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If Finished perceived AD, is it a DQ??


JohnStewart

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I would think that the trigger pull during ICHDH (being a deliberate action following an RO instruction) would be treated differently from a shot fired during ULSC (e.g., the OP situation of a bobbled slide rack resulting in an involuntary gripping of the gun and accidental trigger pull).  However, the rules seem pretty clear that a fired shot is always a DQ if you are in the "If clear, hammer down, holster" portion of the range commands.

 

8.3.7 "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster" or "If Clear, Cylinder Closed, Holster" for revolvers only – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows:

8.3.7.1 Self-loaders – release the slide and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer or decocker, if any).

8.3.7.2 Revolvers – close the empty cylinder (without touching the hammer, if any).

8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun.

8.3.7.4 If the gun does not prove to be clear, the Range Officer will resume the commands from Rule 8.3.6 (also see Rule 10.4.3).

 

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

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On 1/12/2018 at 9:29 AM, Thomas H said:

 

I'm just still wanting to know how, when someone lifts the gun, deliberately points it in a safe direction, and pulls the trigger firing a shot (while not performing any other action on the gun), you are saying it is "while unloading."

 

if you deliberately point it in a safe direction while not expecting a shot to fire (i.e. not pointed at a target, not aiming at a target), it is clearly and obviously part of the unloading process, and a DQ.

 

OTOH, if you stop the unloading process to aim at a target, and fire a deliberate shot, that is clearly NOT part of the unloading process. I don't know how to make it any more clear to you. The key is that a deliberate aimed shot requires you to interrupt the unloading process and return to shooting.

 

I get it.

 

DNROI gets it.

 

I've seen both versions happen in real life, and it's not hard to tell the difference most of the time. Obviously, if you *can't* tell the difference, you can't make the call. A man's gotta know his limitations.

Edited by motosapiens
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58 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

if you deliberately point it in a safe direction while not expecting a shot to fire (i.e. not pointed at a target, not aiming at a target), it is clearly and obviously part of the unloading process, and a DQ.

 

OTOH, if you stop the unloading process to aim at a target, and fire a deliberate shot, that is clearly NOT part of the unloading process. I don't know how to make it any more clear to you. The key is that a deliberate aimed shot requires you to interrupt the unloading process and return to shooting.

 

I get it.

 

DNROI gets it.

 

I've seen both versions happen in real life, and it's not hard to tell the difference most of the time. Obviously, if you *can't* tell the difference, you can't make the call. A man's gotta know his limitations.

? well said

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21 minutes ago, OPENB said:

So, if at ICHDH, why not just take a two hand hold, aim at a target, every single time. If it goes off, you can say you meant to engage the target. Cheap insurance against a DQ

The rules say any shot fired during loading, reloading and unloading. You must put the magazine back in gun if you want to re-engage targets to complete the reloading process. 

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57 minutes ago, OPENB said:

So, if at ICHDH, why not just take a two hand hold, aim at a target, every single time. If it goes off, you can say you meant to engage the target. Cheap insurance against a DQ

Why not just make sure a 110%the pistol is unloaded? That seems like the best way after all it is not a race to IFULASC and ICHDH and it doesn’t add to your hit factor.

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Well that could be said FOR THIS WHOLE THREAD. Thought we were discussing some ridiculous "what if."  I've seen this happen 1-2 times in 22 years. Do we actually have to spell out "take your time & unload the damn gun correctly?

 

Show the rule where you have to put a mag back in to engage? That's dumb. 

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4 hours ago, OPENB said:

So, if at ICHDH, why not just take a two hand hold, aim at a target, every single time. If it goes off, you can say you meant to engage the target. Cheap insurance against a DQ

 

Because any shot fired after ICHDH is given is automatically a DQ.  

 

Let's stop trying to "game" everything, shall we?  (or talk it to death :lol: ...)

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23 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

if you deliberately point it in a safe direction while not expecting a shot to fire (i.e. not pointed at a target, not aiming at a target), it is clearly and obviously part of the unloading process, and a DQ.

 

OTOH, if you stop the unloading process to aim at a target, and fire a deliberate shot, that is clearly NOT part of the unloading process. I don't know how to make it any more clear to you. The key is that a deliberate aimed shot requires you to interrupt the unloading process and return to shooting.

 

I get it.

 

DNROI gets it.

 

I've seen both versions happen in real life, and it's not hard to tell the difference most of the time. Obviously, if you *can't* tell the difference, you can't make the call. A man's gotta know his limitations.

 

So you are saying the exact same sequence of actions, (of dropping a magazine, then pointing a gun in a safe direction, and then deliberately pulling the trigger) is perfectly okay and safe in one case, but a DQ offense in the other.


Ok.  I strongly disagree.  Especially since if you are using the definition of "unloading process" to make a case for a DQ in the one case, but then say that when the exact same thing happens in another case, the shooter has "stopped the unloading process" which is apparently something we can do, even though the rule doesn't say it---but we've made that particular distinction because it obviously isn't a DQ and we needed a justification for it even though the rulebook definition says something completely different.

It looks to me like trying to find a way to DQ someone when they are performing an action that doesn't rate a DQ.  After all, firing a shot isn't prohibited until ICHDH. And before that time, the shooter is not going to be DQed for firing a shot in a safe direction while not moving while not performing any other action on the gun---except now in this special case in which we take the same actions performed in two different situations, and say that one of them is "during unloading" though no actions on the firearm are occurring.

I have seen both versions happen in real life.  And yes, I can tell the difference.  The thing is, with me, since they haven't performed any unsafe actions it shouldn't be a DQ for any form or sub-category of unsafe gun handling, and since they aren't performing any sort of firearm manipulation other than deliberately pulling the trigger while the firearm is pointed in a safe direction, it can't be during unloading....since we already let people do the exact same thing at other times during the stage.

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

So you are saying the exact same sequence of actions, (of dropping a magazine, then pointing a gun in a safe direction, and then deliberately pulling the trigger) is perfectly okay and safe in one case, but a DQ offense in the other.


Ok.  I strongly disagree. 

 

 

 

yep. thats pretty much what i am saying, although it's really not the 'exact' same actions if you are obviously surprised when the gun goes off, or not aiming at a target.

 

I don't really care if you disagree. If you are not capable of discerning between the 2 situations, don't make the call. If you do something unsafe and get called on it and don't like it, arb it. I'm comfortable using DNROI's guidance, and my observations and experience to make a call.

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21 hours ago, revoman said:

Why not just make sure a 110%the pistol is unloaded? That seems like the best way after all it is not a race to IFULASC and ICHDH and it doesn’t add to your hit factor.

 

+1. And if you have your head up your azz someday, and cook off an AD, just suck it up, take your medicine, and try to be safer and more attentive in the future.

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On 11/30/2017 at 12:15 PM, mwray said:

Probably the easiest way to tell if it was intentional or not is, did the target need to be shot again. If not did this supposedly AD happen to improve his hits on said target. If not “sir I hate to inform you that you are done for the day”

 

I've made up alpha's with alphas before, so I view this is irrelevant.

 

Nobody fires the gun with the hand over the slide, that is quite clearly an attempt to unload.  DQ in my opinion.

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On 11/30/2017 at 10:45 AM, JohnStewart said:

During this process, the shooters reaction included him returning his finger inside the trigger guard, squeezing the trigger and firing a round - directly into the target. 

It seems from this statement, that the finger was outside the trigger guard while operating the slide and the finger was placed back on the trigger in order to fire the shot into a target. I am certainly no expert here, but I don't think it should be a DQ.

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