and get after it!