Moved to Open

[americanbrosinarms]

I was shooting Iowa Sectionals 2017 and there was an unloaded table start. I am shooting Production and was on track to Win B Class.

 

Had all my mags loaded from as I walked up to the stage and let me stage routine cause me to get moved to open.

 

On the make ready I grabbed my last mag put my 11th round in and placed it on the table along with my handgun. Buzzer goes off I have a great stage very happy with my run until the R.O. walks up and tells me I am moving to open.

 

Worst part is that the 11th round wasn't needed I only fired 8 before performing my first reload.

 

Moved to open and got 16th out of 33 open shooters I finished the match with 10rd magazines and my standard production set up.

 

Anyone else been moved to open for something that didn't actually help them?

 

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[kipdynamite]

I made the same mistake with an unloaded start at my first match, but got moved to limited minor.

[Bkreutz]

14 minutes ago, kipdynamite said:

I made the same mistake with an unloaded start at my first match, but got moved to limited minor.

Someone was being kind, or didn't know the rules.

 

One of the things I advise production shooters to do is to not load 11 rounds into a start mag for just the reason described. It's just one more thing to remember (especially when you're new and nervous already). Use a "Barney" mag. I remember telling this to a number of new shooters, having them tell me that it won't happen to them, just to watch them do it within the next 2 weeks. Tough lesson to learn.

[americanbrosinarms]

I made the same mistake with an unloaded start at my first match, but got moved to limited minor. <_>

Wish they would have moved me limited.

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[americanbrosinarms]

Someone was being kind, or didn't know the rules.
 
One of the things I advise production shooters to do is to not load 11 rounds into a start mag for just the reason described. It's just one more thing to remember (especially when you're new and nervous already). Use a "Barney" mag. I remember telling this to a number of new shooters, having them tell me that it won't happen to them, just to watch them do it within the next 2 weeks. Tough lesson to learn.

That is what I am doing now moved to Single Stack and won't let it happen again.

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[Mcfoto]

When I shoot production, the second I read unloaded start in the instructions I reach in my pocket for the start mag and unload the eleventh round.


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[americanbrosinarms]

When I shoot production, the second I read unloaded start in the instructions I reach in my pocket for the start mag and unload the eleventh round.


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My problem fell into the routine... days almost over was in a flow then bam hit with the open move. Shot a 69% classifier in open though.

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[kipdynamite]

2 hours ago, Bkreutz said:

Someone was being kind, or didn't know the rules.

 

One of the things I advise production shooters to do is to not load 11 rounds into a start mag for just the reason described. It's just one more thing to remember (especially when you're new and nervous already). Use a "Barney" mag. I remember telling this to a number of new shooters, having them tell me that it won't happen to them, just to watch them do it within the next 2 weeks. Tough lesson to learn.

The RO was a friend and a GM who brought me along to see how I liked it, so the former is most likely the reason.

Edited February 10, 2018 by kipdynamite

[kipdynamite]

2 hours ago, americanbrosinarms said:

Wish they would have moved me limited.

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For me I guess it didn't really matter. I've yet to shoot in either division.

[americanbrosinarms]

For me I guess it didn't really matter. I've yet to shoot in either division.

Just would have felt like a more reasonable move vs move a production set up to a full race division. But I guess the rules are the rules.

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[jcc7x7]

The call was correct and your attitude is good!

that said?

Did the RO pick up your mag and strip the remaining rounds out of it?

[Part_time_redneck]

When I took the RO class I was curious and asked about the rule. Like a production shooter overloading mags and getting bumped to open vs limited where he would be legal. Seemed like a bit of overkill. Not debating the rule, was just curious. The answer I got was " because it's supposed to hurt". 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Part_time_redneck said:

When I took the RO class I was curious and asked about the rule. Like a production shooter overloading mags and getting bumped to open vs limited where he would be legal. Seemed like a bit of overkill. Not debating the rule, was just curious. The answer I got was " because it's supposed to hurt". 

And that’s a good answer. Unintended or not it’s still cheating to overload mags.

[Gooldylocks]

2 hours ago, Part_time_redneck said:

When I took the RO class I was curious and asked about the rule. Like a production shooter overloading mags and getting bumped to open vs limited where he would be legal. Seemed like a bit of overkill. Not debating the rule, was just curious. The answer I got was " because it's supposed to hurt". 

 

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

And that’s a good answer. Unintended or not it’s still cheating to overload mags.

Yup. You are being actively punished for not obeying the rules. There are times when I have really not wanted to have to do that as an RO, but rules is rules.

 

Personally, when I shoot production I have my rear most pouch with 11 in it. As soon as I see unloaded start, I take out that mag and pop out the top round. Then your Make Ready procedure doesn't change at all. Same thing if it is an unloaded gun holstered start, because if for some crazy reason I ended up going to pouch 6 on my belt I don't want it to have 11 in it and end up bumped.

 

\rant: I have never really understood why people will go up and put in a mag with 10, then rack one in, then put that one back and pull out a different mag and then have to do this whole magazine shuffle business. Make your Make Ready sequence as simple and routine as it can be, and focus 100% on doing it the same every time. Doing it the same puts your mind in the "okay it's time to shoot a stage" mode and will make you perform better. /rant

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, Gooldylocks said:

\rant: I have never really understood why people will go up and put in a mag with 10, then rack one in, then put that one back and pull out a different mag and then have to do this whole magazine shuffle business. Make your Make Ready sequence as simple and routine as it can be, and focus 100% on doing it the same every time. Doing it the same puts your mind in the "okay it's time to shoot a stage" mode and will make you perform better. /rant

Why, because never have ANY mag on your belt or person with >10 rounds in a restricted division, ever. I had 4 pouches on my belt. I would barney from #4, put it back and would load a mag from a pocket for a loaded start. Any other kind of start, ANY mag would be fine to load after the start. I didn't have to do anything other than place a mag (or mags) where the WSB required it. An unloaded start can be distracting enough without having to screw around downloading the mag with (hopefully) 11 rounds.  I only wanted to shoot Open by choice.

[Beef15]

I carry five on my belt with 10 and my normal start mag with 11 in my pocket.

Unloaded start of any sort I throw the mag in my pocket into my range bag as soon as I know the stage brief.

[Flatland Shooter]

On 2/10/2018 at 9:06 AM, americanbrosinarms said:

 

Anyone else been moved to open for something that didn't actually help them?

 

 

When I was shooting open, I had a small white dot painted just inside my magwell.  I used this as a mental aid to help with my reloads.  If I could see the dot, I was reloading correctly.

 

A friend saw the dot and I explained why it was there.  He thought it was a good idea and added a dot to his Production gun.  The next major match we attended (Double Tap around 2012) was going well for the friend until a sharp eyed RO noticed the dot.  Neither of us knew that it was a big no-no and into Open he went.

[MemphisMechanic]

On 2/10/2018 at 12:17 PM, americanbrosinarms said:

Just would have felt like a more reasonable move vs move a production set up to a full race division. But I guess the rules are the rules.

 

If you’re obeying the rules in Production  at a major match you spent $1k in hotel and travel to attend...

 

Don’t you want every other Production shooter to be deathly afraid of the consequences of getting caught sneaking a few rounds in as an advantage? I shoot Production, and I certainly do.

 

We just had a Production M class winner at a major match get caught days after the match, too! (Fired 11 shots in online video without executing an emergency reload.)

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[tanks]

23 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

 

Did the RO pick up your mag and strip the remaining rounds out of it?

 

I am curious about this as well.

[CleverNickname]

15 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

We just had a Production M class winner at a major match get caught days after the match, too! (Fired 11 shots in online video without executing an emergency reload.)

 

Wait, so an MD looking at a video after the match is over and penalizing a shooter after the fact is OK, but if during the match someone is penalized for breaking a rule, they're disallowed from introducing video as evidence to support their appeal, as per rule 11.1.5.  That doesn't seem right.

[MemphisMechanic]

1 hour ago, CleverNickname said:

Wait, so an MD looking at a video after the match is over and penalizing a shooter after the fact is OK, but if during the match someone is penalized for breaking a rule, they're disallowed from introducing video as evidence to support their appeal, as per rule 11.1.5.  That doesn't seem right.

 

Who said anything about an RO?

 

He went home with a plaque. Sharp-eyed social media viewers caught it half a week later. It didn’t affect the match outcome at all, although he did offer to return it.

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[vluc]

21 hours ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

When I was shooting open, I had a small white dot painted just inside my magwell.  I used this as a mental aid to help with my reloads.  If I could see the dot, I was reloading correctly.

 

A friend saw the dot and I explained why it was there.  He thought it was a good idea and added a dot to his Production gun.  The next major match we attended (Double Tap around 2012) was going well for the friend until a sharp eyed RO noticed the dot.  Neither of us knew that it was a big no-no and into Open he went.

 

I had the flexmoney barber pole inside my Glock.  Once they made the rule change, out it went.

[americanbrosinarms]

On 3/13/2018 at 4:27 PM, tanks said:

 

I am curious about this as well.

 

Yes they picked it up and because it was an unloaded start and used my starter mag (still had 11 rounds in it).

 

Fired 6 rounds did a reload they picked it up and counted it.

[ima45dv8]

I was running my best friend (shooting Production) on a stage with an empty gun start condition. After the start signal I saw him reflexively reach all the way around to where he kept his 11-round Barney mag. Insert, cycle and start shooting.

 

I counted the ten shots as he engaged the first five targets. When he reloaded I watched to see if he would cycle the slide to reload the chamber, and if he did whether a round would be ejected. Third option would be that he'd just start shooting. He just went back to shooting.

 

Clearly the chamber was still loaded after 10 rounds, so off to Open he went.

[crofrog]

On 3/13/2018 at 3:33 PM, Flatland Shooter said:

 

 A friend saw the dot and I explained why it was there.  He thought it was a good idea and added a dot to his Production gun.  The next major match we attended (Double Tap around 2012) was going well for the friend until a sharp eyed RO noticed the dot.  Neither of us knew that it was a big no-no and into Open he went.

What rule does that fall under?