E3 meetering/extreme spread issues

[B_RAD]

Getting my 1050 switched over from 9mm to .40. I loaded up some ammo yesterday and chronoed it. I'm still in the testing phase so I loaded up 4.0 gr of E3. I also had some loaded ammo I got from a fellow shooter.  So that's two different batches of ammo, on two different 1050's, both using E3.

 

While chronoing I was getting 130 ES and 36 SD. I tested about 50 rounds of each load in 10 shot increments.

 

I've noticed when loading that I'm getting .1 - .2 gr fluctuatations just about everytime I weigh a charge.  Since I'm still getting the press set up, I'm weighing a lot. I've had about 200-300 drops at 4.0 gr so I'd think the powder is setteld in the hopper.

 

My powder for 9mm was prima v and even though it's oddly shaped powder, it metered extremely consistent and I'd get a SD of around 8 everytime I'd chrono.

 

My load is 180 gr Xtreme @ 1.185" w/4.0 E3 (going to bump it up to 4.2). Mixed brass. Win SPP. 

 

The other load I tested was 4.1 E3. 180 Berry's @ 1.185" mixed brass win SPP. 

 

Is this common fo E3? 

 

I think I'm gonna go to Nobel Sport 9 1/2 and try 5.0 gr. Since it's supposed to be equal to N320. 

 

Not impressed with E3.  

 

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by B_RAD

[phoenixsomd]

Getting my 1050 switched over from 9mm to .40. I loaded up some ammo yesterday and chronoed it. I'm still in the testing phase so I loaded up 4.0 gr of E3. I also had some loaded ammo I got from a fellow shooter.  So that's two different batches of ammo, on two different 1050's, both using E3.
 
While chronoing I was getting 130 ES and 36 SD. I tested about 50 rounds of each load in 10 shot increments.
 
I've noticed when loading that I'm getting .1 - .2 gr fluctuatations just about everytime I weigh a charge.  Since I'm still getting the press set up, I'm weighing a lot. I've had about 200-300 drops at 4.0 gr so I'd think the powder is setteld in the hopper.
 
My powder for 9mm was prima v and even though it's oddly shaped powder, it metered extremely consistent and I'd get a SD of around 8 everytime I'd chrono.
 
My load is 180 gr Xtreme @ 1.185" w/4.0 E3 (going to bump it up to 4.2). Mixed brass. Win SPP. 
 
The other load I tested was 4.1 E3. 180 Berry's @ 1.185" mixed brass win SPP. 
 
Is this common fo E3? 
 
I think I'm gonna go to Nobel Sport 9 1/2 and try 5.0 gr. Since it's supposed to be equal to N320. 
 
Not impressed with E3.  
 
 

In my CZ TS I normally get an SD of ~17.5 using e3 and 180g Bayou's

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[Steve RA]

You might try using the same brand cases for a test loading and see if that helps.  If you are using wildly mixed brass (lots of different brands) the differing case capacity can sometimes make the results vary more than expected - or desired.

 

Accuracy is really the goal, how do those loads compare to others you have tried ??

[B_RAD]

The accuracy seems to be good. Only tested at 15 yds off hand and it's good. 

 

But getting 130'ish ES seems awful high. I'm loading for 170pf to avoid any minor issues but 130 swings seem high. 

 

I just loaded up another batch at 4.2 and still getting .2 gr fluctuatations in drops. 

 

Normally I would think it's something I'm doing, and it still could be, but chronoing someone else's loads and getting the similar inconsistent velocities makes me wonder. 

 

I am going to go back out and chrono tomorrow but with .2 gr powder drop inconsistenies I doubt it's going to tighten up. 

[B_RAD]

The accuracy seems to be good. Only tested at 15 yds off hand and it's good. 

 

But getting 130'ish ES seems awful high. I'm loading for 170pf to avoid any minor issues but 130 swings seem high. 

 

I just loaded up another batch at 4.2 and still getting .2 gr fluctuatations in drops. 

 

Normally I would think it's something I'm doing, and it still could be, but chronoing someone else's loads and getting the similar inconsistent velocities makes me wonder. 

 

I am going to go back out and chrono tomorrow but with .2 gr powder drop inconsistenies I doubt it's going to tighten up. 

[zzt]

I never had really good consistency with the Dillon powder measure until I took it apart and deburred and polished all the parts.  After that, no problem.

 

I load 40 for a variety of things, including Major.  With e3, I found it almost impossible to get SDs higher than single digits.

 

Here was my first load:  All used mixed HS brass and usually CCI500 primers.

 

3.6 gr e3 under a lead TC bullet:  first string of ten= 6.05SD, 167.3PF.  Second string of 10= 6.50Sd, 167.1PF.  Third string of 20= 6.17SD, 167.2PF.

 

The same load with BBI bullets yielded three strings (10, 10, 20) of 7.4SD, 7.9SD and 7.4 SD all at 163.9PF.

 

Upping the charge to 3.7gr yielded 4.8SD, 172PF for the LTC and 6.9SD, 171PF with the BBI.  Substituting a Falcom TC bullet I gor 7.15Sd and 176PF.

 

All of these were loaded using the polished Dillon Powder Measure. I'll also say I was very careful to operate the press in a very consistent manner.

[B_RAD]

18 minutes ago, zzt said:

I never had really good consistency with the Dillon powder measure until I took it apart and deburred and polished all the parts.  After that, no problem.

 

I load 40 for a variety of things, including Major.  With e3, I found it almost impossible to get SDs higher than single digits.

 

Here was my first load:  All used mixed HS brass and usually CCI500 primers.

 

3.6 gr e3 under a lead TC bullet:  first string of ten= 6.05SD, 167.3PF.  Second string of 10= 6.50Sd, 167.1PF.  Third string of 20= 6.17SD, 167.2PF.

 

The same load with BBI bullets yielded three strings (10, 10, 20) of 7.4SD, 7.9SD and 7.4 SD all at 163.9PF.

 

Upping the charge to 3.7gr yielded 4.8SD, 172PF for the LTC and 6.9SD, 171PF with the BBI.  Substituting a Falcom TC bullet I gor 7.15Sd and 176PF.

 

All of these were loaded using the polished Dillon Powder Measure. I'll also say I was very careful to operate the press in a very consistent manner.

Talking about consistency, I'm using a 1050 with Mrk 7. The case coming off the Mr BF powder funnel is kinda doing this double thump. I'm used to it doing it once with 9mm but can't remember it doing a double thump. It's sticking.  I'm gonna try tumbling in corn cob to see if that powder residue will assist/lube the case so it'll easy off more smoothly.  I use one shot, but just spary inside a bag and then roll the cases in it. I don't spray inside the case mouth.

 

I've never had this problem with any other powder I've used.    

 

 

While I don't want to take the powder measure apart and debut it, I may if that helps. Do you have a link to something showing how and what to debur?

 

Thanks. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by B_RAD

[zzt]

The MBF funnel will do that if you wet washed your brass and didn't put any wax or other lube in the water.  I have to do the same thing with the wet washed brass I buy.  30-45 minutes in dry media with a dash of Dillon Case Cleaner in it does the trick.  Also, the amount of bell makes a difference.  As long as your bullet feeder still works, adjust until the bell is barely visible.

 

I don't have a link to debur.  Just scrape or sand down any rough edges and polish all mating surfaces.  The idea is to eliminate anything that hinders the smooth movement of the bar.

[Chili]

I just did some loads of E3 trying to work up a load for my Tac Sport and didn't experience that, found it metered quite well but then I'm using a ghetto SDB.   With plated 180's the 3.8 load had an ES of 44 and SD of 16.33, the 4.0 load was ES 34 and SD of 10.15 and the 4.2 load was ES 40 and SD of 10.34, all of these were from ten shot strings.  I need to go back and do some more at 4.3 as the 4.2 load was only 171PF which is too close for comfort in IPSC.

[SCTaylor]

Yeah somethings up with your powder hopper. I've loaded 7lbs? of e3 for 9mm using 3.7 grains and it's pretty damn spot on.

 

Cases sticking to the funnel could also be an issue, e3 meters pretty well once settled in but the clunk could cause erratic throws.

[B_RAD]

Thanks everyone for the replies. 

 

Sounds like I've got a couple of small things to work out. 

 

Though, I'm still curious to why I was getting such a high SD/ES on someone else's ammo? 

 

 

[zzt]

They may have the same problem as you.

[SCTaylor]

Might need to turn up the speed a little.

Looking at my data, the lower FPS charge had a 47es and 15sd where a slightly higher FPS charge was 25es and 9sd.


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[rowdyb]

email sent.

 

nothing personal, but chasing things in ammo/press/chrono is very frustrating. try looking at one thing at a time and making sure it is perfect and then don;t change it and move to the next. whenever i try to wholesale fix or diagnosis things it never works at the press. i have to go small step by small step and focus on one exact thing at a time. eventually i normally find it. sometimes it's obvious and others a surprise.

 

if E3 doesn't work for you and your press then don't use it. I'd take it off your hands as I like it and get good results. (reminds me of my experiment with n320. many people love it but i hate it.i constantly got wild numbers with it and was constantly frustrated with crazy ES and SD numbers. let alone going to the 7th round at area matches twice. so i ditched it!)

[rowdyb]

On 2/26/2018 at 6:34 PM, B_RAD said:

just loaded up another batch at 4.2 and still getting .2 gr fluctuatations in drops. 

that's your issue i think. whatever is happening to cause that of course would give you wild differences in measurements. something in the powder drop process isn't right.

 

full disclosure, it's some ammo i gave him that he also isn't happy with the chrono results. so i feel vested in helping problem solve him making ammo he does like. and i recommended the E3. so strike two, hahahaha.

 

are you also doing the put ten throws in the pan then divide by 1o to get a truer average charge weight? my scale isn't super awesome at reading one charge but i do feel a little better taking the average of 10. sorry for rambling and interjecting in your thread....

 

 

[B_RAD]

2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

that's your issue i think. whatever is happening to cause that of course would give you wild differences in measurements. something in the powder drop process isn't right.

 

full disclosure, it's some ammo i gave him that he also isn't happy with the chrono results. so i feel vested in helping problem solve him making ammo he does like. and i recommended the E3. so strike two, hahahaha.

 

are you also doing the put ten throws in the pan then divide by 1o to get a truer average charge weight? my scale isn't super awesome at reading one charge but i do feel a little better taking the average of 10. sorry for rambling and interjecting in your thread....

 

 

Just to be clear. I'm not blaming Rowdy for anything. The chrono results could be due to something I'm not doing correctly. 

 

The gun you sold me is awesome!  

 

I tumbled the loaded ammo you gave me. People swear that doesn't have an affect on it's performance but who knows?  Like I said, there also may have been some errors on the chrono process on my end. So, who knows. 

 

I do feel that my set up on my press is still not completely where it needs to be. So, there may be some issues there too.  

 

I'm starting to think .40 takes a little more effort/steps than what I had to do with 9mm. 

 

The first is dealing with any bulge. So, you have to either push thru separately (which I do not want to do)  or U die. Both make the case undersized and therefor it's gonna cause more friction on the expanding and belling stations. 

 

I also think you need to do more for lubing than just putting cleaned (wet tumbled) cases in a bag with a spray of one shot. I do not want to use any other lube but I think I'll have to throw the cleaned cases in the tumbler with dry media w/polish to help the sticking issue I'm getting. 

 

I'll get this worked out. Hopefully this weekend. 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2018 by B_RAD

[zzt]

Tumble the wet cleaned cases is dry media with a capfull of Dillon Case Cleaner added to the first batch.

 

Your chrono technique may well be at fault.  You are only going to get accurate readings it the path of the bullet is parallel to the view ports, and dead center along the axis of the chrono.  It is astonishing how much a little off varies the velocities reported.  I'm not trying to be smart allecky, but if I gave you a bunch of my 4-5SD rounds to chrono, I'd bet you come back with extreme spreads and SDs that were awful.  Your chrono regimen has to be PRECISE and REPEATABLE every time.

 

Case bulge in 40 is almost entirely eliminated by using a Lee Factory Carbine Crimp Die.  It sizes on the way down, crimps, and sizes again on the way up.  I just use standard Hornady Dies, but add the Lee CFCD.  There is no way I would spend the time to push through each case.  I get 1% to 2% that won't drop freely all the way to the bottom of my Hondo checker.  They all chamber and feed, but I relegate them to the practice pile anyway.

 

If your cases are sticking when being expanded, that is another cause for variation.  Range brass has different hardness and thickness, and each sticks more or less hard.  So the variation will affect SD when you chrono.  Press operation has to be smooth as silk to get good, low single digit SDs.

 

BTW, One Shot does not do the trick.  It is the inside of the case mouth that needs the 'lube'.

 

BTW2, buy a Mr. Bulletfeeder powder funnel/expander.  It works miracles, and eliminates the possibility of a crooked seated bullet bulging the case.

 

I was in your shoes at the beginning.  As Rowdy says, one step at a time

[B_RAD]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

Tumble the wet cleaned cases is dry media with a capfull of Dillon Case Cleaner added to the first batch. Gonna try this for sure. 

 

Your chrono technique may well be at fault.  You are only going to get accurate readings it the path of the bullet is parallel to the view ports, and dead center along the axis of the chrono.  It is astonishing how much a little off varies the velocities reported.  I'm not trying to be smart allecky, but if I gave you a bunch of my 4-5SD rounds to chrono, I'd bet you come back with extreme spreads and SDs that were awful.  Your chrono regimen has to be PRECISE and REPEATABLE every time. The more I think about how I set up everything I'm more convinced this was the problem. 

 

Case bulge in 40 is almost entirely eliminated by using a Lee Factory Carbine Crimp Die.  It sizes on the way down, crimps, and sizes again on the way up.  I just use standard Hornady Dies, but add the Lee CFCD.  There is no way I would spend the time to push through each case.  I get 1% to 2% that won't drop freely all the way to the bottom of my Hondo checker.  They all chamber and feed, but I relegate them to the practice pile anyway. Lee U die is giving me good results. I may go with the FCD. 

 

If your cases are sticking when being expanded, that is another cause for variation.  Range brass has different hardness and thickness, and each sticks more or less hard.  So the variation will affect SD when you chrono.  Press operation has to be smooth as silk to get good, low single digit SDs.

 

BTW, One Shot does not do the trick.  It is the inside of the case mouth that needs the 'lube'.

 

BTW2, buy a Mr. Bulletfeeder powder funnel/expander.  It works miracles, and eliminates the possibility of a crooked seated bullet bulging the case. I'm using a MBF funnel/expander. 

 

 

 

 

I'm getting a weird double thump as the tool head goes back up. I've figured out that it's from the powder funnel and the Lee U die. That's gotta be causing the inconsistent powder drops. Hoping the dry media will help. 

 

I was in your shoes at the beginning.  As Rowdy says, one step at a time

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by B_RAD

[Shadowrider]

I had some issues with variance myself tho I didn't get numbers as crazy as you.

 

I did the polish thing, it can't hurt, but in my case I didn't see any improvement.  I do run the failsafe rod and it actually helps with this so I was a bit disappointed.  Then I strapped an aquarium pump to my measure.  Still no dice.  What I found was that if your bench moves much at all you are jacking with your powder throws pretty hard.  I had always loaded with ball powders which measure like water, they just don't vary in my experience but flake powders sure do.  Bolt your bench to the wall if you have to, but make sure your press isn't shaking in it's cycle.  How smooth you run it makes all the difference in the world.  If you case feeder moves at all, that's your sign.  Now I get SDs around 10 or 12 with mixed brass.  That works for me as long as the groups are good.

[B_RAD]

Went back out to chrono. 

 

My set up was better. I was getting about 16SD and 40ES.  

 

I've used two different powder hopers with E3 and also loaded up some ammo with 5.0 gr of 9 1/2. E3 is consistent when the press is smooth. I tested 20 drops with just a case in the powder stations and got as consistent as your expect. But adding the rest of the stations and the variations increased. The 9 1/2 was consistent not matter what but it's a ball and the E3 is the flake. So, that makes sense. 

 

I'm still not sold on E3. But not sure I want to go with 9 1/2 either. The wind blew over my chrono so I had to stop testing. Probably gonna have to bump the 9 1/2 up to 5.2.  Hopefully I can get back out and chrono some more and get a load settled on. 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2018 by B_RAD

[zzt]

When you eliminate the inconsistencies with press operation, your SDs will fall to single digits.  If you decide to try the Lee CFCD, go back to your regular sizing/decapping die.  The Lee U die makes the case smaller, so the MBF funnel has to open it more.  That results in sticking, especially with wet cleaned brass.  You said your double thump was because of the U die and the MBF.  Tumble the brass and use your Dillon sizing die for a bunch.  See if press operation is smoother.  I'll bet it is.  You can then try the U die again and see if it makes it worse or not.

[B_RAD]

28 minutes ago, zzt said:

When you eliminate the inconsistencies with press operation, your SDs will fall to single digits.  If you decide to try the Lee CFCD, go back to your regular sizing/decapping die.  The Lee U die makes the case smaller, so the MBF funnel has to open it more.  That results in sticking, especially with wet cleaned brass.  You said your double thump was because of the U die and the MBF.  Tumble the brass and use your Dillon sizing die for a bunch.  See if press operation is smoother.  I'll bet it is.  You can then try the U die again and see if it makes it worse or not.

I'll give it a try.

[StuckinMS]

2 hours ago, B_RAD said:

I'll give it a try.

If not E3 then what are you going go try.  I am tired of HS6 and am looking for a proven solotion.  I buy lots of powder at a time so anyone wanting to give me an answer other than n320 please chime in.

[B_RAD]

9 minutes ago, StuckinMS said:

If not E3 then what are you going go try.  I am tired of HS6 and am looking for a proven solotion.  I buy lots of powder at a time so anyone wanting to give me an answer other than n320 please chime in.

I've got some Vectan 9 1/2.  It's supposed to be equivalent to N320. I tried 5.0 gr. My chrono fell over while testing today but I think I was getting 860 fps.  I need about 940fps. I'll have to test it again after I make sure my chrono is working. 

 

I might also try prima sv. 

 

 

[StuckinMS]

Thanks