New USPSA Division Proposal

[JeremiahD]

14 hours ago, ltrain7281 said:

 

Here is a common scenario I see very often on the local level as an MD. New guy shows up to a match with his new Glock 19 or similar gun. He or she has never shot a match before and is asking what division should that they should shoot. I try to ask the normal questions like are you a pretty decent shot with a pistol have you ever shot while being timed etc. etc. You know, just trying to get a feel of how new they really are. At our match it is not uncommon for us to have several 32 round all steel stages. So I will typically tell the new shooter to load their mags full and shoot Limited minor. We start the match and they get to their squad and they see all these really sweet 2011's, and Tangfolio's and all the other cool toys that us shooters have. The next question I typically get asked is "Am I competing against that 2011?" Then I have to tell them that yes you are shooting against that sweet 2011. Then once they find out the price of that 2011 they have sticker shock that in order for them to be competitive in this division they are going to have to spend X amount of dollars

 

 

Note the bolded comments.  I figured out the issue.

 

If you don't want a factory G19 to compete against a 2011, stop sending new shooters with Production pistols to Limited division.  Problem solved.

 

If you want to help eliminate mag changes and simplify for a new shooter, fine send him to Limited... BUT when he asks " Am I competing against that 2011?" You say "NO, you are competing against the clock and against yourself"

 

A quick side note, I remember Bob Vogel seemed to be very competitive with a factory Glock.  I've also seen a number of people with full custom limited (and open..) guns that have less skill then I do (and thats saying something.).  Start grooming your shooters to improve and have fun.  they will get interested in new gear later

 

[GunBugBit]

On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 7:42 PM, Sarge said:

Then again, I wouldn't want to shoot a single stack or revolver either. I get that those guns have a small following who love hard work and lots of reloads...

And don't forget that smug feeling we get deep down inside when we beat guys shooting guns with optics, porting, compensators, mags that hold three times as many rounds, slide rackers, gas pedals, automatic transmissions, cold fusion generators, etc.

[waktasz]

1 hour ago, JeremiahD said:

 

 

Note the bolded comments.  I figured out the issue.

 

If you don't want a factory G19 to compete against a 2011, stop sending new shooters with Production pistols to Limited division.  Problem solved.

 

If you want to help eliminate mag changes and simplify for a new shooter, fine send him to Limited... BUT when he asks " Am I competing against that 2011?" You say "NO, you are competing against the clock and against yourself"

 

A quick side note, I remember Bob Vogel seemed to be very competitive with a factory Glock.  I've also seen a number of people with full custom limited (and open..) guns that have less skill then I do (and thats saying something.).  Start grooming your shooters to improve and have fun.  they will get interested in new gear later

 

 

I'm on board with what you are saying, but the new guy with the g19 showing up to his first match almost never has enough mag pouches (or mags for that matter) to shoot Production. 

[ltrain7281]

5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

 

i don't care if they are equal. if you want to shoot a gun that is not competitive, suck it up. if you want to be competitive, shoot a competitive gun, don't water down the competition to include the gun you feel like shooting.

moto- Let me ask you a very simple and straight forward question. What division and gun to typically shoot in matches? And why do you prefer this gun over other guns?   

[ltrain7281]

7 hours ago, waktasz said:

There is a local club that has their annual Revolver friendly match in November of every year. 

 

It's still a full USPSA match, but they dumb the stages down for the revolvers. 

 

Do you know what happens that month?  I don't go.

 

If you want to shoot your G26 or G19, do it, and leave the rest of us alone. 

waktasz, we have revolver friendly match in January every year as well. But we do not dumb down anything, the stages are every bit as tough and complex as normal 8 round neutral but we use a 6 round neutral design. Our stages will still be 28 to 32 round field courses but we make it to where there are more shooting positions or we make it to where there are more options to running to slide lock if you are in division like SS or Production. The old school revolvers (6 shot) they have to go to every position shoot their 6 shots and move. Everyone else is trying to figure out if it is better to just do extra reloads or take the chance and try to get two positions out of one mag. Basically, you get a lot of options for the normal divisions.

 

I'm not sure  what all you have read in this thread but I am not trying to create a different match. What some of my shooters have asked me is why the compact guns have to compete against full on Limited and Production guns. What I am proposing is a division that pits the compacts against compacts and gets them out of Production and Limited divisions. They will use the same equipment (Belts, holsters, mag pouches, etc.) that Production or SS uses and shoot the same field courses as everyone else in the match. I think we should limited their mag capacity to 10+1 just like production. Except now they are competing against guns that are the same size and weight and not against a Shadow 2 or Limited 2011. I am not trying to change any of the divisions, I am just trying to get a division where like sized guns have a place to compete right along side all the guns and divisions we have.  

[ltrain7281]

55 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

I'm on board with what you are saying, but the new guy with the g19 showing up to his first match almost never has enough mag pouches (or mags for that matter) to shoot Production. 

Very true, Last club match I traveled to the MD of the match asked me if I would look after this new shooter. Being the MD of our club I have no problem with that as I typically put all of our new shooters on my squad or with an experienced CRO. This young guy showed with his Glock 19, 5 or 6 mags and only two mag pouches. He had actually read the rules for IDPA before he came, I am not sure if he thought he was going to an IDPA match or a USPSA match but he was really shocked when we all started doing our walk through's and air gunning . He started off shooting Production with only 10 rounds in his mags. We quickly changed him over to Limited minor and told him to fill up his mags as he ran out of ammo on the first stage. Now here's the cool part, this young fellow was deaf and could barely talk. We had to communicate by him lip reading. When we started him on each stage we would have to touch him on the shoulder with the timer so that he would know to start.

 

I know this story is off topic but I thought I would share simply because I think it's really cool that this young guy showed by himself with his disabilities to a very intimidating sport.   

[waktasz]

51 minutes ago, ltrain7281 said:

waktasz, we have revolver friendly match in January every year as well. But we do not dumb down anything, the stages are every bit as tough and complex as normal 8 round neutral but we use a 6 round neutral design. Our stages will still be 28 to 32 round field courses but we make it to where there are more shooting positions or we make it to where there are more options to running to slide lock if you are in division like SS or Production. The old school revolvers (6 shot) they have to go to every position shoot their 6 shots and move. Everyone else is trying to figure out if it is better to just do extra reloads or take the chance and try to get two positions out of one mag. Basically, you get a lot of options for the normal divisions.

 

I'm not sure  what all you have read in this thread but I am not trying to create a different match. What some of my shooters have asked me is why the compact guns have to compete against full on Limited and Production guns. What I am proposing is a division that pits the compacts against compacts and gets them out of Production and Limited divisions. They will use the same equipment (Belts, holsters, mag pouches, etc.) that Production or SS uses and shoot the same field courses as everyone else in the match. I think we should limited their mag capacity to 10+1 just like production. Except now they are competing against guns that are the same size and weight and not against a Shadow 2 or Limited 2011. I am not trying to change any of the divisions, I am just trying to get a division where like sized guns have a place to compete right along side all the guns and divisions we have.  

There are already too many divisions. 

[RJH]

OPEN, LIMITED, PCC, done

[GrumpyOne]

7 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

 

i don't care if they are equal. if you want to shoot a gun that is not competitive, suck it up. if you want to be competitive, shoot a competitive gun, don't water down the competition to include the gun you feel like shooting.

These are true words.

[ltrain7281]

3 hours ago, JeremiahD said:

 

 

Note the bolded comments.  I figured out the issue.

 

If you don't want a factory G19 to compete against a 2011, stop sending new shooters with Production pistols to Limited division.  Problem solved.

 

If you want to help eliminate mag changes and simplify for a new shooter, fine send him to Limited... BUT when he asks " Am I competing against that 2011?" You say "NO, you are competing against the clock and against yourself"

 

A quick side note, I remember Bob Vogel seemed to be very competitive with a factory Glock.  I've also seen a number of people with full custom limited (and open..) guns that have less skill then I do (and thats saying something.).  Start grooming your shooters to improve and have fun.  they will get interested in new gear later

 

The Glock 19 is not a competitive Production pistol against a heavier Shadow or Tangfo. 

 

YES, if you are shooting limited with a Glock 19 you are shooting against the custom 2011. Plain and simple. Don't believe that... Go to a match and shoot your compact gun in Limited. When the match is over go to Practiscore and look at the "Old Style Results" Your name will be in listed in Limited division. I actually get what you said about competing against yourself and the clock but in 6 years I have seen very few people that will actually look at it that way. For whatever reason I tell them the same thing and it goes in one ear and out the other.

 

As far as Bob Vogel, he could beat 99% of all shooters in a match with a bean flip and Crown Royal bag full of rocks...

 

People shoot what they want to shoot plain and simple. But the shooters that have asked me why they don't have a division for compacts have a valid question. I think about it this way, compact guns are made primarily for everyday carry and personnel protection. Your competition guns like Walther Q5 Match, Glock 34, Shadow 2, Tangfo Stock 2's etc. are made for competition. They have a mechanical/weight/sight radius advantage over the smaller lighter compact guns. 

 

Give the compacts their own division and list of rules and mag restrictions (example 10+1 like production) and let them play.  

[B_RAD]

51 minutes ago, ltrain7281 said:

Very true, Last club match I traveled to the MD of the match asked me if I would look after this new shooter. Being the MD of our club I have no problem with that as I typically put all of our new shooters on my squad or with an experienced CRO. This young guy showed with his Glock 19, 5 or 6 mags and only two mag pouches. He had actually read the rules for IDPA before he came, I am not sure if he thought he was going to an IDPA match or a USPSA match but he was really shocked when we all started doing our walk through's and air gunning . He started off shooting Production with only 10 rounds in his mags. We quickly changed him over to Limited minor and told him to fill up his mags as he ran out of ammo on the first stage. Now here's the cool part, this young fellow was deaf and could barely talk. We had to communicate by him lip reading. When we started him on each stage we would have to touch him on the shoulder with the timer so that he would know to start.

 

I know this story is off topic but I thought I would share simply because I think it's really cool that this young guy showed by himself with his disabilities to a very intimidating sport.   

Loren, that's a cool story!  

 

On a nother note, who cares if there's too many divisions?  I hear that a lot. I've never thought about it and this is my second year shooting , so guess I don't see the issue with another division?  

[ltrain7281]

2 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Loren, that's a cool story!  

 

On a nother note, who cares if there's too many divisions?  I hear that a lot. I've never thought about it and this is my second year shooting , so guess I don't see the issue with another division?  

Jason, I totally agree with you. I don't care if they create a division for every gun out there. Let people shoot what they want to shoot. The way I see it is after they created PCC we might as well open the flood gates. 

 

People keep talking about watering down the divisions, I do not see this in the pistol divisions. BUT PCC is the best example of watering down I have seen. Most B and C class pistol shooters are now M class PCC shooters. Most of them could barely break the half way mark in the overall standings in monthly matches with their pistols and but now with their PCC's they are typically in the top 10 to 15 in the overall.  

[ltrain7281]

24 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

These are true words.

These are NOT true words... This is from someone who's division was created by exactly the same ideas I have mentioned. Every division we have, had to get it's start from somewhere. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by ltrain7281

[B_RAD]

2 minutes ago, ltrain7281 said:

 

 

People keep talking about watering down the divisions, I do not see this in the pistol divisions. BUT PCC is the best example of watering down I have seen. Most B and C class pistol shooters are now M class PCC shooters. Most of them could barely break the half way mark in the overall standings in monthly matches with their pistols and but now with their PCC's they are typically in the top 10 to 15 in the overall.  

Ain't that the truth!  

[Foxj66]

Great idea if you add a rule first that requires removing 3 divisions for each one you add.

[ltrain7281]

28 minutes ago, RJH said:

OPEN, LIMITED, PCC, done

I think we should go all the way back to when there was only one division, OPEN division. But then there would be way too much crying by by your lower class shooters because they will still get their butts kicked by people that actually practice.

[ltrain7281]

Just now, Foxj66 said:

Great idea if you add a rule first that requires removing 3 divisions for each one you add.

Why do you have to remove one? What division do you currently shoot? 

[Foxj66]

1 minute ago, ltrain7281 said:

Why do you have to remove one? What division do you currently shoot? 

 

I shoot limited, I don't want to remove 1, I want to cut it down to 3 total. There are too many divisions and I hate seeing the competition spread out among more divisions. Its a competition not 3rd grade field day, everyone doesn't need a blue ribbon.

[JWBaldree]

Hi Loren, I have a few thoughts for you that are hopefully helpful:

 

First, what we basically do in USPSA is race with pistols with direction from an established rule set. Some people like to race, some people THINK they might like to race, and some don't want to be anywhere near the track for a variety of reasons. Groups A & C have already made their choice, and it seems like you are trying to welcome and include more of group B. The thing is, the people from group B will try our sport and then decide to join either group A or group C. The choice of their starting equipment will be irrelevant. Racers will quickly realize they need to upgrade their equipment or accept the challenge of using less than state of the art and still trying to win. No matter what form of racing I've been around, this observation has been universally true. People from group C will always find a reason to get away from the track, and especially use the excuse that their equipment isn't competitive so they obviously have no chance of winning.

 

Second, some types of matches and also some USPSA clubs are easier for newer competitors to get their feet wet in. As to match types, I run a hybrid steel challenge / USPSA type steel match that is very welcoming to newer shooters and people wanting to start out in the action shooting sports. Shamelessly copied from Rio Salado's Tuesday Night Steel, this match stresses safety and fun first and foremost. We get everything from kids and older women getting their first experiences to our local crowd of M and GM trophy chasers. I have a significant number of shooters that shoot this match but not our USPSA match, as this is where I think their comfort level is, and these are the same people that show up with their Glock 19s and other carry type of gear.

 

Also the focus of individual USPSA clubs can make a difference. We have two clubs in my immediate area. Our club by and large attracts the more competitive and higher classed shooters that seek out and travel to the various Sectionals, State, Area and National matches. We pride ourselves on stages that test the skills one will need to be successful at the bigger matches. Is this intimidating for newer shooters? You bet. On the other hand, the other club in the area features much much simpler stages, attracts more D to B class shooters, and in my opinion is way more conducive to newer shooters through less intimidation and easier success. Again more newer shooters can be successful at the other club with their carry gear that they bring to their first match.

 

Finally, I've given up on trying to retain new shooters, for the reason I first laid out. As racers and firearm SHOOTERS, we are brand ambassadors for the crack that is USPSA and action shooting. We can't understand how anyone can show up to an action match, be welcomed and mentored by the greatest group of people around, spend a day racing pistols, and NOT drink the Kool-Aid or smoke the crack that we offer. You know why they don't come back? Because they are in group C. This held true when I raced motocross and desert, it held true for the people I knew that raced sprints and boats, and it holds true for gun owners as well. There will always be way more gun owners than shooters, the same as there are way more vehicle owners than race drivers.

 

The best advice I can give is what you've already received. Run a few specialty matches and see what the response is. Then and only then will you know if your plan has merit.

 

Best wishes for your clubs success.

Edited March 22, 2018 by JWBaldree
spelling error

[ltrain7281]

2 minutes ago, Foxj66 said:

 

I shoot limited, I don't want to remove 1, I want to cut it down to 3 total. There are too many divisions and I hate seeing the competition spread out among more divisions. Its a competition not 3rd grade field day, everyone doesn't need a blue ribbon.

I get what you are saying about everyone doesn't need a blue ribbon and you are right that this is a competition. But it should be a competition between shooters shooting equal epuipment. Your Limited division that you compete in didn't become a division until 17 years after the sport started. The only division in the beginning was Open, I would be willing to bet that there was a large number of people that wanted their own division back then because they were tired of competing against Open shooters. That is really how we have gotten to where we are today in our sport.

 

 

[Foxj66]

Just now, ltrain7281 said:

I get what you are saying about everyone doesn't need a blue ribbon and you are right that this is a competition. But it should be a competition between shooters shooting equal epuipment. Your Limited division that you compete in didn't become a division until 17 years after the sport started. The only division in the beginning was Open, I would be willing to bet that there was a large number of people that wanted their own division back then because they were tired of competing against Open shooters. That is really how we have gotten to where we are today in our sport.

 

 

 

If open was all there was its what I would shoot. I wouldn't ask to make a division my guns fits in. I would buy the equipment I needed to be competitive, guns last a long time and even in open are a relatively small expense compared to ammo and match expenses. 

[ltrain7281]

11 minutes ago, JWBaldree said:

Hi Loren, I have a few thoughts for you that are hopefully helpful:

 

First, what we basically do in USPSA is race with pistols with direction from an established rule set. Some people like to race, some people THINK they might like to race, and some don't want to be anywhere near the track for a variety of reasons. Groups A & C have already made their choice, and it seems like you are trying to welcome and include more of group B. The thing is, the people from group B will try our sport and then decide to join either group A or group C. The choice of their starting equipment will be irrelevant. Racers will quickly realize they need to upgrade their equipment or accept the challenge of using less than state of the art and still trying to win. No matter what form of racing I've been around, this observation has been universally true. People from group C will always find a reason to get away from the track, and especially use the excuse that their equipment isn't competitive so they obviously have no chance of winning.

 

Second, some types of matches and also some USPSA clubs are easier for newer competitors to get their feet wet in. As to match types, I run a hybrid steel challenge / USPSA type steel match that is very welcoming to newer shooters and people wanting to start out in the action shooting sports. Shamelessly copied from Rio Salado's Tuesday Night Steel, this match stresses safety and fun first and foremost. We get everything from kids and older women getting their first experiences to our local crowd of M and GM trophy chasers. I have a significant number of shooters that shoot this match but not our USPSA match, as this is where I think their comfort level is, and these are the same people that show up with their Glock 19s and other carry type of gear.

 

Also the focus of individual USPSA clubs can make a difference. We have two clubs in my immediate area. Our club by and large attracts the more competitive and higher classed shooters that seek out and travel to the various Sectionals, State, Area and National matches. We pride ourselves on stages that test the skills one will need to be successful at the bigger matches. Is this intimidating for newer shooters? You bet. On the other hand, the other club in the area features much much simpler stages, attracts more D to B class shooters, and in my opinion is way more conducive to newer shooters through less intimidation and easier success. Again more newer shooters can be successful at the other club with their carry gear that they bring to their first match.

 

Finally, I've given up on trying to retain new shooters, for the reason I first laid out. As racers and firearm SHOOTERS, we are brand ambassadors for the crack that is USPSA and action shooting. We can't understand how anyone can show up to an action match, be welcomed and mentored by the greatest group of people around, spend a day racing pistols, and NOT drink the Kool-Aid or smoke the crack that we offer. You know why they don't come back? Because they are in group C. This held true when I raced motocross and desert, it held true for the people I knew that raced sprints and boats, and it holds true for gun owners as well. There will always be way more gun owners than shooters, the same as there are way more vehicle owners than race drivers.

 

The best advice I can give is what you've already received. Run a few specialty matches and see what the response is. Then and only then will you know if your plan has merit.

 

Best wishes for your clubs success.

Thank you sir! That is one of the best reasons to logic I have read from this thread and very helpful.  

[RJH]

51 minutes ago, ltrain7281 said:

I think we should go all the way back to when there was only one division, OPEN division. But then there would be way too much crying by by your lower class shooters because they will still get their butts kicked by people that actually practice.

 

 

I would be fine with that, too.   Every week some one wants a new division for some other new gun or style, gets old after a while. 

PS I am 6 division classified working on the last 2.  Now I generally shoot limited, and would shoot the same gun in open too, cause I like the gun and don't need my own division to feel special. 

 

PPS If someone wants to shoot they will, if they are going to cry about competitive equity when they can read the rules before they show up, do we really want them?

Edited March 23, 2018 by RJH

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, ltrain7281 said:

moto- Let me ask you a very simple and straight forward question. What division and gun to typically shoot in matches? And why do you prefer this gun over other guns?   

 

1911 in SS, 2011 in limited. I got them to compete in those divisions. That's how sports work. You figure out what is legal and appropriate, and you get that stuff. You don't get stuff and then try to get the rules changed.

[motosapiens]

59 minutes ago, ltrain7281 said:

These are NOT true words... This is from someone who's division was created by exactly the same ideas I have mentioned. Every division we have, had to get it's start from somewhere. 

 

I'll say the same thing I said to all 10 fans of carry optics when the 10 of them were crying and moaning and agitating for a new division. Show the demand. Put on outlaw matches with the division rules you want, and document how fast it grows in your local area. Get people to actually shoot those guns in uspsa matches now, to prove they really want to shoot those guns (rather than they just really want to water down the playing field until they can get a trophy). You are starting at the wrong end of this whole operation. It's not up to uspsa or the rest of us to create what you need. You go do it. Prove it works. Come back and show us.