If Finished perceived AD, is it a DQ??

[Brooke]

Assuming that none of the specified DQ's in 10.4 were violated, this is not a DQ even if the shooter admits he was unloading. The COF is not complete until "If clear, hammer down, holster" is issued. There is no prohibition against shooting after "If finished unload and show clear". You cannot assume the shooter ADed if the gun was pointed in the general direction of the targets and no other part of 10.4 was violated.The Course of Fire begins with "Make Ready" and ends with "If clear, hammer down, holster". The shooter can shoot in between (provided the "Stop" command is not in force).

 

I believe this actually happened in a National match and the shooter was DQed. The DQ was over turned. In that case the shooter allegedly admitted that he was unloading.. Does not matter.

[Thomas H]

9 hours ago, Sarge said:

But the bold print also says he deliberately fired the round by putting his finger on the trigger and pulling it. The slide slipped and closed. The gun would not have fired if it didn’t close so the Reloading is complete in my opinion. Sounds like he just got ahead of himself for no reason. I don’t see a DQ at this point.

 

Um, the bold print talks about how his reaction put his finger in the trigger guard to fire a shot, NOT that he deliberately pulled the trigger.  (And this was an unload, not a reload.)

 

8 hours ago, wgj3 said:

I'm with Sarge on this one. Whether the mag was out of the gun or not, he wasnt actively unloading the gun, he hit a target with the round, it was before ULSC, no way to ascribe intent and make DQ stick.

 

Um, he WAS actively unloading the gun (he was starting to rack the slide to remove the round), and slipped while holding the slide (given the info we currently have), and it was after ULSC.  (Not that the ULSC command matters in terms of itself, but it is certainly true that it is likely that someone will be unloading after it.)

 

There is a timing difference between "oh, I just accidentally dropped the slide and the gun went off" and "I'm dropping the slide to raise the gun to take another shot."

 

The description given seems pretty clear at this point.  Obviously, we weren't there and don't know....but again, the discussion is to help the OP figure out what would need to be seen/determined to make the correct call.  Given the situation as described, it seems pretty obvious that it was an AD while unloading.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

Um, the bold print talks about how his reaction put his finger in the trigger guard to fire a shot, NOT that he deliberately pulled the trigger.  (And this was an unload, not a reload.)

 

 

Um, he WAS actively unloading the gun (he was starting to rack the slide to remove the round), and slipped while holding the slide (given the info we currently have), and it was after ULSC.  (Not that the ULSC command matters in terms of itself, but it is certainly true that it is likely that someone will be unloading after it.)

 

There is a timing difference between "oh, I just accidentally dropped the slide and the gun went off" and "I'm dropping the slide to raise the gun to take another shot."

 

The description given seems pretty clear at this point.  Obviously, we weren't there and don't know....but again, the discussion is to help the OP figure out what would need to be seen/determined to make the correct call.  Given the situation as described, it seems pretty obvious that it was an AD while unloading.

This just goes to show how hard it is to make a call based on an internet post. I just DO NOT read it the same way you are. And you want to make a point of correcting my slip of the tongue? Ok, it’s obviously unloading if at ULSC. Still, the slide slipped then he put his finger on the trigger and pulled it. Based on what I’m reading it’s not an AD to me. 

[JohnStewart]

13 hours ago, Kurusty said:

10.4.3.1 Exception – a detonation, which occurs while unloading a
handgun, is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a
match disqualification, however, Rule 5.1.6 may apply.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 

Yes, but this wasn't a "detonation" scenario since the bullet traveled through the barrel and also because it was ignited by the firing pin. 

 

"detonation" - Ignition of a primer of a round, other than by action of a firing pin, where the bullet does not pass through the barrel (e.g. when a slide is being manually retracted, when a round is dropped)

[JohnStewart]

6 hours ago, Brooke said:

Assuming that none of the specified DQ's in 10.4 were violated, this is not a DQ even if the shooter admits he was unloading. The COF is not complete until "If clear, hammer down, holster" is issued. There is no prohibition against shooting after "If finished unload and show clear". You cannot assume the shooter ADed if the gun was pointed in the general direction of the targets and no other part of 10.4 was violated.The Course of Fire begins with "Make Ready" and ends with "If clear, hammer down, holster". The shooter can shoot in between (provided the "Stop" command is not in force).

 

I believe this actually happened in a National match and the shooter was DQed. The DQ was over turned. In that case the shooter allegedly admitted that he was unloading.. Does not matter.

That last part puzzles me... so let's try this scenario to see if I can get some further clarification / insight:

 

If a shooter admits/confirms that when they were unloading, they pulled the trigger by accident and a round accidentally went off (let's remove the "over the berm" and 10 ft questions and say that the round hit a target directly in front of them) - why wouldn't the DQ for AD rule (10.4.3) apply? 

[JohnStewart]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

This just goes to show how hard it is to make a call based on an internet post. I just DO NOT read it the same way you are. And you want to make a point of correcting my slip of the tongue? Ok, it’s obviously unloading if at ULSC. Still, the slide slipped then he put his finger on the trigger and pulled it. Based on what I’m reading it’s not an AD to me. 

 

I can at least clarify the scenario, especially for the purpose of understanding what the right call should be in a certain scenario.  Given the back and forth it's clear to me that there is definitely a question as to whether or not this should be an AD if the shooter claims that the shot was intentional.  OK, so let's set that aside for a moment.

 

Let's take the scenario that: the shooter admits that he was attempting to Unload & Show Clear, he removed the magazine and then attempted to grab the slide to show clear.  However, the slide slipped out of his hand before he got it all the way back, at which point his other hand reacted by quickly re-gripping the gun even harder.  This caused his trigger finger to accidentally re-enter the trigger guard and pull the trigger, causing the round to fire. 

 

Based on this scenario, with the shooter's confirmation that this is indeed what happened - it seems that we have a DQ for an AD under 10.4.3.  Agreed?

 

 

[mwray]

 
I can at least clarify the scenario, especially for the purpose of understanding what the right call should be in a certain scenario.  Given the back and forth it's clear to me that there is definitely a question as to whether or not this should be an AD if the shooter claims that the shot was intentional.  OK, so let's set that aside for a moment.
 
Let's take the scenario that: the shooter admits that he was attempting to Unload & Show Clear, he removed the magazine and then attempted to grab the slide to show clear.  However, the slide slipped out of his hand before he got it all the way back, at which point his other hand reacted by quickly re-gripping the gun even harder.  This caused his trigger finger to accidentally re-enter the trigger guard and pull the trigger, causing the round to fire. 
 
Based on this scenario, with the shooter's confirmation that this is indeed what happened - it seems that we have a DQ for an AD under 10.4.3.  Agreed?
 
 

Dilly Dilly!

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, JohnStewart said:

 

I can at least clarify the scenario, especially for the purpose of understanding what the right call should be in a certain scenario.  Given the back and forth it's clear to me that there is definitely a question as to whether or not this should be an AD if the shooter claims that the shot was intentional.  OK, so let's set that aside for a moment. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF WAYS TO FIRE A ROUND UNINTENTIONALLY WITHOUT BEING AN AD. A SHOOTER DOES NOT HAVE 

TO CLAIM ANYTHING ABOUT INTENT.

Let's take the scenario that: the shooter admits that he was attempting to Unload & Show Clear, he removed the magazine and then attempted to grab the slide to show clear.  However, the slide slipped out of his hand before he got it all the way back, at which point his other hand reacted by quickly re-gripping the gun even harder.  This caused his trigger finger to accidentally re-enter the trigger guard and pull the trigger, causing the round to fire.  THIS IS THE CLEAREST DESCRIPTION OF THE EVENT I HAVE READ. IT WOULD SEEM TO INDICATE AN AD. IF A SHOOTER WANTS TO TELL THE RO HE AD’d THEN THATS ON HIM. BE AWARE THOUGH, MOST SHOOTERS WON’T DO THAT. THEN WHAT? ALSO, JUST BECAUSE A SHOOTER SAYS HE SCREWED UP DOES NOT MEAN ITS A DQ. THIS IS WHY SHOOTERS AND RO’s NEED TO HAVE A FIRM GRASP OF THE RULES.

 

Based on this scenario, with the shooter's confirmation that this is indeed what happened - it seems that we have a DQ for an AD under 10.4.3.  

I’M JUST NOT 100% CONVINCED BUT IT APPEARS TO BE THE CASE.

 

[frgood]

What about
8.4 Loading, Reloading or Unloading During a Course of Fire
8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the handgun must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5).

 

Section 10.5
10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling
Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to...

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

 

Sounds like a DQ to me.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, frgood said:

What about
8.4 Loading, Reloading or Unloading During a Course of Fire
8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the handgun must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5).

 

Section 10.5
10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling
Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to...

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

 

Sounds like a DQ to me.

IF it were a DQ, I would use AD. A gun can fire without finger in trigger guard. Think hammer follow. 

[frgood]

Ah, I misread. I thought someone had mentioned that finger was in trigger during the unload. 
I can never follow these threads with all these what-if's. It is so darn easy to get sidetrac.....squirrel!

[Nik Habicht]

On 11/30/2017 at 11:57 AM, JohnStewart said:

Excellent question... I didn't ask.  I would assume it had been removed, but I'll inquire.  That would definitely go a long way to demonstrating if the shooter was indeed unloading..

Not necessarily - I've dropped the mag, realized a popper was still standing, and dropped it with the chambered round.  (Don't do this boys and girls, it's a surefire way to tank a blown stage even more.  That round probably dropped my HF by 2 points, and cost me 20 match points or so.....)

 

However the bit about the gun firing after the shooter's hand slipped off the slide, that might be the deciding factor in whether or not the competitor is DQ'd for having a finger on the trigger while unloading....

[HCH]

DQ. 

[Gary Stevens]

How do you know his hand slipped? Maybe he just changed his mind about unloading.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Gary Stevens

[StealthyBlagga]

IMHO, the RO, and only the RO, can make this call based only on what he sees. The pertinent rule is under Unsafe Gunhandling:

 

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

 

Unloading is defined as:

 

The removal of ammunition from a firearm. This action is completed when the firearm is empty of all ammunition and the magazine removed or cylinder opened and shown for inspection by a Range Officer.

 

The RO therefore needs to make a judgement call on whether the shooter was still in the process of unloading when their finger entered the trigger guard (which results in a DQ) or whether the shooter had consciously switched from unloading to re-engaging a target (which results in no DQ). This does not require mind reading, but rather an honest assessment of the totality of the circumstances; the state and location of the target, the shooters body language before, during and after the shot is fired, anything the shooter might have said, and so on. There are many times our ROs are called upon to make judgement calls under our rules, and these are always going to be somewhat open to argument... that is why we have an arbitration process. It does not mean we should not trust them to make those calls.

 

I agree with others here - we probably don't have enough info to second-guess the call here on an internet forum. If the RO in this case was not sure that 10.5.9 (or another DQ rule) was applicable, then he was probably right not to issue a DQ.

[Gary Stevens]

I've been down this rabbit trail a few years ago. IMO, until the "if clear......" command is given the shooter may resume shooting at their will. The only issue is farther than 10 feet and safe direction.

 

 

[JAFO]

Anyone read the "Q and A with DNROI" in this month's Multibrief?

 

http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/uspsa/unloading122117.pdf

 

Although the instance the OP described involved actually hitting a target with the shot, the article would seem to support a DQ for a similar situation where no target was purposefully engaged.

[Brooke]

All that was accomplished by this Down Range article was to put the subjective "intent of shooter" question directly on the RO's shoulders. It would have been much better to change the rules to read that any shooter who rushes into "If clear, hammer down holster" before that command is given is DQed.

 

Would a riot have started....yes. It is not going to be any fun to DQ someone subjectively and watch that riot. The only completely objective solution is to bar the shooter from proceeding in advance of commands. After all the shooter is supposed to be under the control of the RO. So let's make it that way. Bar jumping ahead. RO's are going to be blasted by any shooter who gets DQed under this subjective policy.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Brooke

[Gary Stevens]

Hmmm. Course designer intent means nothing, but shooters intent means everything. Neither of which can be subjectively known.

[Yeti]

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling
Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to...

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading.

Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

 

Does not seem to me to be a 10.4 situation.

 

Match DQ

[Shadyscott999]

What happened to the "if we aren't 100% positive on the call, we can't make the call"?  Are we 100% sure he was done?  Doesn't sound like we are.  

A lot of intent and personal feeling being added to this situation.  

 

[Thomas H]

I'm still wondering how it is a match DQ for unsafe gun handling if a deliberate press of the trigger occurs to drop the hammer, with the firearm pointing in a safe direction, prior to the "if clear, hammer down" command.

 

I agree that the person is in the middle of the "if finished, unload and show clear" sequence (especially when it is obvious that they are done shooting, and are just pulling the trigger with the gun pointed at the berm)---but I don't agree that equates to "while unloading."  This isn't having a finger in the trigger guard while unloading or something.  Actions were performed on the pistol, in an attempt to unload.  However, those actions are done (whether correctly or not), and the pistol is pointed in a safe direction and the trigger deliberately pulled.  The fact that the pistol wasn't successfully unloaded doesn't change the fact that 1) the "if clear, hammer down" command hasn't been given, and 2) the manipulation action was completed.

 

We don't DQ someone for firing a deliberate shot into a target with the magazine out of the pistol (because that isn't in the middle of an unload).    Why are we DQing them for firing a deliberate shot in a safe direction at a different point in time that isn't in the middle of an unload action either? 

 

Because we think they were trying to unload and didn't succeed?  Shooting into the berm while not performing any other manipulations of the gun and not moving isn't a DQ offense.   

 

Because we know it was an AD?  That doesn't automatically make it a DQ in the rest of the rulebook.

 

Because we think this AD should be a DQ?  The rules don't seem to support that...

 

 

[JohnStewart]

31 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

I'm still wondering how it is a match DQ for unsafe gun handling if a deliberate press of the trigger occurs to drop the hammer, with the firearm pointing in a safe direction, prior to the "if clear, hammer down" command.

 

I agree that the person is in the middle of the "if finished, unload and show clear" sequence (especially when it is obvious that they are done shooting, and are just pulling the trigger with the gun pointed at the berm)---but I don't agree that equates to "while unloading."  This isn't having a finger in the trigger guard while unloading or something.  Actions were performed on the pistol, in an attempt to unload.  However, those actions are done (whether correctly or not), and the pistol is pointed in a safe direction and the trigger deliberately pulled.  The fact that the pistol wasn't successfully unloaded doesn't change the fact that 1) the "if clear, hammer down" command hasn't been given, and 2) the manipulation action was completed.

 

We don't DQ someone for firing a deliberate shot into a target with the magazine out of the pistol (because that isn't in the middle of an unload).    Why are we DQing them for firing a deliberate shot in a safe direction at a different point in time that isn't in the middle of an unload action either? 

 

Because we think they were trying to unload and didn't succeed?  Shooting into the berm while not performing any other manipulations of the gun and not moving isn't a DQ offense.   

 

Because we know it was an AD?  That doesn't automatically make it a DQ in the rest of the rulebook.

 

Because we think this AD should be a DQ?  The rules don't seem to support that...

 

 

Thomas - first off, thanks for your response.  I appreciate your analytical and specific dissection of the points.

 

To your first statement, from the RO's perspective the press of the trigger was not deliberate.  The pressing of the trigger was an accident, a reaction to the slide accidentally slipping out of the left hand.  It seems that there is a question of how to rule if the shooter denies that point.  At which point I've come to the perspective that the RO should hear the competitor's explanation thoroughly and weigh that with their observation ... then make a ruling.  If the RO doesn't very clearly believe they just saw an accidental discharge, then the competitor doesn't get a DQ.  However, if the competitor acknowledges and agrees that yes the pulling of the trigger was an accident, I think most everyone is in agreement that this is a DQ for sure.

 

It also seems that we have different people interpreting when "unloading" is complete.  The rulebook says that unloading is ".. completed when the firearm is empty of all ammunition and the magazine removed or cylinder opened and shown for inspection by a RO".  So, from that definition I infer that unloading cannot be complete if, a) unloading has begun and b )  there is still ammo in the firearm.  The later of course was obviously the case in our example, since the ammo was ignited.  Some may challenge whether unloading had actually started, but again if we assume that the competitor acknowledges they were attempting to unload per the command "If finished, Unload & Show Clear", then it seems clear that unloading had started, was in process, and then the "shot occurred" - thereby meeting the 10.4.3 rule.

 

Your thoughts?

Edited December 22, 2017 by JohnStewart

[Gary Stevens]

The current rule provides a particular set of metrics to make this call. If the "if clear ...." command has not been given a shot fired farther than 10 feet from the shooter, or in some unsafe direction is not a DQ offense, IMO.

 

Action compared to metric of rulebook has been and is sufficient. Subjectivity not necessary.

[wtturn]

Par for the course from our current DNROI.