Sight Tracking Issue

[Snowb1rd]

Hey all,

 

Ok so I've been trying to figure this out for a while and it's killing me. When shooting my CZ Shadow, the sights track nice and smooth, nearly vertical up and down with that glowing red hot fiber optic. Being that it's a full metal gun, my own reloads 9mm with 124gr barely making PF, the recoil is quite tame.

 

I was shooting around with my buddy's new M&P M2.0 Compact using factory ammo and the sights were manageable, but kept tracking up and to the right. Made it more difficult for follow-up shots. Can't figure out why it's going up and to the right. My grip is thumbs forward, and I rest my support (left) hand thumb on the slide/frame. It could be that I am pushing against the slide/frame during shots which is causing the front sight to drift to the right during the recoil impulse (but this doesn't happen with the CZ, at least not to the extent that it does on the polymer framed M2.0 compact).

 

For all you that shoot thumbs forward, are your thumbs touching the handgun at all? I would assume so, but maybe I've been doing it wrong this whole time. Trying to figure this out.

 

Thanks

[hrhawk]

Big heavy gun with smurf ammo minimizing the affect of rifleing on recoil.  

[Snowb1rd]

I get that, but is my thumb placement and resting it on the left side the issue?

 

[lgh]

2 hours ago, Snowb1rd said:

but kept tracking up and to the right

Right twist rifling and relatively light gun can move sights up and right. Much more pronounced for me if I shoot a 45 because diameter/weight of bullet is greater. You can wait for the sights to return regardless. If it effects accuracy, you have to change your grip. Dry fire helps a lot. I have learned to keep my thumb off the frame but YMMV depending on your grip. For some (my brother for example), it is not that important. My brother is a mason and has incredible grip strength.

[Arc Angel]

Well, over the years, I’ve participated in numerous discussions on things like proper grip, both one handed and two handed, and correct placement of the thumbs.  I’ve seen popular arguments that say the thumbs are only minimally used, and side pressure should NOT be applied to a pistol’s FRAME; and I’ve also seen this argument change to the assertion that it’s impossible to shoot a pistol well WITHOUT applying a certain amount of subtle side pressure while firing.  

 

What have I personally learned?  OK, I’ve learned that it’s important for a right-handed pistol shooter to:  (1) Squeeze a semiautomatic pistol frame in a manner that is almost exclusively (or should I say primarily) applied from front-to-back; AND, (2) to also maintain a slight (secondary) pressure with the thumb(s), towards the right-hand side of the gun.  

 

Now, ‘squeezing a semi-auto from front-to-back’ does NOT mean that a shooter should ‘heel’ a pistol’s butt into his hand.  (Which is one of the gripping mistakes that I believe you are making; or, at least, if not with the CZ then with your buddy’s M&P 2.0.)  

 

Listen, a lot of these pistol shooting skills normally occur on an almost subconscious level of personal perception.  (You know:  Like the newbie shooter who goes to a gun school, fires two or three thousand rounds over several days time and, all of a sudden like, he becomes a reasonably competent pistolero; BUT, if his life were to depend on it, he couldn’t really tell you either ‘How’ or ‘Why’ he’s able to do it!)  

 

Look, every pistol’s backstrap is different; and, although you might not be consciously aware of it, each backstrap has its own particular ‘sweet spot’.  (This is the one spot on every pistol’s backstrap that your grasping hand needs to learn how to use in order to more skillfully control the pistol.)  There’s one ‘sweet spot’ on your CZ; and there’s another ‘sweet spot’ on your buddy’s M&P 2.0.  I think your present problem has a lot to do with discovering and, then, learning how to use this, so-called, ‘sweet spot’ on your buddy’s gun.  

 

Right now I believe you’re ‘heeling’ that M&P whereas you are NOT ‘heeling’ your own CZ.  I, also, believe that the lighter frame on the M&P is causing you to anticipate the snappier recoil this plastic framed pistol is sure to produce every time it’s fired.  

 

Remember:  If you’re ever going to shoot a pistol well then your personal concept of recoil MUST CHANGE from that of some damnable force that you need to master and control into a more natural (and nonthreatening) physical reaction which you need to cooperate with in order to shoot straight and handle a pistol well; or, as I often say when I’m teaching:  

 

RECOIL IS YOUR FRIEND!  WITHOUT IT YOU CANNOT SHOOT STRAIGHT; AND ESPECIALLY NOT AT SPEED.  

 

What is a workable solution for you?  Well, I’d suggest that you should first get the ‘wrinkles ironed out’ in your overall grip.  Look for AND find the ‘sweet spot’ on that M&P’s backstrap.  This will go a long way toward helping you to disarticulate your trigger finger from the rest of your hand and help you to achieve a highly desirable, straight back, trigger pull.  

 

It, almost, goes without saying that you need to carefully watch your front sight through the entire, up and down, recoil cycle.  (Don’t worry about precisely ‘nesting’ your front sight.  Allow it to sit a little high up and remain un:nested.  The correct way to compensate for a high front sight is to pick a slightly lower than usual aim point on the target’s COM.  Then, on repetitive shots, tap the trigger the moment your SLIGHTLY ELEVATED front sight falls just below the center of the target.  

 

Remember:  Don’t forget that it’s the ‘sweet spot’ on the pistol’s backstrap which actually controls all of the rest of the pistol’s movement.  Always make certain to place the ‘sweet spot’ correctly along the governing heel of your grasping hand — Which, while we’re on this subject, is the very first thing that I do whenever I grasp a pistol.  

 

Now, thumbs — Thumbs!  Your thumbs and the slight ancillary side pressure they provide are usually, but NOT always, orientated forward — Forward!  The most outstanding exception I know occurs when a right-handed shooter starts to drop his shots to the low-left.  

 

Whenever this starts to occur the orientation on the thumbs should be readjusted from pushing the thumbs straight forward to:  (1) applying a slight sideways pressure towards the right-hand side of the pistol; and, (2) slightly dropping your strong side elbow and very gently twisting your gun hand in towards your body’s centerline.  (This will alleviate the natural tension in the ligaments along the top of your grasping forearm, and greatly reduce the tendency to flinch as you pull the trigger.)  

 

In more than 25 years of teaching people (and certain, already very competent, government shooters) how to more skillfully use a pistol, I have never seen these grip adjustments fail to compensate for the pronounced tendency of ALL PISTOLS to break towards the weakest part of the grasping hand — The fingertips, OK!  

 

I’m a little concerned about a comment in the original question:  If your thumb(s) are, in fact, in contact with the pistol’s slide then STOP doing this.  It is always verboten for a thumb and slide to touch one another.  Everybody, and I do mean everybody, grips and holds a pistol differently.  Right now you need to learn what is the best way for you to place your thumbs, strictly, on a pistol’s frame.  (Thumbs as forward as possible on a semiautomatic; and thumbs downward for a revolver.)  Unless your target strikes begin to indicate that you might need to:  Do NOT consciously push against the side of a pistol’s frame.  (As your familiarity improves, and you learn how to watch your front sight better, this ‘lateral 7 o’clock slippage’ will pass!)  

 

Whenever I grasp any pistol, the first thing I do is to look for that pistol’s ‘sweet spot’.  Then, I’ll try to make my thumb(s) as comfortable as possible.  Next, I’ll think about disarticulating (and correctly placing) my trigger finger, and begin to look for the proper sight picture I know I’ll need in order to repeatedly strike the target’s COM.  

 

After more than five decades of using pistols I, personally, (and quite strongly) prefer to use what I consider to be a more natural — more ‘body friendly’ — ‘REVERSE CHAPMAN STANCE’.  (It’s, almost, the same stance as D.R. Middlebrook’s ‘Fist-Fire Grip’; and, yes, in my old age, I consider D.R. to be something of an authentic pistoleering genius.)  

Edited January 22, 2018 by Arc Angel

[BlueBulletBeaker]

A friend of mine took a Stoeger class last year. It was suggested to him that he not touch the frame with the support thumb to prevent the up/right sight movement. Instead point the thumb up and away (pictured below). I have not tired this myself, but will experiment with it soon.