PCC/Rimfire starting position

[Scootertheshooter]

I maybe totally alone on this but I see more and more folks not starting correctly . When shooting PCC or rimfire some shooters think that pointing at the sign/ cone or nome whatever is just a suggestion . They half way point at it to swing to the first target faster . I could be just whining but I would like to see this rule enforced a bit more . JMO

 

 

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[Bullet56A]

We’ve had this issue also. 

Best way I’ve found to remidy it is to caution the shooter and remind him “at the cone” when starting the string. 

Normally it’s a seasoned competitor. 

Tenths add up over a full course of fire. 

 

Also ridiculing them goes a long way ?

 

 

[Scootertheshooter]

Normally it’s a seasoned competitor. 
Tenths add up over a full course of fire. 
 
Also ridiculing them goes a long way [emoji6]
 
 


I agree with the seasoned competitor


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[zzt]

Hit them with a procedural if they don't listen.

[Thomas H]

40 minutes ago, zzt said:

Hit them with a procedural if they don't listen.

 

Procedural how?  If you start them, then they were in the right start position.  If they weren't, and weren't moving, then you shouldn't have started them.  (They can't be creeping if they aren't moving.)

[Pasley]

It seems simple to me.  The RO tells the shooter to aim at the cone.  The shooter then has three options, A. aim at the cone and shoot, B. get mad and go home, C. get a DQ for refusing to comply with the RO and then go home really mad.

[zzt]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

Procedural how?  If you start them, then they were in the right start position.  If they weren't, and weren't moving, then you shouldn't have started them.  (They can't be creeping if they aren't moving.)

 

I assumed creeping.  However, if a shooter was started 'off the flag', they would be assigned a procedural for not following the Written Stage Briefing.  I can't see that happening more than once, because another RO would set things straight. BTW,  I've never seen a RFxx or PCC shooter start 'off the flag', whether I was ROing or not.  What I mostly see is a good shooter squaring up to the first target they will shoot, then swinging the rifle/carbine back to the flag before 'are you ready'.

 

 

[Ming the Merciless]

It's not always intentional.  Most of the time what I've seen is they aim at the cone/flag/starting point and then raise their head to look at the first plate and the gun comes up a little bit.  When it's intentional, they almost always aim somewhere halfway between the starting point and the first plate, never at the starting point.  Either way, I just tell them to aim at the starting point and wait until they do before continuing.

[Thomas H]

5 hours ago, zzt said:

 

I assumed creeping.  However, if a shooter was started 'off the flag', they would be assigned a procedural for not following the Written Stage Briefing.  I can't see that happening more than once, because another RO would set things straight. BTW,  I've never seen a RFxx or PCC shooter start 'off the flag', whether I was ROing or not.  What I mostly see is a good shooter squaring up to the first target they will shoot, then swinging the rifle/carbine back to the flag before 'are you ready'.

 

 

 

I'm thinking that if the shooter "was started off the flag," if they were assigned a procedural they'd call the RM and get that overturned immediately. 

 

if they weren't in the correct start position but the RO started them anyway, then it is a reshoot.  (Just like if, in a USPSA match, the start position was wrists-above-shoulders but they accidentally were started with hands at sides.)  That's not a procedural---nor (in response to Pasley above) is that remotely grounds for a DQ.  An RM wouldn't remotely support that.

 

I've seen it happen a couple of times---the shooter is lined up on the first target, and then while keeping his/her eyes on the target and his head in the same place, swings the gun back to point at the cone, and doesn't get it quite right because he isn't looking at it.  We just say "at the cone" and they fix it, and life goes on.

 

If the RO is starting them otherwise, the RO is doing it wrong. 

 

Now, if a particular competitor has a demonstrated history of always, at all times, starting off the cone, then it might be wandering towards something that requires an official response.  But....we don't have a medium level response to that (we just have a DQ), so chances are, it is just one of those things where the RO just keeps correcting the shooter, and in private later tells the guy to stop being an idiot.

[Hammer002]

For what it's worth, I will explain this.  Also for what it's worth I am GM in both PCC and RFRO, for experience reference.  It's not intentional.  When shooting from a low ready on steel, the method is to put your sight on the plate, get the sight picture, then move the gun to the start position while leaving your head and eyes on the first target.  The gun is unable to be perfectly "aimed" at the flag. And trust me, it's not about gaining tenths of seconds, unless someone is purposely only going halfway or something crazy because when you understand the technique, it's not the distance that's the time factor, it's getting a sight picture on target and a cheek weld if it's a rifle.  I would actually argue the time would be the same ten inches short of the flag, on the flag, or even ten inches past the flag. No one expects the sights to be perfectly aligned on the flag as though if a shot were fired it would be hit.  If you think this, attend a high level match, or at least watch a video.  The idea is to be at a low ready start, not positioned to shoot the starting flag.  I know I am very close to being aligned on the flag, but sometimes it might be an inch or so high, or to one side or the other.  It's not gaining an advantage, it's just cause I'm not aiming, my eyes, head, and body are aligned with the first plate.  If someone is clearly attempting to cheat, hammer em.  I have yet to see it though.  If the shooter is doing what he's supposed to, start the timer.  If he is way off, though the attempt is being made, let him know to correct it, I've been reminded myself.  Anyone who says or tells you there has to be perfect sight alignment on the starting flag is just dead wrong.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is likey what you are seeing is not intentional, so don't treat someone like it is, that makes you a bad RO.  If it is intentional, which I have actually personally never seen, then handle it as such.  This is a skill many don't know, and once they are told, there is a learning process like all skills to be mastered.    thomas explains it well above.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Hammer002

[jkrispies]

2 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

For what it's worth, I will explain this.  Also for what it's worth I am GM in both PCC and RFRO, for experience reference.  It's not intentional.  When shooting from a low ready on steel, the method is to put your sight on the plate, get the sight picture, then move the gun to the start position while leaving your head and eyes on the first target.  The gun is unable to be perfectly "aimed" at the flag. And trust me, it's not about gaining tenths of seconds, unless someone is purposely only going halfway or something crazy because when you understand the technique, it's not the distance that's the time factor, it's getting a sight picture on target and a cheek weld if it's a rifle.  I would actually argue the time would be the same ten inches short of the flag, on the flag, or even ten inches past the flag. No one expects the sights to be perfectly aligned on the flag as though if a shot were fired it would be hit.  If you think this, attend a high level match, or at least watch a video.  The idea is to be at a low ready start, not positioned to shoot the starting flag.  I know I am very close to being aligned on the flag, but sometimes it might be an inch or so high, or to one side or the other.  It's not gaining an advantage, it's just cause I'm not aiming, my eyes, head, and body are aligned with the first plate.  If someone is clearly attempting to cheat, hammer em.  I have yet to see it though.  If the shooter is doing what he's supposed to, start the timer.  If he is way off, though the attempt is being made, let him know to correct it, I've been reminded myself.  Anyone who says or tells you there has to be perfect sight alignment on the starting flag is just dead wrong.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is likey what you are seeing is not intentional, so don't treat someone like it is, that makes you a bad RO.  If it is intentional, which I have actually personally never seen, then handle it as such.  This is a skill many don't know, and once they are told, there is a learning process like all skills to be mastered.    thomas explains it well above.

+1. I’ll second also that the faster start time for GM’s isn’t from being a few inches closer to the first plate, it’s from hours spent specifically practicing an immediate reaction to the beep.  

 

Now, should everyone be on (or nearly on) the flag?  Of course... and It’s the RO’s job to check that the start position is reasonably in place before starting the clock.

 

When I’m RO’ong, do I keep an eye on that?  Sure, and I correct if necessary, but it needs to be egregious for me to go there.  Is it fair for me to mess with the shooter’s mental focus if from my imperfect vantage point (standing left and to the rear of his barrel) he seems off and I jump on him about getting perfectly on the flag?  No, because the benefit of the doubt should go to the shooter especially if there doesn’t appear to be an ill intent involved.   

Edited December 23, 2017 by jkrispies

[Hammer002]

2 hours ago, jkrispies said:

+1. I’ll second also that the faster start time for GM’s isn’t from being a few inches closer to the first plate, it’s from hours spent specifically practicing an immediate reaction to the beep.  

 

Now, should everyone be on (or nearly on) the flag?  Of course... and It’s the RO’s job to check that the start position is reasonably in place before starting the clock.

 

When I’m RO’ong, do I keep an eye on that?  Sure, and I correct if necessary, but it needs to be egregious for me to go there.  Is it fair for me to mess with the shooter’s mental focus if from my imperfect vantage point (standing left and to the rear of his barrel) he seems off and I jump on him about getting perfectly on the flag?  No, because the benefit of the doubt should go to the shooter especially if there doesn’t appear to be an ill intent involved.   

 

Thanks for going into the impeding on the focus point, I wanted to, but thought it might have been too much.  You hit the nail on the head with the whole post.  When I RO, I don't specifically look for it, but it jumps out to me if its a problem. 

 

As an example of what JKrispies is talking about - I shot the NE State this past year.  Had an RO, as nice as he was, that was a bit overzealous.  First, because he had been DQed during the staff shoot for an AD, he was telling us the safety had to be on at all times while not shooting.  I just went with it after he agreed it didn't have to be on while waiting for the beep.  As much of a distraction as his being wrong and imposing such a demand as the RO was, it would have been far more of a distraction to further discuss it.  Although we did iron out in discussion him taking issue with my finger being pressed to the front of (inside) the trigger guard.  Have to make that change now, but wasn't willing to change something like that during a match when I didn't have to.  I tried to take most of it as an opportunity to work on my mental game for overcoming such things, especially the "Are you ready?...Stand byyy(beep)yy."  Yeah.....hate that.  lol. 

 

To our point, he was also very strict on the "aiming" at the start flag.  He travelled with us to each stage and corrected me several times, telling me I was not aiming at the flag with a growing tone as though I was attempting to cheat, even calling it "creeping."  It didn't bother me, or at least I didn't allow it to affect my shooting - although, he didn't seem to like I restarted my pre shot routine and made myself ready again each time he interjected.  Wasn't messing with him, as he seemed to think, but just what is done anytime something out of the ordinary happens.  As I said previously, I am usually right on the flag, but because he took issue so many times, I attempted to make some self evaluation and self correction, however when I did look where I was putting the gun without looking, it seemed on point, so the idea he was out of line again started to creep in.  On one occasion, I sensed him really close to me, and when I turned my head from the plate to my left I was looking at, waiting for the beep, I noticed he was actually leaning into me attempting to look through my optic.  I imagine to see if the dot was on the flag.  This was out of line.  WAY out of line.  I handled it with a joke and some humor and was able to move on without serious conflict.  I shot well that day, so obviously I didn't allow it to bother me, but I cannot say I am that resilient every day.

 

What does this mean?  In the example, the guy was just an every day shooter, as I understand it now, a 3 gunner.  He just didn't know any better.  He wasn't up on the rules. Especially when the argument came up with another competitor as to how many rounds a production gun can have in it  - yeah, complete match stoppage to figure that one out to include tracking down a MD.  I stayed out of that one as not to adversely affect myself after I had been overlooking so much already.  But I still don't think he was acting with malice nor purposely being a range Nazi.  He just didn't know better.  However, with that said, he stood to have a great negative impact on competitors and the match all the same.  I think our squad handled it the best we could, but looking back, it could have been bad.  Nothing adverse happened, which I have personally found can bring out frustration with things that happened previously in bad ways. 

 

This is one of those areas a rule book thumper is going to interpret in black and white as to something should be a specific way and hawk it.  But, in application, and to understand the rule's intent, if we are playing the game right, let it go if the guy is a few inches off.  The rule book even gives varying height measurement acceptability for the flag and there is no rule on what the flag must be, so there is no reason to think its purpose is meant to be an approach of precision.  We are looking for low ready.  It was pointed out earlier the cheater will likely be pointing in the same spot = halfway.  That is an issue.  Hammer it.  Otherwise, make sure we are safe, and as an RO, make sure you are not #1 taking up personal agendas motivated by personal rule interpretation, and #2 adversely affecting the match and its competitors.  I absolutely promise you a good MD at a match with sponsors will NOT take kindly to that.  Obviously enforce the rules, but don't cross the line.  At a club match, give feedback in a way that can help me learn and cause me to re-evaluate if needed without assuming I am trying to cheat.  Nor do I believe there are many others trying.

 

On a side note, in conclusion to the story, after the match in NE, the RO and I were randomly talking.  I think he asked how to shoot faster.  When I explained the technique of keeping the eyes and head on the first plate, something he did not know, he immediately understood the situation better.  He became so apologetic.  We laughed and I told him he was doing his job the best he knew how at the time, but he really took it to heart he might have bothered someone now knowing the real application.  Wound up making a friend in the sport, where it could have easily been otherwise.  

Edited December 23, 2017 by Hammer002

[Thomas H]

10 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

For what it's worth, I will explain this.  Also for what it's worth I am GM in both PCC and RFRO, for experience reference.  It's not intentional.  When shooting from a low ready on steel, the method is to put your sight on the plate, get the sight picture, then move the gun to the start position while leaving your head and eyes on the first target.  The gun is unable to be perfectly "aimed" at the flag. And trust me, it's not about gaining tenths of seconds, unless someone is purposely only going halfway or something crazy because when you understand the technique, it's not the distance that's the time factor, it's getting a sight picture on target and a cheek weld if it's a rifle.  I would actually argue the time would be the same ten inches short of the flag, on the flag, or even ten inches past the flag. No one expects the sights to be perfectly aligned on the flag as though if a shot were fired it would be hit.  If you think this, attend a high level match, or at least watch a video.  The idea is to be at a low ready start, not positioned to shoot the starting flag.  I know I am very close to being aligned on the flag, but sometimes it might be an inch or so high, or to one side or the other.  It's not gaining an advantage, it's just cause I'm not aiming, my eyes, head, and body are aligned with the first plate.  If someone is clearly attempting to cheat, hammer em.  I have yet to see it though.  If the shooter is doing what he's supposed to, start the timer.  If he is way off, though the attempt is being made, let him know to correct it, I've been reminded myself.  Anyone who says or tells you there has to be perfect sight alignment on the starting flag is just dead wrong.

 

I agree with everything you said above, except the part in bold.

 

The shooter should be aimed at the starting flag, not merely in a low ready position.  Because if we had a choice of a "low ready position" we'd be at a low ready exactly below our first target, because moving only moving vertically is faster and more precise than having to move both horizontally and vertically.  Starting at the flag is simply slower.  Much?  No, but it is slower, and in a game where a hundredth of a second can give you a win, that's important.  The flag means it isn't simply a low ready position relative to the targets.  (Matter of fact, one of the interesting things about the RF or PCC divisions is that the flag position for many people changes their shooting order---if is was merely a low ready under their first target, they'd shoot it differently.  But since the flag requires movement in two dimensions to the first target, many people choose their first target on some of the faster stages to minimize the amount of second-dimension movement that needs to be done.)

 

So the idea is to be pointed at the flag.  Off by an inch or two, eh, whatever.  Off by a foot....yeah, that can make a difference.  And if nothing else, everybody should be held to the same standard.  And that flag is a marker.  Sure, there is some variation allowed in where exactly the flag is...but that is the flag, not the shooter's variation.  Every shooter at the match should be starting pointed at the flag, not pointed around the flag.

 

As a CRO, I always do a basic check to see if the shooter is in the correct starting position (whether in USPSA, IPDA, MG, or SC) because that's part of my job.  If they aren't, I wait until they are.  If they don't move, I verbally tell them the correction, and wait for them to get into the start position, whereupon I go back to the "Are you ready?" command. 

 

I don't check to see if they are perfectly on the flag.  I do check to make sure that the firearm is pointing in the right clock direction, and the muzzle is downward toward the low flag.  I don't need to look through their optic, and I don't need to make sure they'd hit the exact middle of the flag.  But the gun does need to be in the direction of the flag.  If it isn't, no big deal...we just fix it. 

 

No reason for that to be called "creeping" or worse yet, have any RO over-react and grumble about a DQ.  Like everything else, we just briefly fix it, and move on.  If multiple times in a row they are noticeably off from the start position, before we get ready for the next string we have a brief talk about it, so they can be a little more careful.  And then life goes on.

 

Ben, if you liked the Nebraska State SC match, you should come to the Great Plains Steel Challenge Championship.  We had 215 guns last year, and we'll probably have more this time.  Shoot up to 4 divisions, $25 for the first division and $15 for each additional one....it'll be on April 14-15 this year. 

[Scootertheshooter]

When I posted this I wasn’t speaking about some shooters being off the flag slightly . There have been occasions where it is not only from string to string but stage to stage . The one or two that comes to mind are GM ‘s too. Some may say that there is not an advantage being off the starting position by 2 feet I disagree . If you let me start between the first plate and the starting cone I would be more than happy to do it. Unfortunately the rules do state you have to be pointing at the marker. FYI I too am a GM in PCC/RFRO. I too start looking at the plate and perhaps might be an inch or two off the marker . I certainly know if I were in the middle of the two.


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[jkrispies]

46 minutes ago, Scootertheshooter said:

When I posted this I wasn’t speaking about some shooters being off the flag slightly . There have been occasions where it is not only from string to string but stage to stage . The one or two that comes to mind are GM ‘s too. Some may say that there is not an advantage being off the starting position by 2 feet I disagree . If you let me start between the first plate and the starting cone I would be more than happy to do it. Unfortunately the rules do state you have to be pointing at the marker. FYI I too am a GM in PCC/RFRO. I too start looking at the plate and perhaps might be an inch or two off the marker . I certainly know if I were in the middle of the two.


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Yes, halfway to the start plate should be addressed by the RO without question.   

[Hammer002]

6 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

I agree with everything you said above, except the part in bold.

 

The shooter should be aimed at the starting flag, not merely in a low ready position.  Because if we had a choice of a "low ready position" we'd be at a low ready exactly below our first target, because moving only moving vertically is faster and more precise than having to move both horizontally and vertically.  Starting at the flag is simply slower.  Much?  No, but it is slower, and in a game where a hundredth of a second can give you a win, that's important.  The flag means it isn't simply a low ready position relative to the targets.  (Matter of fact, one of the interesting things about the RF or PCC divisions is that the flag position for many people changes their shooting order---if is was merely a low ready under their first target, they'd shoot it differently.  But since the flag requires movement in two dimensions to the first target, many people choose their first target on some of the faster stages to minimize the amount of second-dimension movement that needs to be done.)

 

So the idea is to be pointed at the flag.  Off by an inch or two, eh, whatever.  Off by a foot....yeah, that can make a difference.  And if nothing else, everybody should be held to the same standard.  And that flag is a marker.  Sure, there is some variation allowed in where exactly the flag is...but that is the flag, not the shooter's variation.  Every shooter at the match should be starting pointed at the flag, not pointed around the flag.

 

As a CRO, I always do a basic check to see if the shooter is in the correct starting position (whether in USPSA, IPDA, MG, or SC) because that's part of my job.  If they aren't, I wait until they are.  If they don't move, I verbally tell them the correction, and wait for them to get into the start position, whereupon I go back to the "Are you ready?" command. 

 

I don't check to see if they are perfectly on the flag.  I do check to make sure that the firearm is pointing in the right clock direction, and the muzzle is downward toward the low flag.  I don't need to look through their optic, and I don't need to make sure they'd hit the exact middle of the flag.  But the gun does need to be in the direction of the flag.  If it isn't, no big deal...we just fix it. 

 

No reason for that to be called "creeping" or worse yet, have any RO over-react and grumble about a DQ.  Like everything else, we just briefly fix it, and move on.  If multiple times in a row they are noticeably off from the start position, before we get ready for the next string we have a brief talk about it, so they can be a little more careful.  And then life goes on.

 

Ben, if you liked the Nebraska State SC match, you should come to the Great Plains Steel Challenge Championship.  We had 215 guns last year, and we'll probably have more this time.  Shoot up to 4 divisions, $25 for the first division and $15 for each additional one....it'll be on April 14-15 this year. 

I wanted to make it last year and wasn't able to. It's my main priority this year. Everybody speaks very highly of that range, steel and uspsa.  Hope to make both this year.  I am going to be waiting for 12:01 Jan 1st to register, pay, and squad so I can hopefully shoot sunday afternoon!  Maybe even start sunday morning if they talk me into shooting more than 2 guns.  Should be at least a couple of us from here.  Hope to meet you.  And for clarity, they did an amazing job in grand island, this was just a small example of things that go on at every match that lended itself to an example here.

 

I agree with everything you said.  To clarify, I love the center point start for the same things you mention here and you are right, just saying low ready assumes below a target.  When I said low ready, I meant in the center.   

Edited December 23, 2017 by Hammer002

[Hammer002]

2 hours ago, Scootertheshooter said:

When I posted this I wasn’t speaking about some shooters being off the flag slightly . There have been occasions where it is not only from string to string but stage to stage . The one or two that comes to mind are GM ‘s too. Some may say that there is not an advantage being off the starting position by 2 feet I disagree . If you let me start between the first plate and the starting cone I would be more than happy to do it. Unfortunately the rules do state you have to be pointing at the marker. FYI I too am a GM in PCC/RFRO. I too start looking at the plate and perhaps might be an inch or two off the marker . I certainly know if I were in the middle of the two.


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I don't think I took your halfway reference literal enough and didn't mean to discount your point. If as a spectator, 10 feet away I can see the shooter isn't pointed at the flag he's doing it wrong.  If it jumps out and grabs my attention as an RO, he's doing it wrong.  And yes, it's aggravating to see.  I simply wanted to point out to some of the following posts it's likely not malicious, as they were seeming to be out for blood.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Hammer002

[Scootertheshooter]

I m not asking the RO to look through the shooters sights . If it’s just plainly obvious it needs to be addressed . On another point ( and again these are not the norm) SOME RO ‘s get intimidated by good shooters and MAY not correct them figuring they must know best . The reason I say this is because it has happened to me personally . They may not want to call a miss because they feel the shooter must know he hit it. Please do not think I’m crapping on RO I do my share of ROing . I know mistakes are made and I’m sure in my favor at times but I have called no hits on myself . Sorry if sound like a Debbie downer I’m not trying to be just venting a bit from Christmas shopping [emoji15]


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[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, Scootertheshooter said:

I m not asking the RO to look through the shooters sights . If it’s just plainly obvious it needs to be addressed . On another point ( and again these are not the norm) SOME RO ‘s get intimidated by good shooters and MAY not correct them figuring they must know best . The reason I say this is because it has happened to me personally . They may not want to call a miss because they feel the shooter must know he hit it. Please do not think I’m crapping on RO I do my share of ROing . I know mistakes are made and I’m sure in my favor at times but I have called no hits on myself . Sorry if sound like a Debbie downer I’m not trying to be just venting a bit from Christmas shopping


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Oh, I think there are many good shooters who do that on purpose, in many ways, especially if something is called.  If you asked me, I would say that's the worst of our sport.  Whether I'm shooting my strong division or such as just starting my recent RFPO adventure, I try to have the least ego as possible and follow the weakest of ROs.  The challenge comes when they are wrong, because the same applies to ROs who's intent is to be intimidating.  Many times they are a low level shooter in this case. If someone doesn't know the rules, I usually try to just get by.  If it advesrely affects me and a correction is needed, in my opinion, this is where some real skill testing comes along. I need to interact with the person to a positive end for both our benefits and easily move on. Some ROs are of the opinion the title makes them right.  I absolutely agree social intimidation has no place in our sport, either by shooters, ROs, or even spectators.  On of the reasons I have trouble getting my daughter to compete is because she is so intimidated by all the men.  Most people in our sport will be the exact opposite of what she would expect, but I can name a few that walk around just our local clubs that could use a serious attitude adjustment and a reclarification on their own self importance.  In the end, I think most of us here agree on what is needed.  I just try to point out taking one moment of patience on both sides to stop yourself from assuming the worst and pursuing the situation as such.  Meaning, don't so readily assume someone is malicious in intent either as a shooter or RO.  If they are, I try to just get by as a shooter without shaking my mental game.  It's far better to play along than get worked up.  As an RO with a negative shooter, not engaging and humor are my front line.  I'm just happy to see other people noticing some of the same things and are of like minded in approach.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Hammer002

[stick]

On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 4:03 PM, Pasley said:

It seems simple to me.  The RO tells the shooter to aim at the cone.  The shooter then has three options, A. aim at the cone and shoot, B. get mad and go home, C. get a DQ for refusing to comply with the RO and then go home really mad.

sounds good to me!

[zzt]

I think a lot of this kind of thing will clear up with the new rules and RO training, especially if they do have an SC RO training class.  I'll say I have seen a huge difference year over year.  Last year, everything was USPSA commands and rules.  Some of the ROs had never read the SC rules.  At one match I was shooting RFPO with a 22 conversion on my 1911.  I carried it holstered.  I was told I had to follow the 'hammer down...' command, even though it was a 22.  I explained that was not the case in SC.  It went all the way to the MD, who said we follow USPSA rules and you have to drop the hammer.  This year there was none of that.  The only confusion i saw was trigger finger inside the guard on rimfire.  It is permitted until Jan, but some ROs did not know that.  Other than that and some confusion about PCCs being carried 'generally upright' and the 180 rule, everyone was spot on, .

[nickbfishn]

Here’s a thought (that I’m sure will trigger more thoughts ?) why not do something that will take all the guess work out of correct aiming for starting position.

 

Two ideas:

1 - have the start cone become the first target for any rimfire or pcc. Shoot that thing in the middle first, then onto the array.

 

Or 

 

2 - mandate lasers for all rimfire and pcc’s! Sure I supposed gamers would tweak the laser a little left or a little down to gain a few inches, but it would still be rather tacticool for everyone to have lasers! ?

 

seriously though, I think RO’s (like myself) just need to be mindful and take a position behind the shooter at an angle that will allow them to see if the barrel is aiming at the cone/sign/stick/hubcap etc... and if it’s not pointed in that direction, don’t start the stage. I think of the starting sign as a strike zone in baseball. We all generally know where it is, but it usually varies a few inches depending on the batter (shooter) and the umpire (RO). If a ball is thrown on the edge of the strike zone sometimes it’s a strike (standby...beep) and sometimes it’s a ball (shooter, aim at the hubcap). If it’s a wild pitch and the umpire calls a strike, shame on him for not making the right call; same thing for the RO who doesn’t correct a wildly off target starting position prior to the beep.

[1911luvr]

The way to solve this easily is to adopt the USPSA PCC stock on belt starting position. I don't prefer it, but if everyone starts that way it is fair.


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[Thomas H]

10 hours ago, 1911luvr said:

The way to solve this easily is to adopt the USPSA PCC stock on belt starting position. I don't prefer it, but if everyone starts that way it is fair.
 

 

A little harder to do with rimfire pistols. 

[Scootertheshooter]

The rule/s doesn’t need to be changed just enforced .


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