If Finished perceived AD, is it a DQ??

[JohnStewart]

At a recent Level I USPSA match, a fellow RO was at the end of a COF with a shooter.  The shooter was standing directly in front of a paper target only a few feet away, with his barrel aimed directly at the target when the RO gave the command, "If Finished, Unload & Show Clear".  It was obvious to the RO that the shooter was indeed finished and as the shooter attempted to grasp the slide of his pistol to pull it back and rack out the round to "Show Clear", his grip on the slide slipped and the slide returned to battery.  During this process, the shooters reaction included him returning his finger inside the trigger guard, squeezing the trigger and firing a round - directly into the target. 

 

Is this a DQ??  If so, what rule defines this to be a DQ?

 

The RO had not issued the "If Clear.." command, and we know that a shooter IS allowed to continue shooting after the "If Finished.." command, so having fired a shot alone after this command isn't the issue.  The RO believes the intent of the shooter was to Unload & Show Clear, and thought this should be a DQ... however he was concerned that the shooter could defend his actions by saying he intentionally fired the round.  That lead to a discussion, does "intent" matter?  Or more broadly, does the perspective/belief of the RO (MD) outweigh the competitor?  (For those curious, the shooter was counseled but out of a concern for fairness and not being sure, the shooter was not DQ'd).

 

This RO and I were co-MD's for this Level I watch.  He debriefed with me after the match to get my take on the decision, and while we both agreed that our instincts said that this was an AD, and we thought it should be a DQ, we couldn't identify what rule would make it a DQ (my RO instructor drilled into our head to always be able to quote the specific rule for any call, especially a DQ).  So, we agreed to read up on it to learn from this experience ... which brings me here looking for insight from more seasoned & experienced ROs, because after reading the rules I'm still not completely sure how to interpret them.

 

USPSA rules, section 10.4 deals with DQ's for Accidental Discharge.  It specifically defines what qualifies as an AD:

- 10.4.1 confirms any shot going over the berm or shot in an unsafe direction, which wasn't the case here

- 10.4.2 defines the 10 foot rule, which didn't apply

- 10.4.3 defines a shot fired while loading, reloading or unloading including the "If Clear..." command (which had not yet been issued).  This rule might apply.. but is it sufficient that the RO believes the shooter was unloading (to 'Show Clear') and does that override a shooter claiming the shot was intentional?

- 10.4.4 deals with a shot being fired when clearing a malfunction, which wasn't the case

- 10.4.5 deals with a shot being fired when transferring hands, again not the case

- 10.4.6 deals with a shot being fired when not aiming and in movement, again not the case

 

So, after reading the rules and reflecting on this for a few days - my opinion of how this should have been handled would be that this should have been a DQ, defined by rule 10.4.3.  To our concern of the shooter attempting to debate the call by saying that he intentionally shot the round, the RO/MD could point out that the required rounds were already in that target and therefore the extra shot wasn't required (although would have been legal).  If the shooter continued to debate the call, a co-MD should have been called .. if that were me, after hearing both sides I would override the objection by the shooter by saying the RO believes the shooter was attempting to unload the handgun and therefore 10.4.3 applies.

 

Again, in the spirit of becoming better RO's and learning from this experience - do you agree with my assessment of how this should have been handled?  Do any of you have a different interpretation of the rules or would you make a different call??  Please state specific rules related to your reasoning so that we can learn as much from this as possible.

[ChuckS]

What was up with the magazine during all this?

[JohnStewart]

1 minute ago, ChuckS said:

What was up with the magazine during all this?

Excellent question... I didn't ask.  I would assume it had been removed, but I'll inquire.  That would definitely go a long way to demonstrating if the shooter was indeed unloading..

[CHA-LEE]

If the range command at the moment was "If finished, unload and show clear" and the round went in a safe direction or into a target then its not a DQ per the rules. If the range command was "If Clear, Hammer Down & holster" then it would be a DQ.

[JohnStewart]

2 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

If the range command at the moment was "If finished, unload and show clear" and the round went in a safe direction or into a target then its not a DQ per the rules. If the range command was "If Clear, Hammer Down & holster" then it would be a DQ.

First off - thanks for joining in the discussion... as I tried to emphasize in my first post, we are wanting to learn from this what we can.

 

The command "If Clear, Hammer Down & Holster" was definitely NOT issued yet.  The last command prior to this round being fired was "If Finished, Unload and Show Clear". 

 

So, even if the shooter had removed the mag and was clearly attempting to rack the round from the chamber, your view is that it should not be a DQ?  Following that logic, the RO's perception that the shooter was attempting to unload doesn't matter in this case?  (Again, not trying to argue... just understanding the thought process)

[mwray]

Was the magazine already removed from the gun?

[JohnStewart]

Just now, mwray said:

Was the magazine already removed from the gun?

I just heard back from the RO, he said he honestly isn't sure at this point - but he thinks it likely was.  For the purpose of this discussion, let's assume that the magazine was removed from the gun.

[mwray]

I just heard back from the RO, he said he honestly isn't sure at this point - but he thinks it likely was.  For the purpose of this discussion, let's assume that the magazine was removed from the gun.

In that case he was definitely trying to unload the gun the correct way so it was an accidental discharge. With the golden rule of “don’t be a dick” always in play, it’s up to you to decide to DQ the guy or not.

If it was me? Being a local lvl1 match I would have prolly let it slide. That is if they guy had been good squad mate all day. He would still receive a stern warning along with some help to prevent such actions in the future

[CHA-LEE]

JohnStewart> We can't assume the intent of the competitor during the COF. All we can do is observe what they are doing and deploy calls based on the rules. I have lost count of how many times over the years where I have ROed a shooter and issued the "If Finished..." command and they continued to shoot for whatever reason. A few times that has resulted in a shot going over the berm or closer than 10 feet while not engaging a target which resulted in a DQ. But beyond that we as RO's can't really judge the intent of the shooters actions and base our expectation of what we think their intent is verses what it really is. It would be like a shooter missing a target by 5 feet then claiming that they didn't engage it because their shots were too far from the target. Some shooters really do suck that bad and we can't assume that they didn't engage the target because their skills can't get their shots closer to the target.

[Kraj]

37 minutes ago, JohnStewart said:

 

 

I'm going to say no dq. The shooter was allowed to make up a shot until if clear. It's not against the rules to shoot with out a mag in the gun. Unless it happened while he was taking the mag out, or when  the slide closed it went off.. Your going to have a hard time proving he intended to do the opposite of what he said. As soon as the gun is back in battery is it still being unloaded? 

 

Unloading ....................... The removal of ammunition from a firearm. This action is completed when the firearm is empty of all ammunition and the magazine removed or cylinder 
opened and shown for inspection by a Range 
Officer.

[CHA-LEE]

These type of issues usually happen when the shooter is all jacked up on adrenaline after their run and they rush through the Unload/Show Clear process. Educating these types of shooters on the proper Unload/Show Clear process needs to start as soon as the RO see's it happen on ANY stage run. When I run into shooters that do this I pull them aside and tell them that there is no need to RACE during the unload process. I also make it clear that there are two distinct steps during the process, the first is the Unload/Show Clear which the shooter should do then pause at that point UNTIL the "If Clear, Hammer Down & Holster" command is given. Once the "If clear...." command is given they can proceed to drop the hammer and holster the gun.

 

For stubborn shooters that keep "Forgetting" that its a two stage process and rush through the steps outrunning the range commands, I simply tell them "I have warned you about this X times already. The next time you do it I will kick you in the nuts as a penalty for continually screwing this process up and making the range unsafe for everyone". I have only had to deploy that messaging a couple of times over the years but magically these stubborn shooters seem to remember the proper process after there is a definitive penalty defined for continuing to screw it up. I hate to be a prick like that but for some people a heavy handed approach is needed to make these safety requirements a reality. 

[JAFO]

For those of you not in favor of a DQ, do you view this instance differently than if a shooter discharges a round when he slaps the mag home on a reload and the gun just happens to be pointed at a target?  AD's during reloading often occur because a finger was in the trigger guard, and it seems that a finger in the trigger guard was the cause here as well.  Both 10.4.3 and 10.5.9 include "loading, reloading, or unloading " in the description of the DQ'able offense.

[10X]

I see merit in the arguments for both sides, but I agree with the 'No DQ and a Stern Talking-To" solution here, because linking a DQ to a specific rule violation would seem to require ascribing intent to the shooter.  Which I think would be wrong.

[motosapiens]

41 minutes ago, JAFO said:

For those of you not in favor of a DQ, do you view this instance differently than if a shooter discharges a round when he slaps the mag home on a reload and the gun just happens to be pointed at a target?  AD's during reloading often occur because a finger was in the trigger guard, and it seems that a finger in the trigger guard was the cause here as well.  Both 10.4.3 and 10.5.9 include "loading, reloading, or unloading " in the description of the DQ'able offense.

 

good point. We already have situations where we have to judge the shooter's intent, this seems like another one.  If you appear to be unloading your gun, and it goes off, I might say that is an AD that occurs while unloading. Now if you drop the magazine, and then actually aim a shot to hit a popper you forgot or something, and you don't appear surprised AF when the gun goes off, I might tend to think that is an intentional shot, and that you had paused the unloading process in order to finish shooting. Which is fine, btw, I even did it at nationals once.

 

Note that we also have to make judgement calls about intent when the shooter is moving, and either has an early shot, or has a finger in the trigger guard. Was he aiming at targets? If so, those things are ok.... if not, DQ.

Edited November 30, 2017 by motosapiens

[mwray]

Probably the easiest way to tell if it was intentional or not is, did the target need to be shot again. If not did this supposedly AD happen to improve his hits on said target. If not “sir I hate to inform you that you are done for the day”

[sc68cal]

DQ the shooter under Rule 10.4.3 - "A shot which occurs while loading, reloading, or unloading a handgun" - since they had removed their magazine and had racked the slide. It does not sound like it was a situation where they realized they had missed targets and wanted to make sure they got all their points, consciously pointed the gun, took aim, and fired.

 

8.4.1 also specifies "when loading, reloading, or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor's fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard"

 

Clear cut. AD's are not something you give a warning and a stern talking to. They go home. Even if it goes to arbitration and is overturned, then the only downside is they get a reshoot. I'd rather have reshoots after arbitration overturns an AD call, and make people be more conscious of where their finger is at all times, compared to being lenient and having nightmare scenarios happen- people getting shot.

Edited November 30, 2017 by sc68cal

[Thomas H]

4 hours ago, JohnStewart said:

It was obvious to the RO that the shooter was indeed finished and as the shooter attempted to grasp the slide of his pistol to pull it back and rack out the round to "Show Clear", his grip on the slide slipped and the slide returned to battery.  During this process, the shooters reaction included him returning his finger inside the trigger guard, squeezing the trigger and firing a round - directly into the target.

 

The part in bold is what makes it a DQ for me.  The shooter was in the process of unloading, and while doing so, fired a shot.

 

Now, had it not been obvious to me (as the RO) what the shooter was doing, then, whether or not I thought it was an AD wouldn't matter---I wouldn't call it.  If I'm not certain, I'm not going to call it.

 

If the shooter obviously slipped and the gun fired due to it during the unload phase, then it is a DQ under 10.4.3. 

 

If the shooter let go of the slide, and a shot goes into a target, then I don't know.  So no DQ.

 

I have had a shooter (after "unload and show clear") quickly rack out a round, point the gun at a target with one hand, and pull the trigger.  Now, HE obviously thought it was unloaded and that after the click he'd holster and I'd eventually catch up with the next range command.  Luckily for him, he did it so fast that I hadn't given the next range command yet, because he didn't take out the magazine and so he fired a shot into the target.  As such, it wasn't a DQ, though he obviously performed an AD (he certainly wasn't expecting it to fire) because it was in a safe direction, as a deliberate shot into a target, not during an unloading phase.  (He was finished with his gun manipulation.)

 

As an RO, I recognize certain things.  If I'm certain, I'll make the call.  If I'm not certain, I won't.  If I'm wrong, the arb will overturn me.

 

 

 

 

[CHA-LEE]

We can beat this specific situation to death but we really don't know all of the facts. The OP and RO can't even confirm that the magazine was removed from the gun during this event which in its self totally changes the scenario. How does the RO NOT know if the magazine is still in the gun during or after the AD? If the RO doesn't even know the load condition of the gun then how on earth can they make a valid DQ call? We can all give our opinions about the situation leveraging subjective facts. I don't see how this helps the OP in ensuring his RO's are officiating better? If his RO's are not clearly observing the situation, such as knowing the load condition of the gun or point of the gun when the AD happened, then there is no way an accurate ruling can be made. 

 

There are way too many "lazy" RO's out there that think the whole job is boiled down to holding a timer out in front of them for the run and scoring targets after the run. If you are not up to the task of ROing proficiently then don't RO. 

[JAFO]

23 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 I don't see how this helps the OP in ensuring his RO's are officiating better? If his RO's are not clearly observing the situation, such as knowing the load condition of the gun or point of the gun when the AD happened, then there is no way an accurate ruling can be made. 

 

You're right in that we can't accurately second-guess the actual event in question.  But if nothing else, the OP can go back knowing what should be observed during the ULSC process, and what aspects should be considered if a shot is fired during it.

[waktasz]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

The part in bold is what makes it a DQ for me.  The shooter was in the process of unloading, and while doing so, fired a shot.

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly my thoughts. If the incident happened as described, DQ for AD while unloading. The guy's hand slipped from the slide and accidentally hit the trigger. Doesn't matter where the bullet went. If I wasn't sure that this was how it went down, then sounds like the shooter may have gotten away with one, or maybe he meant to fire a makeup...

[JohnStewart]

7 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

You're right in that we can't accurately second-guess the actual event in question.  But if nothing else, the OP can go back knowing what should be observed during the ULSC process, and what aspects should be considered if a shot is fired during it.

Precisely.  I've acknowledge that knowing where the magazine was during all of this was a very important detail, one I will pass along.  For now, I've asked that we assume that the magazine was removed - so that I can further understand how to rule. 

 

I appreciate the insights and confirmations everyone has contributed today, this has been helpful.

 

I also am of the mindset that we want to run our Level I matches by the rules, just as we would run a Level II match.  I don't enjoy DQ'ing anyone, but it's the job and it's important.  I had to DQ my own brother a month ago, on his first stage of the day, for breaking the 180.  He didn't dispute the fact, and took it in stride .. but I felt like crap the rest of the day for doing it, all while knowing that I had done the right thing.  My point, it sucks to DQ someone but I believe you have to have the courage to do so when required.

 

Based on the scenario I described, and what I've read on here thus far, I'm inclined to stick with my original interpretation - the call should be a DQ per 10.4.3.  It was obvious to the RO that the shooter was in the process of unloading when his grip slipped, and his reaction caused his other hand to pull the trigger and fire a round.  Checking first to confirm that the magazine had indeed been removed would be an extremely valuable confirmation.  Additionally, I would even consider asking the shooter if they were in the process of unloading.  If the shooter confirms that was the case, I think everyone is in agreement that this should be a DQ.  If the shooter denies it, then I would want to hear the shooter's viewpoint and consider what they have to say.  If after listening to the shooter's side of the story, I'm still as convinced that the shooter was unloading - then I'd stick with the DQ ruling.

 

Thanks again for everyone's inputs!

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

The part in bold is what makes it a DQ for me.  The shooter was in the process of unloading, and while doing so, fired a shot.

 

Now, had it not been obvious to me (as the RO) what the shooter was doing, then, whether or not I thought it was an AD wouldn't matter---I wouldn't call it.  If I'm not certain, I'm not going to call it.

 

If the shooter obviously slipped and the gun fired due to it during the unload phase, then it is a DQ under 10.4.3. 

 

If the shooter let go of the slide, and a shot goes into a target, then I don't know.  So no DQ.

 

I have had a shooter (after "unload and show clear") quickly rack out a round, point the gun at a target with one hand, and pull the trigger.  Now, HE obviously thought it was unloaded and that after the click he'd holster and I'd eventually catch up with the next range command.  Luckily for him, he did it so fast that I hadn't given the next range command yet, because he didn't take out the magazine and so he fired a shot into the target.  As such, it wasn't a DQ, though he obviously performed an AD (he certainly wasn't expecting it to fire) because it was in a safe direction, as a deliberate shot into a target, not during an unloading phase.  (He was finished with his gun manipulation.)

 

As an RO, I recognize certain things.  If I'm certain, I'll make the call.  If I'm not certain, I won't.  If I'm wrong, the arb will overturn me.

 

 

 

 

But the bold print also says he deliberately fired the round by putting his finger on the trigger and pulling it. The slide slipped and closed. The gun would not have fired if it didn’t close so the Reloading is complete in my opinion. Sounds like he just got ahead of himself for no reason. I don’t see a DQ at this point.

[wgj3]

I'm with Sarge on this one. Whether the mag was out of the gun or not, he wasnt actively unloading the gun, he hit a target with the round, it was before ULSC, no way to ascribe intent and make DQ stick.

We've all heard the long "iiiiiiiffff you are..." indicating something missed. I have on more than one occasion used the remaining round in my chamber to re-engage a target at the end of a run when I spot a hard cover mike, etc.

[Kurusty]

10.4.3.1 Exception – a detonation, which occurs while unloading a
handgun, is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a
match disqualification, however, Rule 5.1.6 may apply.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[ChuckS]

FWIW: From the glossary:

 

"Unloading ....................... The removal of ammunition from a firearm. This action is completed when the firearm is empty of all ammunition and the magazine removed or cylinder opened and shown for inspection by a Range Officer."