What is Engaging a Target?

[nuidad]

The WSB says the box must be on the barrel before engaging the final target.  If the barrel upon which the competitor placed the box affords a view of an array of 3 poppers only, which the competitor has already successfully engaged (all are down), can firing off a last round in the general direction of those downed poppers be considered legitimately "engaging" a target.  Is the competitor subject to a procedural penalty for not following the WSB?

[GrumpyOne]

Interesting. If it were  paper target, I would say yes, as you could be making up a bad hit. But on a popper that is already down, it is no longer available, so how could you engage it? I could be wrong though...

[Kraj]

If you already engaged it once would it matter if you shot at it again? Even if paper? "before engaging final target" so before the first shot at the last target? 

[nuidad]

42 minutes ago, Kraj said:

If you already engaged it once would it matter if you shot at it again? Even if paper? "before engaging final target" so before the first shot at the last target? 

Yes...If the WSB said "...box on barrel before the last shot,"  I believe you could throw a shot in the direction of a paper target or even an array of all fallen poppers and be in compliance.  10.2.7 doesn't mention engagement so we may be on our own with this ruling.

 

10.2.7

A competitor who fails to shoot at any scoring target with at least one

round will incur one procedural penalty per target,

Edited December 16, 2017 by nuidad

[RJH]

I am thinking paper OK, steel that is already down, penalty.  Unless there is some other issue that makes the stage illegal to begin with. If a steel is down, I don't see how it could be engaged, same if it was down before the start beep.  It is why steel not set is a reshoot , but paper not taped is not necessarily a reshoot

[Hammer002]

Maybe I am not following, but the WSB may not (except a level I match and its a bad practice) dictate from where targets are shot.  Someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but the rules are if you can see it, you can shoot it.  So, as long as the poppers were not within DQ distance, if they could be seen from another portion of the stage, they can be shot from there.  Sounds like the stage designer was saying "you can only shoot the poppers from here" even though they can be seen from elsewhere.  As far as I know, that's a no go.  Level 1 can do it as I have been told whenever someone designs shady stages, but its just bad form.

 

To answer the specific question at hand, what is engaged, I have always know it to be as OP described, a shot fired at it - whether hit or not.  Comes up in many different areas.  Maybe one of the rule lawyers will come in with their copy and paste skills and quote the rules specifically, but that's my understanding.  This would be a difficult one, because there is no target to engage.  If you legally shot the popper from elsewhere and the RO attempted to apply a procedural, I would argue stage malfunction at a minimum due to no target present to engage.  It is a bad stage design with a bad WSB, so if you gamed it, so to speak, not sure there is reason to penalize.  The slope becomes the WSB/stage designer telling shooters how to shoot the stage.

[stick]

I'm confused!  Do you have a layout of the stage?  Is this a USPSA stage?  I guess I'm confused about the box on barrel part.  I've never encountered anything like that before. 

[nuidad]

Hammer:  No dictating where any targets are required to be shot.  The COF requires that the poppers be shot from the downrange-right location because that is the only view of that array.  If the shooter chooses to place the box on the barrel at this location he has to have it in place before engaging the last target as per the WSB.  Since only poppers are present he will need to have one available after he places the box on the barrel.  If he has  already downed all four poppers prior to placing the box on the barrel he will have to go to a location with a paper target and engage it or take a procedural penalty.  He can avoid that by putting BOB, then engaging last popper.  The question is, can he lob a shot in the direction of downed poppers to avoid the procedural?

 

Hope the attachment comes through.  You'll notice there are three boxes and four barrels.  Shooter has to decide where and if to put boxes on barrels.  Top shooters will probably choose to ignore boxes completely.  I'll place the downrange-right  box so it takes about 4-6 seconds to get the box on the barrel and get back inside the shooting area before engaging last target.  Many may choose to ignore that box and take the procedural.  The other two boxes will take 3-4 seconds to place box on barrel.

 

12-17-17 BOB.pdf

Edited December 16, 2017 by nuidad

[Sarge]

Ignoring all the “bad stage design” blah blah blah, if Steel is down it’s not a target.

[teros135]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Ignoring all the “bad stage design” blah blah blah, if Steel is down it’s not a target.

 

Finally, a concise answer.  Let's all go to the range and waste some ammo ... er, practice!  

[nuidad]

Thanks all. 

 

Sarge and all:  I would like to hear your critique of the stage design.  I'm here to learn.  We don't get a chance to hear from shooters with your experience too often out here in the middle of the ocean.  BTW  we are the southern-most USPSA match in the US (everything here is the southern-most in the US).

Edited December 16, 2017 by nuidad

[Sarge]

55 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

Finally, a concise answer.  Let's all go to the range and waste some ammo ... er, practice!  

I’d be in the wasting ammo category!?

[Sarge]

48 minutes ago, nuidad said:

Thanks all. 

 

Sarge and all:  I would like to hear your critique of the stage design.  I'm here to learn.  We don't get a chance to hear from shooters with your experience too often out here in the middle of the ocean.  BTW  we are the southern-most USPSA match in the US (everything here is the southern-most in the US).

Looking at the stage design, for the sake of avoiding arguments, I would move the barrel near the steel to the right rear corner of the front shooting area. Then move that basket to the area forward of the middle box. This way they shoot, grab first basket, put bob, shoot, grab basket, put bob, move, etc. in short, no basket near steel to cause issues.

[mreed911]

I'd just ignore every bin, save the time on movement and take the single procedural at the end.  That's just me though.

[Sarge]

21 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

I'd just ignore every bin, save the time on movement and take the single procedural at the end.  That's just me though.

Good point. In that case make it one per basket.

[nuidad]

11 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

I'd just ignore every bin, save the time on movement and take the single procedural at the end.  That's just me though.

I suspect that's what most will do even though there is a procedural for each box not on a barrel (I intended that and clarified that in the WSB following your comment).  Thanks.

 

It won't be advantageous for most B and above shooters to spend any time on the boxes.

[mreed911]

7 hours ago, nuidad said:

I suspect that's what most will do even though there is a procedural for each box not on a barrel (I intended that and clarified that in the WSB following your comment).  Thanks.

 

It won't be advantageous for most B and above shooters to spend any time on the boxes.

 

Now I'd simply skip all three boxes and one of the final steel (the "final" target).  Since I didn't actually engage the final target I'd take the one procedural for FTSA and the lost points (-15: 10 for procedural/FTSA and 5 for the lost points I could have had) vs. three procedurals for the box placements (-30), most likely.

Edited December 17, 2017 by mreed911

[nuidad]

5 hours ago, mreed911 said:

 

Now I'd simply skip all three boxes and one of the final steel (the "final" target).  Since I didn't actually engage the final target I'd take the one procedural for FTSA and the lost points (-15: 10 for procedural/FTSA and 5 for the lost points I could have had) vs. three procedurals for the box placements (-30), most likely.

 

Wait...You've already engaged the final target...that would be the last target you engaged and the boxes weren't on the barrel so now you get an FTSA and three procedurals...someone help me here!.  Does the WSB need to read, "All boxes must be on barrels before the competitor's final target engagement." ?

 

That's what I did.  Match in the morning.  We'll see how it rolls.

Edited December 17, 2017 by nuidad
Biffed it

[ChuckS]

JMHO: If you spend your energies on developing shooting challenges and not prop challenges (AKA Monkey Motions) you won't have to spend a week screwing around with the WSB to *try* to get the shooters to do what you want, you will have a nicer week and the shooters will be grateful.

[Nathanb]

And far less gaming of stages. You just had two different ways to game it with different outcomes. Create stages that can be shot multiple ways and not the way you see it in your head. I can’t count the number of stages that I thought I knew how to shoot the best and hen watched someone shoot it completely different than I imagined it and smoke it. 

[Nik Habicht]

If it says prior to engaging last target, and all targets have been engaged before the box hits the barrel, then there's really no way to shoot your way out of the penalty, right?

 

You'd need one target available, that's never been shot at.....

 

Were I designing a stage like that, I'd try to give competitors options - and one of the options might be taking the penalty......

[Nik Habicht]

12 hours ago, nuidad said:

 

Wait...You've already engaged the final target...that would be the last target you engaged and the boxes weren't on the barrel so now you get an FTSA and three procedurals...someone help me here!.  Does the WSB need to read, "All boxes must be on barrels before the competitor's final target engagement." ?

 

That's what I did.  Match in the morning.  We'll see how it rolls.

Nope.  If the competitor never fires a round at the final piece of steel, he never engaged the last target, therefore the box on barrel penalties are off the table.  He takes a miss penalty for the steel, and that's it.....

 

....and you can't really write your way out of it, without violating freestyle.....

 

A good test for the scorekeeping: Shooters fires a single round and experiences a jam that takes more than two minutes to clear.  You need to score the stage, so you record the time, any hit, and misses and FTE penalties for anything not engaged.  You can't assess penalties for not moving boxes to barrels, because the shooter hadn't yet engaged his final target.

 

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, ChuckS said:

JMHO: If you spend your energies on developing shooting challenges and not prop challenges (AKA Monkey Motions) you won't have to spend a week screwing around with the WSB to *try* to get the shooters to do what you want, you will have a nicer week and the shooters will be grateful.

Much truth here. Just build a good challenge with options and toss in some table starts, unloaded starts, seated starts, etc for variety. 

[teros135]

19 minutes ago, Nik Habicht said:

Nope.  If the competitor never fires a round at the final piece of steel, he never engaged the last target, therefore the box on barrel penalties are off the table.  He takes a miss penalty for the steel, and that's it.....

 

....and you can't really write your way out of it, without violating freestyle.....

 

A good test for the scorekeeping: Shooters fires a single round and experiences a jam that takes more than two minutes to clear.  You need to score the stage, so you record the time, any hit, and misses and FTE penalties for anything not engaged.  You can't assess penalties for not moving boxes to barrels, because the shooter hadn't yet engaged his final target.

 

 

This convoluted thinking is what we end up with when we design convoluted stages with time-waster moves and "trick" props.  Just the thought of what "before engaging the last target" might mean boggles the mind - is it "the final target that hasn't been shot at yet on the stage" or "the last target the shooter actually shot at" or "the last target the shooter shot at and actually hit" (in the case of steel). 

 

I figure that anybody who bypasses the boxes-on-barrels should get a penalty for each one, regardless of whatever dodges or tricks (i.e., gaming) he pulls (and have to balance the penalties against running the stage really fast) - but how do you say that in the WSB? 

 

I'm going to go take a Tums and try to solve a Rubik's Cube.  It's easier. 

 

[mreed911]

14 hours ago, nuidad said:

 

Wait...You've already engaged the final target...that would be the last target you engaged and the boxes weren't on the barrel

 

Nope, that would be the target I left standing... the final target.

 

14 hours ago, nuidad said:

Does the WSB need to read, "All boxes must be on barrels before the competitor's final target engagement." ?

 

That's what I did.  Match in the morning.  We'll see how it rolls.

 

I'd look to make sure I wasn't accidentally shooting an IDPA match... and I'd wonder if my concealment vest was required.