"Shorty" open guns for USPSA?

[ksf141]

Hi All, currently looking for a used STI 38 super or 9mm open to get back into the sport after a long break.  Ive seen a few STI Matchmasters/Steelmasters for a decent price and remember when these were/are popular for steel shooting with minor loads.

 

My question is whether or not some of you can speak from experience on the viability of using these guns with major PF loads for USPSA?  Does the shorter barrel make that much of a difference in recoil/snappiness with major PF loads?    Or is it mostly hype and these shorty guns can be set up fine to shoot major PF for uspsa?    Do you have a different opinion on 38 super vs 9 major? Thanks!

[traingq]

I had a STI Matchmaster, definitely can tell the difference between the shorty and the full size.  Shorty is for sure snappier for major loads, I for sure like shooting the full size gun for major loads

 

Running minor through the shorty isn’t bad though.  If I had to do it over again I would have started with the full size gun

[ksf141]

4 minutes ago, traingq said:

I had a STI Matchmaster, definitely can tell the difference between the shorty and the full size.  Shorty is for sure snappier for major loads, I for sure like shooting the full size gun for major loads

 

Running minor through the shorty isn’t bad though.  If I had to do it over again I would have started with the full size gun

Thanks, I was afraid that might be the initial feedback.  Im guessing why its also easier to find them on the used market for slightly better deals.  They are more limited in their versatility.  Im guessing if you had a full size gun and shot steel, you probably wouldnt be wishing you had a shorty gun but the same is not true for the other way around.

[jcc7x7]

I liked my shorty with a two port comp.  Probably shot it better than my current gun.

I had Dan Bedell build me a 5" with his comp. Great gun!

If I had the cash I'd have him build me a shorty again!

Like EVERYTHING else in this sport; comes down to you.

I only had to use about .2 more grains of powder in 9mm Major than my 5" gun (no popples)

 

I've switched to 9mm cause I just can't leave super comp brass on the ground!LOL

[traingq]

Yep exactly, yes the shorty is lighter, if that’s what you are worried about transition wise, but not to the point, in my opinion, to make you any better.

 

Im sure some do like it over full size guns, but that’s the nice thing about open, it’s all personal preference.  I was lucky where I was able to try out a full size gun from a friend compared to my shorty.  I think you’ll enjoy shooting the full sized gun more

[theWacoKid]

Some people do find the shorties violent, but I've also seen some that run awfully good and fast.  They definitely lose a lot of slide weight right off the bat which is a very nice bonus.  It is a personal preference thing.

 

I like the shorter than fullsize guns just for the size and the balance, not the weight.  Nowadays you can pretty much make any length gun weigh whatever you want, but the balance is a little more tricky to adjust if you're fixed on your desired weight and length.  So I kind of know the weight and balance I want and that's how I end up with a length.  Longer guns are easy to make muzzle heavy at a target weight.

 

Major in a shorty is no problem.  It's whether or not you prefer the gun impulse and balance overall vs the other options.

[Honkeymcgee]

I just got done building an open gun off a commander barrel. 

 

38SC and I live it. I don't find it any more violent than my full size CK but when I built it my plan was to run the short at 170 pf and I run my CK around 175. 

 

The same load I use in my CK is shooting 168 in my shorty that currently has 4, 1/8" holes,  so I'll bump it up a touch.  Point being I'm not dumping a bunch more powder, just didn't plan on trying to shoot a shorty at 175 PF. I used a 2 port instead of something with 3+ ports. 

[MonkeyPlague]

I run a Matchmaster in 9. I don't have any problems making major and it is a joy to shoot.

[ksf141]

7 hours ago, Honkeymcgee said:

I just got done building an open gun off a commander barrel. 

 

38SC and I live it. I don't find it any more violent than my full size CK but when I built it my plan was to run the short at 170 pf and I run my CK around 175. 

 

The same load I use in my CK is shooting 168 in my shorty that currently has 4, 1/8" holes,  so I'll bump it up a touch.  Point being I'm not dumping a bunch more powder, just didn't plan on trying to shoot a shorty at 175 PF. I used a 2 port instead of something with 3+ ports. 

This is a beautiful gun! Thanks for the info. So if I’m reading your post correctly, your PF dropped from 175 to 168 in the shorty gun with the same load?  Do you think it would drop even more with a 3 port comp? 

[Honkeymcgee]

40 minutes ago, ksf141 said:

This is a beautiful gun! Thanks for the info. So if I’m reading your post correctly, your PF dropped from 175 to 168 in the shorty gun with the same load?  Do you think it would drop even more with a 3 port comp? 

No not exactly. Didn't explain that good enough. 

 

I shoot about 175 in my full size CK. 

 

When I built this gun I wanted to shoot about 170. With the 4 popple holes it shoots 168 with the same ammo I've been using in my full size.  I was hoping the same ammo might make the PF I was aiming for in both guns but it didn't quite do it. It's no biggy, I'll just run a little more powder and if I have to shoot my CK as a backup, it will just be a little hotter. 

 

When I first built it before I put any barrel holes, it was shooting about 171 with the same ammo. 

[gmantwo]

My open gun is technically not a shorty, being a 6” barrel/slide. However, by using the Scheumann Tribrid barrel, you end up with a functional comp gun that is significantly shorter than a full length gun/comp. Swings like a shorty, but has the barrel length/forward weight of a full length. I like is so much I’m building another as backup. This time using a wide/long frame to get a touch more weight up front

[ksf141]

1 hour ago, gmantwo said:

My open gun is technically not a shorty, being a 6” barrel/slide. However, by using the Scheumann Tribrid barrel, you end up with a functional comp gun that is significantly shorter than a full length gun/comp. Swings like a shorty, but has the barrel length/forward weight of a full length. I like is so much I’m building another as backup. This time using a wide/long frame to get a touch more weight up front

This is a really interesting concept. I’ve seen tribrid barrels before but I don’t think I’ve ever seen them used in uspsa open glass without a comp like your setup. I’d be really curious to know how this performs versus a more traditional setup with an external comp. Anyone else running a rig like this to add to the conversation? 

 

I think they look look awesome without the comp on the end. Have to wonder though why this isn’t a more popular setup? 

[gmantwo]

The Tribrid comp is very effective. And for whatever reason, this is the loudest gun I’ve ever shot on competition. Everyone who has tried it has been surprised at how well it works. It is extremely accurate as well. The second gun we’re building will have the sight mounted off the slide, although I don’t have a problem with this configuration. And the sight is an excellent slide racker. BTW, we originally built this gun for my then 10 year old son, who was small for his age. He only shot minor in it, but it was very controllable through 2 Bianchi Cups, 3 Masters Championships & many USPSA matches. 

As to why few competitors use this setup, who knows. I run into people all the time who haven’t seen one before. And honestly, people emulate the top guns. For good or bad, those shooters use what their sponsors build/supply. (Not saying those guns don’t work, so no hating on me people.)They obviously work, and work well. 

I have quite a few matches this year, shooting and working, so if you ever see my Red, White & Blue gun, hit me up & you can gladly shoot it

[kimberacp]

gmantwo, what load are you running in your "red, white and blue"??

 

thanks

[gmantwo]

Minor is 4.3gr Titegroup with 115 SNS or MG

Major is 8gr Silhouette with 115 SNS or MG

1.156 OAL either way. 

My conventional open gun was .2 less at 7.8gr Silhouette, so I lost just a bit with the popel holes

[chenault]

I'm curious how the newer style shorties with the metal grips compare to the full size with a polymer grip.  Or does it make that big of a difference.  I noticed ck is selling a shorty now and am kind of interested

[lcs]

1 hour ago, chenault said:

I'm curious how the newer style shorties with the metal grips compare to the full size with a polymer grip.  Or does it make that big of a difference.  I noticed ck is selling a shorty now and am kind of interested

 

I had an AKAI V8 in 38SC.  Had all the bells & whistles.  Extremely fast and FLAT shooting.  The SS grip makes a huge difference with a shorty.

[ksf141]

20 minutes ago, lcs said:

 

I had an AKAI V8 in 38SC.  Had all the bells & whistles.  Extremely fast and FLAT shooting.  The SS grip makes a huge difference with a shorty.

Hmm, this starts to link up with my post from the other day about bringing back Para framed open guns. Could build a Para framed shorty for half the cost of a steel frame STI build..  maybe a shorty Para open gun with Schuemann tribrid barrel and no comp, very hipster I’d say. 

Edited January 31, 2018 by ksf141

[Honkeymcgee]

Here's two slow mo videos in the same range so you can get a decent comparison of how these two guns shoot. 

They are a full size CK with 3 popple holes and my shorty I built myself with 4 popple holes.  

 

Keep in mind I haven't really "tuned" a load for the shorty yet. I'm shooting the same load in both guns and still may be adding a couple more holes to the shorty. 

 

 

 

[ksf141]

1 hour ago, Honkeymcgee said:

Here's two slow mo videos in the same range so you can get a decent comparison of how these two guns shoot. 

They are a full size CK with 3 popple holes and my shorty I built myself with 4 popple holes.  

 

Keep in mind I haven't really "tuned" a load for the shorty yet. I'm shooting the same load in both guns and still may be adding a couple more holes to the shorty. 

 

 

 

THanks for these videos. Curious where you end up with tuning then shorty. It seems apparent in the video the shorty has noticeably more recoil. Appears to jump higher and do it quicker. Maybe it’s an illusion.  iPhone slo-mo is great. 

[kimberacp]

second video did have more recoil 

[kimberacp]

gmantwo, what caliber???  maybe, I missed that..

[digi531]

Hello ksf141, open division sized guns have been discussed many times and the bottom line is personal subjective preference.  I break the size down to three categories , shorty ( Comdr. Length. ) midsize, ( Infinity, IMM ) and full size ( gov,mt ) length slide.  Years ago I built a shorty similar to the Dan Bedell setup using a full length guide rod system.  The gun was fast and light and in my opinion not much fun to shoot, it was just a bucking horse.  Some people can handle it, you know strong grip and forearm strength, etc.. After years  of my own building I,ve come full circle back to full length guns, using a 5.4 inch bull barrel, four popple holes and a titanium comp.. It handles any power factor, shoots soft and flat ( but I hate that term ) and most importantly, works foe me.  Even if I were younger I would'nt use a true shorty with major PF, for steel yes, not for USPSA open division.  However, I would use something similar to an Infinity IMM open gun size.  Good luck.

[Honkeymcgee]

4 hours ago, ksf141 said:

THanks for these videos. Curious where you end up with tuning then shorty. It seems apparent in the video the shorty has noticeably more recoil. Appears to jump higher and do it quicker. Maybe it’s an illusion.  iPhone slo-mo is great. 

 

2 hours ago, kimberacp said:

second video did have more recoil 

 

Yes I did notice that. Also had a horribly sloppy grip when I shot that second video. 

 

It does flip a little more right now but the dot tracks right back to "zero" and does it quick. 

[redfisher]

17 hours ago, chenault said:

I'm curious how the newer style shorties with the metal grips compare to the full size with a polymer grip.  Or does it make that big of a difference.  I noticed ck is selling a shorty now and am kind of interested

I shoot a SVI steel gripped mid length gun with a TI comp and 6 45 Degree holes. Love the way it balances and shoots.