gerritm Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 My son had a warning call from the RO at a local USPSA match on the SD calling for facing downrange for the start. Shooting limited. Looked thru a bunch of threads couldn't find an answer. First call he may have been looking and leaning towards the first target he was heading to. No argument there.Not sure if he was, but took the warning in stride. Second warning next stage he made sure his feet & shoulders were square to the back of the berm facing downrange and, his head was turned looking towards the first target/shooting position and was told his head had to be facing the back of the berm also. So we have shot literally at least a hundred matches and never been called on this. He was the only one, I did the same thing with no warning along with everyone else. RO, is a very capable and experienced shooter. After questioning the warning his reasoning was that he just went to an RO refresher re certify class and the instructor said it was an issue and to keep an eye out for this. We have always looked to the first shooting position before the start. Have no problem with it being a rule if it is. gerritm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwray Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 The rule book is their for the shooter and the range official. It’s a good idea if both read it.I’ve been hearing about the same situation happening at other matches with the head being slightly turned. Is there a significant advantage? Probably not. Is the RO being an ass? Probably. Would we be better off shooting something else like IDPA? Why hell no!!! So we just continue to show up and our part with hopes that it gets better one day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 16 minutes ago, mwray said: The rule book is their for the shooter and the range official. It’s a good idea if both read it. I’ve been hearing about the same situation happening at other matches with the head being slightly turned. Is there a significant advantage? Probably not. Is the RO being an ass? Probably. Would we be better off shooting something else like IDPA? Why hell no!!! So we just continue to show up and our part with hopes that it gets better one day The RO is being a ass for enforcing the rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frgood Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Perhaps the OP was referring to the inconsistent application of said rule. Quote He was the only one, I did the same thing with no warning along with everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerritm Posted January 22, 2018 Author Share Posted January 22, 2018 Nope, RO is not being anything, read the rule. Rule is the rule. Got it, I guess this was never enforced by any other RO in any match ever we have shot. Why I asked the question. Kind of surprised us. Many slight infractions in the game that apparently are not enforced. Yes inconsistent application of the rules. Thanks, Gerrit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Just for the record, I've seen this rule enforced quite a bit. Doesn't take a degree in rocket science, y'know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Remember there was a ruling in 2015 regarding the definition: Here is a screen shot.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 (edited) 48 minutes ago, teros135 said: Just for the record, I've seen this rule enforced quite a bit. Doesn't take a degree in rocket science, y'know. Indeed. Facing Down Range is strictly defined. Whereas standing inside shooting area is where you can game it. Edited January 22, 2018 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 If the WSB says "facing downrange" then yes, you must be squarely facing downrange with your feet and face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 I seem to remember quite a few RO/CRO insisting on following the WSB and the definition of standing up range. Nothing wrong with following the rule book. Perhaps many of us have gotten a tad be lax in this department. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 This one and "hands naturally at sides" gets abused quite a bit, and there is even a picture of hands naturally at sides in the rulebook:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 “Issuing a warning” for this doesn’t make sense to me. Either the shooter is in the start position, in which case you issue the “are you ready” command, or they aren’t, and you wait for them to get into the start position. If they appear to not be getting into the start position you want them to, then correct them before issuing the “are you ready” command, just like you would if someone forgot that it was a wrists above shoulders start and was standing with hands at sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happygunner77 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Pretty much, if the WSB only says heels/toes on marks (location only) and nothing else (doesn't say your stance or shooting position), your body position is defaulted to facing downrange. 8.2.2 And yes, this is 50/50 enforced, even on level 2 matches that I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 12 hours ago, pjb45 said: I seem to remember quite a few RO/CRO insisting on following the WSB and the definition of standing up range. Nothing wrong with following the rule book. Perhaps many of us have gotten a tad be lax in this department. just like with the range commands. I think a lot of Ro's are getting lax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwray Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 just like with the range commands. I think a lot of Ro's are getting lax.I agree 100%. It’s very easy to do when most all of the shooters that you run abide by all the rules without a hitch, but if all the RO’s are trying to fine you for any reason they can possibly find eventually they become hated by everyone. You have to somehow maintain a perfect balance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 19 hours ago, Bosshoss said: The RO is being a ass for enforcing the rules? With you it is usually more for comments between stages. Just being helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 20 hours ago, Bosshoss said: The RO is being a ass for enforcing the rules? some shooters and RM's think they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 21 hours ago, gerritm said: My son had a warning call from the RO at a local USPSA match on the SD calling for facing downrange for the start. Shooting limited. Looked thru a bunch of threads couldn't find an answer. First call he may have been looking and leaning towards the first target he was heading to. No argument there.Not sure if he was, but took the warning in stride. Second warning next stage he made sure his feet & shoulders were square to the back of the berm facing downrange and, his head was turned looking towards the first target/shooting position and was told his head had to be facing the back of the berm also. So we have shot literally at least a hundred matches and never been called on this. He was the only one, I did the same thing with no warning along with everyone else. RO, is a very capable and experienced shooter. After questioning the warning his reasoning was that he just went to an RO refresher re certify class and the instructor said it was an issue and to keep an eye out for this. We have always looked to the first shooting position before the start. Have no problem with it being a rule if it is. gerritm what rule is there for a warning? Get the shooter in the proper start position and start him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 24 minutes ago, bret said: what rule is there for a warning? Likely just a phrasing thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 this is why i usually just write 'toes touching marks'. I don't GAF where you are facing, and I don't want one squad to have an RO that is more literal or knowledgeable or asslike than another squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 9 hours ago, happygunner77 said: Pretty much, if the WSB only says heels/toes on marks (location only) and nothing else (doesn't say your stance or shooting position), your body position is defaulted to facing downrange. 8.2.2 And yes, this is 50/50 enforced, even on level 2 matches that I've seen. I would think that “toes on maks” is “otherwise specified” and that sentence in 8.2.2 doesn’t apply, but I’m not 100% sure. I’m going to send an email to my RO class instructor later to see if he can clarify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I thought that the default only applied if the WSB stated the start location only (e.g., "within Box A", or "outside the shooting area"). The exception to that would be adding "facing uprange", as that is explicitly defined in the glossary. Once you specify the position of toes, heels, or hands on marks, it becomes "otherwise specified", and the default is superseded by the WSB description. At that point, it's only constrained by the amount of detail given in the WSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happygunner77 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, DKorn said: I would think that “toes on maks” is “otherwise specified” and that sentence in 8.2.2 doesn’t apply, but I’m not 100% sure. I’m going to send an email to my RO class instructor later to see if he can clarify. Toes/heels on marks are locations. Hands relax at sides, hands on marks, hands above shoulders etc are stance. If the latter isn't stated, it's supposed to be default position on 8.2.2 and Appendix E3. Unfortunately, it's loosely followed. That's why WSB now specifies stance. Per rule book: Start position ....................The location, shooting position and stance prescribed by a COF prior to issuance of the “Start signal”. Edited January 24, 2018 by happygunner77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 this is why i usually just write 'toes touching marks'. I don't GAF where you are facing, and I don't want one squad to have an RO that is more literal or knowledgeable or asslike than another squad.This specifies location only. Some ROs will enforce the default position, others won't. Start positions like this are what started this thread."Toes on marks, facing anywhere, hands below belt" is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 toes on marks, facing wherever TF you want, hand wherever TF you want. if the WSB doesn't specify facing downrange but does specify other stuff, we use the wsb and not the default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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