Ssanders224 Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share Posted January 13, 2018 17 minutes ago, Sarge said: And a cheater. Twice! Meh, set your feelings aside for a minute and let’s look at how I used that word shall we?? I said: “By using your aftermarket magazine release in Production or CO going forward... you are knowingly and willing competing outside of USPSA rules (cheating).” Which is CURRENTLY 100% True. I also said: ”If you have been competing with that magazine release, you have been competing outside of USPSA rules, period. So, basically you were cheating, you just got away with it.” Again, that’s true. However, you declared that you had never used the pistol in a match, so the “IF” in my statement makes it null. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share Posted January 13, 2018 Main point is, we now know what is currently legal, and what is not, as it pertains to this subject. And that was the goal of this whole thing. You guys have a good one! And get those mag releases swapped out if you’re going to use the guns in Production or CO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 4 hours ago, Sarge said: Since there are at least 3 guys watching this conversation with their finger on the ban button I’ll have to, as usual, bow out and just sit here and take it. Give it a rest, Sarge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 4 hours ago, Ssanders224 said: But what would you say to that shooter if he replied “well, I’m not taking it off”? "That's fine - you're allowed to shoot for no score." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 I’ll say it another way.... It is NO different than you, or me, walking up to a new shooter at a match and saying “hey man, your thigh holster isn’t techcially legal”. Its not personal. It’s an observation, tip, help, etc...regarding the shooters equipment. But what would you say to that shooter if he replied “well, I’m not taking it off”? It's legal if they're law enforcement or military at a level 1 match and it's their duty Holster. Even in production. See 5.2.8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 It seems plain to me that the production rules waste a lot of time and energy at NROI. I expect they will change with the next rulebook. This thread is the perfect example of why we need to simplify the production rules.We all agree that there's really no advantage to swapping small parts, so why isn't the discussion about how the rules could be cleaned up? It has to be enforceable.As an RO in not the least bit interested in learning what all the factory parts look like. Do -you- know what all the legal parts look like for the less popular guns? If you can't enforce the rules for the oddball production guns, how it's it equitable to bust the balls of the CZ and Glock guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 54 minutes ago, PatJones said: It's legal if they're law enforcement or military at a level 1 match and it's their duty Holster. Even in production. See 5.2.8. ?♂️ I know. But let’s just assume, for the context of this example that the shooter is not LEO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 47 minutes ago, PatJones said: It seems plain to me that the production rules waste a lot of time and energy at NROI. I expect they will change with the next rulebook. This thread is the perfect example of why we need to simplify the production rules. We all agree that there's really no advantage to swapping small parts, so why isn't the discussion about how the rules could be cleaned up? It has to be enforceable. As an RO in not the least bit interested in learning what all the factory parts look like. Do -you- know what all the legal parts look like for the less popular guns? If you can't enforce the rules for the oddball production guns, how it's it equitable to bust the balls of the CZ and Glock guys? I absolutely agree with you that the production rules shouldn’t be complicated, or be a big ordeal for HQ. That is, in fact one of the points of this whole discussion! So we are on the same page there. The problem is, the rules as pertains to magazine releases (and many other production parts) are extremely simple and clear as written. The verbiage prohibiting aftermarket parts is very concise. Opening up a rule such as this one because it is hard to enforce is a slippery slope, and has the potential to complicate things even further. Should we apply that logic to trigger shoes as well? Slide stops? Etc..? You very quickly begin to lose the spirit of what Production division is. There are many rules in the book that are not easily enforceable, but they are there for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigeric Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 I'm new here trying to learn as I gear up for USPSA. How does this factor into the conversation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 All the proof in the world won’t sway the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 It would be great if Troy would post that to the Rulings page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigeric Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 What do you think would be the reaction if, at a match, someone pulled out Troy's Facebook post to justify an aftermarket extended mag release? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 On 1/19/2018 at 3:56 PM, JAFO said: It would be great if Troy would post that to the Rulings page. Seems like he has changed his position on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooster Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 This thread brings up another item worth mentioning. Aftermarket glock triggers that remove take-up. Gunsmiths remove material from the safety tab on the trigger to bring the trigger closer to the frame thereby removing takeup. This mod is visible if you know what to look for. Is this legal? I have bought a trigger bar that the manufacturer claims is legal for production. After reading the rules I believe this is not the case so I do not use it anymore. But I do know there are quite a few competitors that do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted January 22, 2018 Author Share Posted January 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, rooster said: This thread brings up another item worth mentioning. Aftermarket glock triggers that remove take-up. Gunsmiths remove material from the safety tab on the trigger to bring the trigger closer to the frame thereby removing takeup. This mod is visible if you know what to look for. Is this legal? I have bought a trigger bar that the manufacturer claims is legal for production. After reading the rules I believe this is not the case so I do not use it anymore. But I do know there are quite a few competitors that do. If the trigger safety bar has been modified, and the modification is externally visible, It is NOT legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 On 1/22/2018 at 11:14 AM, bigeric said: What do you think would be the reaction if, at a match, someone pulled out Troy's Facebook post to justify an aftermarket extended mag release? "You're free to take that to arbitration." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mont1120 Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) I have followed this thread and am wondering why the question is so heated. Seems there are some really bad feelings between some shooters on the forum. Anyway, since I just started shooting a Glock Gen4 34 in Carry Optics, I find myself in need of an extended mag release button. I am left handed and have always used my left hand middle finger to release the mag. On the 34 it is difficult to get to the release since it is made so closely to the frame. After researching the rules, the official USPSA 2014 Rulebook, I had found this portion of the Production rules. On Page 83, Section 21.6, this is the quoted rule straight from the Rules book. "A factory/OFM magazine release which extends only the length of the magazine release may be used. A magazine release which provides a larger surface area (paddles, buttons) may only be used if it is an OFM part available on an approved model of gun. • Externally -visible parts from “custom shop” guns will only be considered “ OFM parts” if the custom -shop gun is on the NROI list of approved Production guns." I think, and I am not trying to offend anyone, this clears up the issue. Extensions are legal if this format is followed. Quote A factory/OFM magazine release which extends only the length of the magazine release may be used Edited January 28, 2018 by mont1120 Repeated quotes for some reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Told you they were legal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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