DNRO Clarification on Inside/Outside Shooting Area

[nuidad]

Can someone help me find the most recent and definitive DNROI ruling or clarification regarding starting inside/outside the shooting area.  I am specifically looking for clarification of whether or not a competitor may start while standing on the fault lines in a classifier.  The start position reads:  

 

"...standing in box A, facing down range..."

 

 

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, nuidad said:

Can someone help me find the most recent and definitive DNROI ruling or clarification regarding starting inside/outside the shooting area.  I am specifically looking for clarification of whether or not a competitor may start while standing on the fault lines in a classifier.  The start position reads:  

 

"...standing in box A, facing down range..."

 

 

 

there is nothing to clarify. fault lines are inside the shooting area by definition. In particular, I stand on the fault lines for classifiers with barricades so i can move side to side more quickly.

[nuidad]

Thanks Moto.  I agree.

 

I believe I have read a "ruling/clarification" from DNROI.  Do you know of one, and where I could access it?

 

(It appears that the new USPSA website links in the BE forum are no longer usable, which has made my search very frustrating)

Edited December 19, 2017 by nuidad

[ChuckS]

8 minutes ago, nuidad said:

Thanks Moto.  I agree. 

 

I believe I have read a "ruling/clarification" from DNROI.  Do you know of one, and where I could access it?

 

(It appears that the new USPSA website links in the BE forum are no longer usable, which has made my search very frustrating)

try https://uspsa.org/nroi/rulings

or email:

Terri Wilson
NROI Coordinator

Terri@uspsa.org

[nuidad]

13 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

try https://uspsa.org/nroi/rulings

or email:

Terri Wilson
NROI Coordinator

Terri@uspsa.org

Thanks Chuck. 

 

Nothing at  https://uspsa.org/nroi/rulings

 

I will try Terri@uspsa.org if no one comes up with a quick reference.

[Sarge]

Standing on fault lines has always been acceptable. Maybe you are thinking of the odd DNROI opinion last year about starting outside the shooting area?

[nuidad]

Thanks,

 

Thought I saw a reference to starting on fault lines in the statement I'm looking for.  Maybe I'm having a "moment".

[Sarge]

7 minutes ago, nuidad said:

Thanks,

 

Thought I saw a reference to starting on fault lines in the statement I'm looking for.  Maybe I'm having a "moment".

Ha! I have several “moments” a day!

[JAFO]

I don't recall any rulings about standing on fault lines.  Like Moto said, it's always been allowed since they are part of the shooting area.  There was an email or something a while ago along the lines of having one foot in/one foot out was starting "outside the shooting area", but I don't see a ruling for it.

[StealthyBlagga]

It seems there are lots of "Troy opinions" posted online, but IIRC only the official rulings posted on the website have force of law outside of any matches Troy is the RM at.

 

In the case of the specific question at hand here, fault lines have always been "inside the shooting area".

[teros135]

7 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

It seems there are lots of "Troy opinions" posted online, but IIRC only the official rulings posted on the website have force of law outside of any matches Troy is the RM at.

 

In the case of the specific question at hand here, fault lines have always been "inside the shooting area".

 

Published on the USPSA website or in Front Sight magazine (in the NROI column).

 

 Also in the Multibriefs?

[race1911]

...NOTE: difference between USPSA and IPSC rules on this:   if you're shooting an IPSC match it IS against the rules to start inside the box with one foot on the fault line.....after the start signal you are still considered within the shooting area if you have feet on fault lines (as long as you aren't also touching the ground outside the shooting area)

Edited December 23, 2017 by race1911

[ccarpediem]

13 minutes ago, race1911 said:

...NOTE: difference between USPSA and IPSC rules on this:   if you're shooting an IPSC match it IS against the rules to start inside the box with one foot on the fault line.....after the start signal you are still considered within the shooting area if you have feet on fault lines (as long as you aren't also touching the ground outside the shooting area)

 

I don't believe that is true.  I pretty much exclusively compete and RO IPSC matches and I don't believe you will find any rule to support that. I'm somewhat new (4-5 years) so not sure of the history of rules.  I've had a couple cases of ROs trying to enforce that (even one at the latest WS).  I don't argue while I'm on the line (as don't want the distraction), but every time I've asked for the rule after my run they cannot find it and agree it should be allowed.  I've hit a number of cases like this with older ROs so I'm guessing they don't always stay up to date with latest rule changes and this may be a case of that.

[race1911]

I have been RO and CRO mainly IPSC (but also USPSA) for almost 20 years....this specific example was brought up to the Cdn NROI due to an instance at 2017 Cdn Nationals where on one stage where a competitor started with one foot on the fault line after it was common understanding in most provinces this was not allowed...........an email was sent to all the Regions in Canada from Jim Smith Cdn NROI President in August/2017 specifically stating that starting with one foot on the fault line was not allowed and for the Section Co-ordinators to notify all their Range Officers to comply

Edited December 23, 2017 by race1911

[ccarpediem]

Interesting to hear Canada is doing that.  When you have to enforce, what rule are you trying to use?

[race1911]

...the directive came from Cdn NROI Presidnet Jim Smith for all Section Co-Ordinators to notify their range staff after the controversy at Nationals ..............(as an addition Vince Pinto also has stated similarly in IPSC Global Village after discussions and recommended that in the Written Stage Briefing "in" or "within" fault lines does not mean starting with a foot on the fault line and it would be best to use the phrase "wholly within the fault lines" )

Edited December 23, 2017 by race1911

[ccarpediem]

Ahhhh ,that makes sense.  So not a specific rule, but can be part of the interpretation of the WSB and can use 10.2.2 for failing to comply with WSB if enforcement is required.  Interesting to know, thx!

[Thomas H]

2 hours ago, teros135 said:

 

Published on the USPSA website or in Front Sight magazine (in the NROI column).

 

 Also in the Multibriefs?

 

That right there is a good question.  Are the Multibriefs going to be considered the same as "published in Front Sight"?  (....or are we going to see the same explanation then published in the next Front Sight? )

[nuidad]

On 12/23/2017 at 11:02 AM, race1911 said:

..."in" or "within" fault lines does not mean starting with a foot on the fault line and it would be best to use the phrase "wholly within the fault lines" )

 

But consider:  A fault line, according to USPSA  definitions, is a "...physical reference line in a COF which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area."  When you look at the classifier drawings the fault line is shown as an actual line, with only a single dimension, presumably defining the outside of the physical structure.  Therefore "wholly within the fault lines,"  could, and in the context of classifiers, should be interpreter as within the line that is defined by the outside of the physical structure.  That way, the area available to all competitors, regardless of the dimensions of the materials used to construct the fault line, is the same universally....very important in a classifier.  So if a classifier WSB said "... standing wholly within the fault lines,"  I would expect to be able to stand on the wood structure.  

[race1911]

already stated by myself:    USPSA allows start with foot on fault line, IPSC does not (especially if WSB states wholly within)

[nuidad]

1 hour ago, race1911 said:

already stated by myself:    USPSA allows start with foot on fault line, IPSC does not (especially if WSB states wholly within)

race...didn't mean to imply you were mistaken about USPSA fault line rules.  What I wanted to point out is that the language that is often times used to require a competitor to NOT stand on the fault lines ("...wholly within the fault lines,")  might be inadequate.  When the WSB says that, I comply to avoid conflict as do most.

[Sarge]

3 minutes ago, nuidad said:

race...didn't mean to imply you were mistaken about USPSA fault line rules.  What I wanted to point out is that the language that is often times used to require a competitor to NOT stand on the fault lines ("...wholly within the fault lines,")  might be inadequate.  When the WSB says that, I comply to avoid conflict as do most.

Agreed. In my mind wholly within the fault lines means I can stand on a fault line. Think of this: “engage targets as they become visible from within the shooting area.” You can stand on a fault line then and are “within” the fault lines.