Moving to Carry Optic

[petrojc]

Well, my eyes have determined that I might need to move to a dot sight and leave my irons alone. I have dabbled in carry optic before, but I really have a hard time finding my dot for the first shot. Once I got going, I didn't lose it while firing, just out of the holster. Do y'all have any suggestions for making this transition easier? 

 

Thanks,

Jason

[scroadkill]

I tried CO 6 months ago for a few matches and got pretty fed up with all of the issues you mentioned and i went back to limited until tonight - I'm gonna give it another go.

Ive been drying firing a bit working on using the front sight for the first shot and letting the dot take over after that.

 

[Beef15]

Is your dot on the same type gun as you shot irons with? That greatly helps the transition.

 

Getting the dot as low as possible by milling not using a dovetail mount seemed to help me a lot.

 

Beyond that dry fire until you develop a new index, this will work without regard to the above. Doing a bunch of draws is boring, but that's what it takes, doing them on a simulated 25 or 50yd really hones it. Also work moving, leaning, seated all the positions you may face drawing or coming into, not being stationary and erect really throws some people off. Until you really develop that index leave the iron sight guns alone it'll just set you back, later you can transition between them with less work.

[Jake Di Vita]

4 hours ago, petrojc said:

Do y'all have any suggestions for making this transition easier?

 

Yeah. Dryfire. Every day.

[wtturn]

4 hours ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

Yeah. Dryfire. Every day.

 

^^^^

 

A refined index through repetition is the only way. 

[lacivilian]

I have found that it honestly helps to take off your iron sights. You have to find that new index point and this is nearly impossible to do when weaning yourself off of iron sights. If you truly want to be able to find the dot every presentation you need to get rid of them in dry fire for sure. I understand that this may seem contrary to most people's beliefs as most will tell you "use your iron sights to find the dot." This is wrong. Find the dot by presenting the gun in the same indexing point every single draw. The only way not to cheat yourself from finding the dot is taking off your iron sights and learning the correct and consistent presentation of the gun. 

[eric4069]

12 hours ago, lacivilian said:

I have found that it honestly helps to take off your iron sights. You have to find that new index point and this is nearly impossible to do when weaning yourself off of iron sights. If you truly want to be able to find the dot every presentation you need to get rid of them in dry fire for sure. I understand that this may seem contrary to most people's beliefs as most will tell you "use your iron sights to find the dot." This is wrong. Find the dot by presenting the gun in the same indexing point every single draw. The only way not to cheat yourself from finding the dot is taking off your iron sights and learning the correct and consistent presentation of the gun. 

Yep. How many Open shooters do you see using back up iron sights? None at all. Take your example from them.

Eric

[SCSU74]

Aaron Cowan has a lot of excellent videos on youtube under Sage Dynamics, but the thing that helps me the most is to pretend the red dot isn't attached. I look at the target where I want to shoot with both eyes open and draw/present as normal. If your mechanics are sound the dot drops in. It may not be exactly where you're looking, but it'll be close. Depending on distance/accuracy goals, as long as the dot is roughly in the area I finish the trigger press. Hunting the dot out of the holster slows me down quite a bit. I shoot an Aimpoint on my rifle so that helped the transition quite a bit as the concept is the same.

 

A larger MOA dot may help you as well. An RM07 has a ~6MOA dot IIRC, this is roughly the width of most front sight posts according to Cowan. I like a smaller dot and don't have an issue picking up the 3 MOA dot of the RM06. You can also turn up the intensity of the smaller dots to make the dot appear larger. It really depends on what your end goals are. For carry a larger dot may make more sense s it's faster to pick up for some.

Edited January 24, 2018 by SCSU74

[xpierrat]

Yep what others have said..... lots and lots of sight pictures till the dot is always there... look at the target not the dot ... You did not over night get to where the irons were almost lined up upon the push after a draw so don't expect the dot to be there after just a few thousand draws.

 

Don't switch back and forth between irons and red dot's  ( at least for a long time ) ... defiantly take both the front and rear irons off the CO gun.... they will slow you down lots ( talking a game gun not a SD gun )  I am sitting in my recliner right now with my CO game gun doing off hand dry fire because I run into off hand stages more than I like..   I will also load up a 140 mag with 147 no primer dummy loads to exercise my left hand to make it stronger. course you could just lift a 5lb weight but you don't get the extra grip sight picture time...   Most give up too soon on it because it is different.

 

I see CO replacing SS as the old farts class  LOL

[tkheard]

Hey, I resemble that remark. [emoji16]

[BadShot]

I've shot mostly single stack and revolver for the past 8-10 years.  I've decided to try CO now.  I just bought a CZ Shadow and sent the slide in to be cut for the optics.  I didn't find any plastic guns that I liked.  I think that it's gonna take a while to get used to it.

[JOThompson]

Generally,  how long do people need to get accustomed to the optic dot? I've toyed around with an optic on my 26 and 17 but really seem to be slower with it so far. 

[HoMiE]

2 hours ago, JOThompson said:

Generally,  how long do people need to get accustomed to the optic dot? I've toyed around with an optic on my 26 and 17 but really seem to be slower with it so far. 

 

A couple big things I see people do when Shooting with a dot is they wait for the dot to perfectly settle. You don’t need that usually on hard far or difficult presentation targets. Another thing if you think your slower with a dot is your focus is on the glass when it should be in the target. The dot moves around too much in recoil and nearly impossible to track the dot through recoil cycle. Practice on grip and index while watching target and the dot will show up where you are pointing. Learn how to call your shot when you see dot lift from target then get your eyes to next target and subconsciously your hands will get the dot to appear. 

[JOThompson]

Thank you, I see what you mean. I'll start trying that!

[pskys2]

On 1/23/2018 at 7:38 PM, lacivilian said:

I have found that it honestly helps to take off your iron sights. You have to find that new index point and this is nearly impossible to do when weaning yourself off of iron sights. If you truly want to be able to find the dot every presentation you need to get rid of them in dry fire for sure. I understand that this may seem contrary to most people's beliefs as most will tell you "use your iron sights to find the dot." This is wrong. Find the dot by presenting the gun in the same indexing point every single draw. The only way not to cheat yourself from finding the dot is taking off your iron sights and learning the correct and consistent presentation of the gun. 

I noticed that taking off the front sight helped a lot.  That and keeping BOTH Eyes Open.  And practice, dry fire and soon it seems to click in.

I'm using a JPoint with their adapter on a G34, not a MOS just in the rear sight dovetail.  It sits pretty low.

Little thing I've noticed though, took a year off shooting matches and started trying to shoot with both eyes open because of the dot, never could before with irons.  Now it seems it's better with both eyes even with irons.  

[Jake Di Vita]

3 hours ago, JOThompson said:

Generally,  how long do people need to get accustomed to the optic dot?

 

The better you are the less time you need. People with a well developed index can change between irons and a dot in as little as half a dryfire session. If you're newer to the dot and/or are younger in training age it can take some time because you need to initially develop the ability to be keenly aware of where the gun will be pointed. The goal is to be able to draw or look at anything and have the gun appear with the dot rock steady in the center of the glass at exactly the place on the target where you want it to be with no adjustment. As you improve at this, you'll notice you won't need to find the dot anymore. It will just go where you want it to go.

 

What helped me early on was to point in at the target, take a mental snap shot of what I felt about my body position, then try to recreate that body position precisely on the next draw. When you extend to the target and are not aimed exactly where you want to be, take note of the error and try to correct it on the next rep. A common series of events will happen where you'll be off, then you'll over correct, then you'll under correct, then you'll find the sweet spot. Once you're there see how many times you can do it before you're off again. I've found this to be a valuable strategy in dryfire.

[rowdyb]

I took my CO gun out today and agree with Jake above. I took about 14 draws and transitions and everything was a fast if not faster than I do with irons.

 

For me personally it helps to:

• shoot the same platform as I shoot in Prod. so CZ/CZ
• always keep both eyes open with CO
• keep my focal plane and attention at the targets. ignore the "gun" completely.
• see target, see dot, shoot, see streak of dot, shoot. transition to next target.

[lacivilian]

22 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I took my CO gun out today and agree with Jake above. I took about 14 draws and transitions and everything was a fast if not faster than I do with irons.

 

For me personally it helps to:

• shoot the same platform as I shoot in Prod. so CZ/CZ
• always keep both eyes open with CO
• keep my focal plane and attention at the targets. ignore the "gun" completely.
• see target, see dot, shoot, see streak of dot, shoot. transition to next target.

I often shoot with the streak of dot as well in CO

[petrojc]

Thanks for the input. I was thinking about taking the sights off, thought they might be a distraction. I found a G34 MOS for a good price locally, will pick it up this week. I figured I would need a lot of dry fire practice, but wasn't sure about switching back and forth between the dot and irons. I shoot close targets (under 10 yds) with both eyes open now, and my steel challenge rimfires have a dot (much easier to find the dot from low ready, than drawing from a holster). I am still trying to decide between the big dot (6 or 8 moa) and the smaller (3 or 4 moa). I use a 6 minute on my steel pistol and rifle, not sure about trying to squeeze in a shot on a partial target at 20 yds though.

[cody6477]

I'm in kind of the same situation as OP, having just started shooting open.  "Finding the dot" on my draw was a struggle.  It's getting a lot better, though, primarily through lots of dry fire time.  Slow and deliberate at first, then adding the timer and gradually shrinking the par, bringing the gun up to the target in a way that has the dot where I need it.  Still plenty of work to do, but the progress has been there.

[kipdynamite]

I've made the usual errors. I'd put the dot on, shoot a session, have good hits, but slower than irons and think "meh, I'm just going back to iron sights". Then a couple weeks later put it back on and get a little better, but still not as fast as irons, but still better hits. I'm cross dominant, so I have to either cant my head a lot or tape. With the RD, my right eye easily picks up the dot while my dominant left eye sees a clear target with a dot on it. It's a perfect picture. I'm having my CZ slide milled and just going to work it until my transitions and follow ups are as fast as iron sights. Hopefully to the point of no turning back.

[petrojc]

I couldn't commit to not being able to shoot my CZ with irons ever again, and the adapter plate just put the dot too high. I am letting my son shoot the CZ and I am going to try thr Glock MOS platform. I am still conflicted on the dot size though.

[xpierrat]

for steel challenge most shoot a larger dot  6 MOA min...  on my RFPO I use a 12 moa and I still don't think it is too big and I know of many who even go to the 16 MOA      If you shoot other discipline with the same gun go 6 to 8

 

I use a 6 on my CO gun because Vortex does not make a 8   yet HINT HINT Vortex.....

Edited January 31, 2018 by xpierrat

[petrojc]

I picked up a used Burris FF3 today with a 3moa dot. When I get a holster, I will check it out during some dry fire practice until I can get to the range. If it proves too small, I will steal a Vortex off one of my steel guns and use it.

[chrisstophere]

On 1/27/2018 at 6:08 PM, rowdyb said:

 

• see target, see dot, shoot, see streak of dot, shoot. transition to next target.

Do you mean that you see the streak from the recoil and shoot when that streak is in the part of the target you're aiming for?