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New USPSA Division Proposal


ltrain7281

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1 hour ago, ATLDave said:

 

 

I think the fact that our game reveals certain guns to be non-competitive is actually one of the points of the game.  The fact that few, if any, serious shooters use the Glock 19's in competition (despite many competitors owning such a gun and being familiar with it) is a useful data point in answering the question about whether it really does give away something in performance to larger guns.  

 

 

 

Good post.

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IDPA already has these divisions and no one shoots them. Most people still shoot SSP and ESP.

 

That said, I would recommend looking back at old posts about getting production optics off the ground and follow their lead. You'll need a vocal minority, but you could probably get it done if you really want to see it happen. At this point I don't see why we should limit the number of divisions, everyone is only competing with in their division. So the number of divisions has no effect on anyone else at that match. And if it can grow the sport we should all get behind it.

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It goes to whether, from an equipment perspective, USPSA is fundamentally an "experimental" sport or a "constrained" sport.  In some sports, the idea is to make the equipment very, very uniform such that only the skill of the competitors is being measured during competition.  In other sports, innovation in equipment is part of the game, and the competitive pressures drive that innovation forward over time.  Most equipment-heavy sports try to balance these traits to some degree, but have a bias towards one end or the other.  

 

USPSA has always been fairly "experimental."  One of the original purposes of the sport was to develop and test new techniques and new equipment.  By pitting different gun types against each other, over time competitors could see which guns actually provided performance advantages or disadvantages.  The creation of a different division for every potential gun-of-interest to some shooter works against that purpose.  

 

Think about the last 10-15 years in production.  Earlier in that time period, the conventional wisdom was that polymer-framed striker-fired guns were superior, and that DA/SA metal-framed guns were going the way of the dodo.  But subsequent events in the competitive world provided strong data that metal-framed hammer-fired guns were at least equal in terms of shooting performance.  If along the way USPSA had created a separate striker-fired division, that evidence and knowledge wouldn't have been gained, or at least not as clearly.  

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3 hours ago, ATLDave said:

I think the fact that our game reveals certain guns to be non-competitive is actually one of the points of the game.  The fact that few, if any, serious shooters use the Glock 19's in competition (despite many competitors owning such a gun and being familiar with it) is a useful data point in answering the question about whether it really does give away something in performance to larger guns.  

 

The interesting thing here is that in my little Walther PPQ experiment? USPSA proved to me that it’s a superior gun to CARRY to the M&P shield.

 

Because it’s shaped better to be held onto by someone desiring to shoot it fast, I performed twice as well with this gun in USPSA conditions as I did with the SHIELD which was my old carry gun.

 

We can and should use USPSA type stages to help decide which lil’ guns are actually suitable to fight with.

 

But that doesn’t mean we need a Subcompact Minor divison with a 7 round capacity or anything like that. 

 

A gun like that fits into existing divisions perfectly, it’s just not a competitive choice. And that’s fine. Accept it on the front end and shoot the match anyway.

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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There is nothing stopping like minded shooters from compete against one another using additional gun, or gear restrictions within existing divisions. For example, you and whoever else wants to compete against one another in the "Special" division could simply sign up for Limited 10 at the next match. Or just sign up in Production and keep track of who is adhering to the special restrictions.

 

The match attendance and results are already fractured too much as it is. We have 7 Divisions (LTD, L10, OPN, PRD, SS, REVO, PCC), 7 Classes within each division (GM, M, A, B, C, D U), and 6 Categories per division (Lady, Junior, Senior, Super Senior, Law, and Military). Look at all of these different methods for fracturing and separating results for recognition. To me, this is already too crazy as it is. We are almost to the point of just giving everyone a participation trophy and a pat on the head for a job well done regardless of actual shooting performance.

Edited by CHA-LEE
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I used my G19 when I first entered the sport (which is what I carry). Didn't necessarily think I was giving anything up at the time, especially as a new competition shooter. I did go out and get a G34 shortly after, if for nothing else than I would prefer to make small modifications I wouldn't likely do to my actual carry gun. 

 

I'd be more interested in shooting it again if I didn't have to declare limited minor,  as I carry appendix. But not curious enough to want a division for it.

 

I think it'd be more interesting to have a division for perfectly stock guns. No modifications at all. I'd mess around with that for sure. But alas, it will never happen as enforcement is difficult. Would be kinda cool to throw a stock glock on the stage and say everyone had to shoot with it, at least I think so.

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1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

There is nothing stopping like minded shooters from compete against one another using additional gun, or gear restrictions within existing divisions. For example, you and whoever else wants to compete against one another in the "Special" division could simply sign up for Limited 10 at the next match. Or just sign up in Production and keep track of who is adhering to the special restrictions.

 

The match attendance and results are already fractured too much as it is. We have 7 Divisions (LTD, L10, OPN, PRD, SS, REVO, PCC), 7 Classes within each division (GM, M, A, B, C, D U), and 6 Categories per division (Lady, Junior, Senior, Super Senior, Law, and Military). Look at all of these different methods for fracturing and separating results for recognition. To me, this is already too crazy as it is. We are almost to the point of just giving everyone a participation trophy and a pat on the head for a job well done regardless of actual shooting performance.

 

8 divisions, you forgot carry ops ;-)

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We don't need anymore divisions.


Agree. I think what is needed is different competitions. I personally would love to complete with a 5 shot J frame stub nose from a concealed draw but that would be impractical even shooting classic ICORE. The arrays favor at least 8 shots and distances require accuracy of at least a 4 inch barrel. I’ve never shot IPDA but I’ve seen YouTubes of indoor matches that might be close to this idea. To the OP wanting to shoot his Glock, a G17 or 19 could be fun in either production or limited. Competitive? Its possible. It’s been brought up before on other threads; we have a local shooter who’s a Limited M who draws a little BUG Glock from concealed appendix.


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1 hour ago, tattooo said:

OP, what do your fellow team Walther shooters think of your proposal ?

Tattooo, I don't know as I haven't asked them. I have talked to several different people that are in marketing and sales at a couple of the different gun manufactures and they thought a carry division would be a great idea. 

 

Everyone keeps saying that we have too many divisions already. This seems strange to me because if you go to USPSA's website and look under National Champions you will notice that in 1977 to 1993 the only division was Open. Now I will be completely honest I was not around in 1977 and have no idea what an open gun back in those days looked like or what kind of restrictions were enforced. But, what I do believe is that if we kept the same attitude back then as we currently have on this thread we would still only have one division.

 

I will from time to time compete with with one of my compact carry guns at a local match just for something different. My initial thoughts on this division after I got asked about it a month or so back was to make it strictly a stock gun division, no modifications at all. But after thinking about it for a couple of weeks and seeing the new changes that are happening in Production I knew there would be no way to police this and keep everyone honest and legal. So basically what I would like to see is a carry style division where the gun has a 4" or shorter barrel and would basically fit inside a predetermined sized box (Like production only smaller) and also have an approved handgun list. Magazine capacity is a never ending conversation so let USPSA decide on the capacity 10,12,15 as long as it is practical and the gun fits the box with the empty mag I'm good with it. I typically only shoot production so I am used to planning stages around 10 round restrictions so no biggie, just make it the same for everyone in the division. Now when it comes to accessories and modifications I say let the shooters do whatever they want as long as the gun fits the box. You want an to add an Apex trigger, no problem, you want to have front serrations added on the slide or the finger grooves removed or maybe undercut the trigger guard, no problem. Allow all the mods the shooter wants as long as it fits the box or is an approved gun and see what people come up with. As far as holster and mag pouches, I would suggest making it something along the lines of what Single Stack shooters have to use. 

 

Several people have stated that IDPA already has this division. I have never shot a sanctioned IDPA match so I am not familiar with their divisions or rules. I agree with people that I think we should keep our sport far as we can away from theirs as possible. I do not see where adding a division for these carry sized guns makes us similar or copying them in any way. We are our own sport with our own set of rules and our own following of members. A certain gun does not turn us into IDPA. If that was the case Single Stack should be renamed to Gateway to IDPA division.LOL

 

Several people have said that these sized guns are approved for production and limited division. That is correct, but how often do you see someone competing in these divisions with a compact gun? Probably not very often. My personnel opinion on this is because that most people myself included do not want to handicap ourselves in a match competing with a smaller gun compared to our competition. There is a big difference in recoil and sight forgiveness between a compact sized gun and a full sized gun. The longer sight radius on a full sized competition pistol is going to have a big advantage over a shorter sight radius-ed pistol. If you have your doubts on this look into some of the NRA High Power Rifle competitions where they use metallic sights. There is a reason they use a very long barrel with the sights mounted as far apart as possible. It helps make the gun more forgiving when you have a little sight mis-alignment. I think we could all agree that if you took two shooters that were equal in all areas and gave one of them a Shadow 2 and one of them a P10C, the shooter with the S2 is going to have an advantage. Especially in managing recoil and some in sight radius/forgiveness.  

 

What I am asking people for is to open your minds and think about it this in a couple of different ways.

 

1. If we really have too many divisions why have we added all these other divisions over the last 40 years? See link: https://uspsa.org/pages/champions

2. If you look at how the gun manufactures have responded with new guns and innovations in their designs it is quite impressive. Just about every pistol manufacture now offers an optic ready competition sized gun. Most of them are now offering a compact sized gun that is optic ready as well. The new gen 5 Glocks now come with a flared magwell, I personally think this is a great idea on a competition gun and I am sure that Glock will have no problem hitting the 2000 production quota to be legal for Production division. Let's see what they can come up with.

3. Not everyone is the same and likes what you or I like... what I'm getting at is some people like shooting Single Stacks and that is all they are interested in, others like shooting Limited and that is all they are interested in, while others like shooting Open and that is all they are interested in, some one else likes shooting Compact Carry sized guns and that is all they are interested in. We are all different and all have our own likes and dislikes about what kind of guns we want to shoot. Give this gun it's own place to compete and see what happens. 

 

I may have stated this in one of my earlier post but if we can create a division for PCC's to play and compete why would we not do the same for compacts?       

 

 

 

  

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Seeing as you are a MD of a club, why not do a test of this concept by offering a match designed expressly for carry guns and see what happens?  Go outlaw for a weekend and make up your own divisions, i.e fullsize, compact, subcompact.  Encourage people to set aside their competition guns for a weekend and get some practice shooting their EDC gun using their EDC gear.  

 

My club did this last year and it was pretty well received.   Sure there were some pre-match gamesmanship with guys proposing to show up wearing their Open guns under an overcoat, but in the end there were mostly Shields, G43s, G26s, Commander and Officer-sized 1911’s, and a handful of .380 guns that got shot and folks had fun with them.  

 

We’re doing it again on the 5th Saturday of this month.  

 

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19 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

Or do what I did. Sack up, and shoot the gun you want to shoot in an existing division in USPSA.

 

Last weekend I shot a Walther PPS (an 8rd singlestack just like a S&W Shield)  from appendix carry concealed. Five mags on my hip and a gun under a T-shirt.

 

 I didn’t complain that we need an “appendix carry SS minor” division. I shot what I carry, and had a blast doing it, and sucked it up in Limited Minor due to the holster’s position.

 

 I have video of this hair-brained adventure I’ll slap on youtube. Eventually.

 

Shooting your carry gun is fun. But some guys carry a G34 IWB or a fullsize 1911. Some of us carry subcompact 9’s. Making a “carry gun” division is a horrible idea given that much diversity. Let them play in SS or Production or Limited Minor where they currently fit - not that many guys are dying to have the disadvantage of the smaller gun. Trust me.

 

Great Response!  and 100% correct.

When I first started shooting IDPA many years ago, I did so with a G30 (compact 45) in SSP why?  because it was my carry gun.  After I learned the rules of the game, I got another gun and shot the same division.

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6 hours ago, 2MoreChains said:

Seeing as you are a MD of a club, why not do a test of this concept by offering a match designed expressly for carry guns and see what happens?  Go outlaw for a weekend and make up your own divisions, i.e fullsize, compact, subcompact.  Encourage people to set aside their competition guns for a weekend and get some practice shooting their EDC gun using their EDC gear.  

 

My club did this last year and it was pretty well received.   Sure there were some pre-match gamesmanship with guys proposing to show up wearing their Open guns under an overcoat, but in the end there were mostly Shields, G43s, G26s, Commander and Officer-sized 1911’s, and a handful of .380 guns that got shot and folks had fun with them.  

 

We’re doing it again on the 5th Saturday of this month.  

 

2MoreChains, this is really a great idea and something I have been thinking about doing at our club. Does your club require you to draw from concealment in your outlaw match? Or is it up to the shooters if they want to use a cover garment or not? Personally, I do not want to allow cover garments as that put us back in IDPA territory but I am also not against it if that is what the shooter wants to do. I know that there are several shooters that compete in USPSA shooting with appendix style holsters and their shirt un-tucked to cover their pistol and mags. There used to be a guy that would be on Ben Stoeger's pod cast that I believe made Master shooting with an appendix holster and his shirt un-tucked in Limited division. I do not remember his name or all the details but I do remember watching some videos of him shoot and was very impressed with his skills shooting this way. 

 

Now just so that we are clear it is not my intention to create a division or anything else that requires USPSA shooters to draw from concealment or anything of that nature. What I am proposing is a division where the guy that wants to shoot his Glock 19 or CZ P10C is NOT competing against  someone shooting a custom 2011 in Limited or a tricked out Shadow 2 in Production. 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, ltrain7281 said:

2MoreChains, this is really a great idea and something I have been thinking about doing at our club. Does your club require you to draw from concealment in your outlaw match? Or is it up to the shooters if they want to use a cover garment or not? Personally, I do not want to allow cover garments as that put us back in IDPA territory but I am also not against it if that is what the shooter wants to do. I know that there are several shooters that compete in USPSA shooting with appendix style holsters and their shirt un-tucked to cover their pistol and mags. There used to be a guy that would be on Ben Stoeger's pod cast that I believe made Master shooting with an appendix holster and his shirt un-tucked in Limited division. I do not remember his name or all the details but I do remember watching some videos of him shoot and was very impressed with his skills shooting this way. 

 

Now just so that we are clear it is not my intention to create a division or anything else that requires USPSA shooters to draw from concealment or anything of that nature. What I am proposing is a division where the guy that wants to shoot his Glock 19 or CZ P10C is NOT competing against  someone shooting a custom 2011 in Limited or a tricked out Shadow 2 in Production. 

 

 

The guy's name is Gabe White: http://www.gabewhitetraining.com/

 

And if you don't like "cover garments", you should probably go with "concealment garments" as they are much lighter than armor :P

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14 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

There is nothing stopping like minded shooters from compete against one another using additional gun, or gear restrictions within existing divisions. For example, you and whoever else wants to compete against one another in the "Special" division could simply sign up for Limited 10 at the next match. Or just sign up in Production and keep track of who is adhering to the special restrictions.

 

The match attendance and results are already fractured too much as it is. We have 7 Divisions (LTD, L10, OPN, PRD, SS, REVO, PCC), 7 Classes within each division (GM, M, A, B, C, D U), and 6 Categories per division (Lady, Junior, Senior, Super Senior, Law, and Military). Look at all of these different methods for fracturing and separating results for recognition. To me, this is already too crazy as it is. We are almost to the point of just giving everyone a participation trophy and a pat on the head for a job well done regardless of actual shooting performance.

 

You forgot CO, that makes 8 divisions.

 

(8) divisions x (6) classifications = up to 48 potential 1st places finishes at every match. + 6 more for the categories. #wateritalldown 

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30 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

The guy's name is Gabe White: http://www.gabewhitetraining.com/

 

And if you don't like "cover garments", you should probably go with "concealment garments" as they are much lighter than armor :P

 

Gabe is the one above I was referring to. I have been fortunate to squad with him. He is not only an amazing shooter but a quality guy.

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2 hours ago, ltrain7281 said:

2MoreChains, this is really a great idea and something I have been thinking about doing at our club. Does your club require you to draw from concealment in your outlaw match? Or is it up to the shooters if they want to use a cover garment or not? Personally, I do not want to allow cover garments as that put us back in IDPA territory but I am also not against it if that is what the shooter wants to do. I know that there are several shooters that compete in USPSA shooting with appendix style holsters and their shirt un-tucked to cover their pistol and mags. There used to be a guy that would be on Ben Stoeger's pod cast that I believe made Master shooting with an appendix holster and his shirt un-tucked in Limited division. I do not remember his name or all the details but I do remember watching some videos of him shoot and was very impressed with his skills shooting this way. 

 

Now just so that we are clear it is not my intention to create a division or anything else that requires USPSA shooters to draw from concealment or anything of that nature. What I am proposing is a division where the guy that wants to shoot his Glock 19 or CZ P10C is NOT competing against  someone shooting a custom 2011 in Limited or a tricked out Shadow 2 in Production. 

 

 

Loren, I'd suggest a side division to one of your regular matches. I got my start in IDPA but don't really want to shoot anything that resembles it now.  I look forward to your matches so I don't want to have to skip one because it's an outlaw match for only 4" guns. Having a side match/division that shoots along side the regular monthly match would be no problem.  

 

 

Also, can you make the bays taller?!:blink:

Edited by B_RAD
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13 hours ago, ltrain7281 said:

2MoreChains, this is really a great idea and something I have been thinking about doing at our club. Does your club require you to draw from concealment in your outlaw match? Or is it up to the shooters if they want to use a cover garment or not? Personally, I do not want to allow cover garments as that put us back in IDPA territory but I am also not against it if that is what the shooter wants to do. I know that there are several shooters that compete in USPSA shooting with appendix style holsters and their shirt un-tucked to cover their pistol and mags. There used to be a guy that would be on Ben Stoeger's pod cast that I believe made Master shooting with an appendix holster and his shirt un-tucked in Limited division. I do not remember his name or all the details but I do remember watching some videos of him shoot and was very impressed with his skills shooting this way. 

 

Now just so that we are clear it is not my intention to create a division or anything else that requires USPSA shooters to draw from concealment or anything of that nature. What I am proposing is a division where the guy that wants to shoot his Glock 19 or CZ P10C is NOT competing against  someone shooting a custom 2011 in Limited or a tricked out Shadow 2 in Production. 

 

 

 

We’ve only done it once, so it’s not like anything is set in stone.  But the basic premise is to shoot stages with your carry gun and gear in a run ‘n gun situation.  We did require concealment last time as that’s how most people around here carry. 

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I think it's a great idea for an extra match when you get 5 weekends in a month and everyone can bring what they *actually carry* out for some fun and practice. I think it's a terrible idea for watering down uspsa with yet another division that will have yet another type of non-carry gamer gun.

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