LOW LEFT

[Ghorsley]

I’ve known people that always group low left. Not pressing the trigger straight back is what I thought was the culprit. Well it’s happened to me.

 

I bought a new carry gun last week, a VP9 Sk. So far I’ve got about 350 rounds down range. My friend shot it and was getting fist sized groups at ten yards. (It’s not the gun) At the same distance my groups looked like a shot gun pattern “lower left”. I’ve dry fired, bill drills, relaxed strong arm and squeezed the living s**t out of it as Vickers says. Even thought about seeing a witch doctor. 

 

Any ideas....

many thanks

 

 

 

 

[reverse_edge]

Are you only doing it with this specific gun? Ball & Dummy? 

[IHAVEGAS]

Learn to watch the front sight lift in recoil.

 

It is like magic, you will either see yourself pull the sight low left right before the sight lifts or find that you need to adjust the sights. If the former, dry fire until you can pull the trigger without moving the sight off of the target. 

[Ghorsley]

2 hours ago, reverse_edge said:

Are you only doing it with this specific gun? Ball & Dummy? 

I have to concentrate with other guns on pressing the trigger straight back. But it is not working so much on this gun

[lgh]

Try shooting it like a double action revolver with more finger on the trigger. i.e. With your first knuckle on the trigger. It really made a difference for me when I changed from 1911 to Glock. The Glock was always LEFT before I did that.

[Hammer002]

Low left is nearly ALWAYS the same reason - recoil anticipation.  This is common in just about every new shooter and goes away with good practice and training.  No matter what you think you are doing when you shoot, your body is betraying you either by lack of training or experience.  This is not a bad thing, nor hard to fix.  What actually causes low is pushing into the gun to "compensate" for the recoil that's about to come.  The left (right handed shooter) comes from recoil anticipation as well, you are squeezing slightly more while pulling the trigger, again, for the recoil that's about to come.  If you need proof, have a friend load a magazine for you with random dummy rounds.  The first one that comes up will show you exactly what's happening.

 

The fix - practice.  With practice comes experience and body training.  Someone mentioned seeing the sights move.  Yes, this is applicable, but low left usually means recoil anticipation which also usually means wincing or even closing of the eyes during recoil.  Focused live fire practice will help this.  All the advice in the world, i.e. "squeeze the grip," or "hold it loosely," or "watch the sights," means nothing if the shooter is moving the gun right before it fires. 

 

Sometimes experienced shooters (or what they think of themselves to be) can see this creep back into their shooting.  Usually its something new that's exposing a bad habit or weak mechanic.  Sometimes a new gun with more or different recoil.  Some people experience it when beginning competition because there is a new stress level.  Low left is always recoil anticipation.  As mentioned, the best proof is random dummy rounds.  Don't just take my word for it, prove it to yourself, then you will be able to fix it.  And focused practice is not just making brass at the local range.  Use a drill, practice a specific skill.  The good news....this is the easiest error to fix. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Hammer002

[lgh]

6 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

Low left is nearly ALWAYS the same reason - recoil anticipation

For a right handed shooter, I believe you are referring to flinch plus trigger jerk. It is a classic mistake, well known among bullseye shooters and, like you said, something that kinda creeps back if you are not aware.  But there are other causes. This includes but is not limited to sight alignment, grip, trigger pull, gun not sighted in, etc. What might have been a post ignition push could turn into a flinch with a different trigger. The OP sounds like he/she is already experienced but the problem began with a new gun. A systematic approach ultimately saves a lot of frustration. When I switched from a 1911, I thought flinch/jerk was sending them low left but I remembered my instructor telling me - be systematic when trouble shooting. There are a bunch of things that contribute to a bad shot.

[IHAVEGAS]

Yadda yada yada.

 

Watch the sight lift. It is magic, side benefit is it lets you call your hits because you know how the gun was aimed when the bullet left it.

 

All of this 'stand on your hind foot and divide by the square root of your grandpa's birthday' stuff is ok, but you need to learn to see the sight lift regardless. 

 

[lgh]

7 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Yadda yada yada.

You still have to figure out why the sites weren't on. And it doesn't help much if your gun isn't sighted in or your alignment is bad.

[dsu96]

Doubt it's the gun/sights with this particular instance.  He said his buddy shot good groups with it...so that means it's likely technique/operator error.

 

I've found that I used to shoot low/left with compact pistols (i.e. EDC types) but with full-frame guns, I shoot straight and true.  So it may be part mental block/part physical training.  After much practice/dry fire/live fire, my compact pistol shooting has become better.

 

I would try dry fire.  Balance an empty piece of brass on the slide while pulling the trigger.  Get to the point where you're able to keep the brass on the slide each and every time.  Then move to the ball/dummy drill mentioned above.  

[Ghorsley]

Thanks guys. All good information here. I will practice some or all of these suggestions. Off topic a bit, but here’s something that always amazes me; I’ve been to several world class shooting classes. The instructors all have national and world championships. The interesting thing is they have different mechanics they teach. One champ slaps his trigger. Another one wants you to have a 60/30 grip. Here’s one that says squeeze the living **** out of it. Then there is the shoot to reset instructor. Another says it’s impossible to shoot fast from reset. One of the most famous shooters in the world says to shoot fast, forget about sights and just point it.  I get it that most of these guys have shot so much they can get away with deviations from the norm. For me, it’s too many options from people that know what they are talking about. 

 

Maybe Brian will comment.

[MemphisMechanic]

They’re all doing it right. That’s the thing that frustrates new shooters.

 

You need to get the sights on target, pull the trigger straight back without moving the gun, and do it using an aggressive enough grip to return the gun back to the A-zone quickly.

 

Thats it. That’s all there is to shooting - it’s not complicated.

 

The complication is that there are a dozen ways to do some of those things that might work for you, and might not. And just because something is simple does not mean that it is easy.

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[Ghorsley]

I showed a couple of my practice USPSA targets to a friend today. While I managed to shoot mostly A’s they were all grouped low left at 7yds. I can guarantee if I went to 10 or 15 yds things would have been much worse. He mentioned changing to a compact could be part of the problem. I normally shoot a 5” barrel. I bought the HK vp9sk for carry. When I figure out if it’s flinching or something else I think I can get it fixed. A few sessions with a GM and a couple of thousand rounds should get me back in the game

Thanks again for all your help.

 

 

 

 

 

[enzo357]

Lock out that wrist on the weak hand. Stronger grip with the weak hand. 

 

[lgh]

13 hours ago, enzo357 said:

Lock out that wrist on the weak hand. Stronger grip with the weak hand. 

 

Grip is one thing that cause shots going left. I know it happens with me when I get tired - sight alignment is off to left and I know to clamp down harder with weak hand. You adjust on the fly. Trigger finger placement is another cause for shots left. The first You Tube is Pat Mac and the second a nice overview. 

 

 

[Boudreaux78]

Many people say that low left shooting is caused by anticipation and finger placement. I would challenge you to think about this.

 

when the sights are aligned and all is right in the world, we want the gun to go boom at that instant. We force the trigger back quickly so that the bullet goes right where the sights were. This can create a natural pull down and to the left for a right handed shooter. I call it making the gun go boom. If you are shooting for groups are precision, all your focus should be on the front sights and let the trigger finger do what it already knows what to do, then the gun going boom should be a surprise. When we force something, it will move. 

 

The penny drill is a great way to train the trigger finger to go straight back. Place a penny on the front sight and dry fire practice at a target while focusing on the front sight.

[Hammer002]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 3:35 PM, Boudreaux78 said:

Many people say that low left shooting is caused by anticipation and finger placement. I would challenge you to think about this.

 

when the sights are aligned and all is right in the world, we want the gun to go boom at that instant. We force the trigger back quickly so that the bullet goes right where the sights were. This can create a natural pull down and to the left for a right handed shooter. I call it making the gun go boom. If you are shooting for groups are precision, all your focus should be on the front sights and let the trigger finger do what it already knows what to do, then the gun going boom should be a surprise. When we force something, it will move. 

 

The penny drill is a great way to train the trigger finger to go straight back. Place a penny on the front sight and dry fire practice at a target while focusing on the front sight.

 

 

I'm slightly confused.  I posted about low left being recoil anticipation - and it is.  So I continued reading for what you were going to challenge me to think about.  You went on to define recoil anticipation.  Trying to beat the recoil impulse with a "quick" trigger pull is a form of recoil anticipation.  And, indeed, causes, at best, a low left target hit due to the natural mechanics of the human hand.  Squeezing harder just before recoil in anticipation is also a form of recoil anticipation (however this can also present a high target hit).  Wincing, blinking, or shutting of the eyes is also a form of recoil anticipation.  Pushing into the gun just before recoil is a form of recoil anticipation. 

 

Low left usually becomes evident once shooters have gotten mostly used to a gun going off in their hands.  Its when they start to "learn to shoot" that mechanics become just good enough to place shots in the same place and create a group.  The next steps are to begin honing the skills further, one of which, continuing to completely rid the many forms of recoil anticipation, even though the shooter would like to think he is completely passed it.  Issues can be different for many people, but low left is VERY common.  This can become evident again when the mechanics/skills have been built on a single gun.  Sometimes, changing that gun, and therefore the recoil impulse, even if less, can cause recoil anticipation to become an issue again.  Sometimes it can be an expected difference in recoil such as being handed a 44 magnum or 50 cal. 

 

There is some good info in this thread for especially new shooters to consider.  I would just encourage everyone to know the differences in diagnosing problems.  Finger pad placement can be an issue, however, if it is the only issue, it will likely be horizontal to point of aim.  Meaning, directly to the left if not enough finger due to a push of the gun away from the finger, or directly to the right if too much finger in the trigger due to the gun to be pulled into the clasping finger.

 

Anything low, assuming proper zero, is ALWAYS some form of recoil anticipation.  ALWAYS.  The addition of left can mean one thing if its horizontal left, but when low, it is a part of recoil anticipation.  If low left is a part of patterns on the target looking like a shotgun pattern, that's looking at the target instead of the front sight.  If the problem is a good grouping, just in the wrong place, there is a specific diagnosis for each direction.  Low left is recoil anticipation.  Argue, ignore, whatever you like, that's what it is.  That's handgun 101.  The "penny drill" is relevant and works in dry fire.  I have used a piece of brass as well.  There is an issue with this drill for the slightly experienced shooter though, he can focus in that moment, knowing the gun is not going to fire, and apply proper trigger pull.  The best way to train this is with random dummy rounds loaded in the magazine during live fire.  There is no better feedback for someone convinced they are doing it right than to see that gun dip when they pull the trigger and get no bang.  At the same time, the shooter may also see an exceedingly great improvement in shot placement because he is actually applying good mechanics due to expecting EVERY round to be the dummy round so as not to see the gun dip.  It works either way.

 

The best advice is seek some quality training.  There is no better way to get better or diagnose issues than from a competent second party to objectively provide feedback and instruction.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Hammer002

[Boudreaux78]

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying this was always the case. Just throwing out a possibility that could be causing it. I'm not referring to recoil anticipation, rather forcing the trigger backwards at that perfect sight alignment. Forcing the trigger has nothing to do with recoil anticipation for a more experienced shooter. Unless the gun is just beating you up, recoil is really not that much to deal with. 

 

This is just a theory that I have seen fix a few shooters problem with shooting low and left. When they focus on the front sight and let the gun go boom instead of forcing it, the round goes right where the sights were aligned. 

[sherpa25]

Couldn't this be caused too by the gun dipping after recoil, perhaps due to some shooter's grip methods?  After firing a shot, I sometimes notice the sights dip a bit past the horizontal center (front sights bit lower than rear sights) before rising returning to alignment.  Perhaps caused by the camming of the support hand, inducing this as the slide moves forward?

[Hammer002]

4 hours ago, sherpa25 said:

Couldn't this be caused too by the gun dipping after recoil, perhaps due to some shooter's grip methods?  After firing a shot, I sometimes notice the sights dip a bit past the horizontal center (front sights bit lower than rear sights) before rising returning to alignment.  Perhaps caused by the camming of the support hand, inducing this as the slide moves forward?

 

This is kind of a different thing.  Most likely what you are referring to is what most would call the gun being "oversprung."  Meaning, the recoil spring is too much for the gun not to slam the slide back forward without causing the gun to dip downward.  If you happened to break a shot during this moment, sure, but if everything else is correct, it would be just low, not also left.  Also, you would want to be asking why the trigger is being pressed without seeing the sight on the target, and there are legitimate answers for that, but knowing them is self explanatory pertaining to the issue itself.  Also, this would be random, as I don't think you could time a shot breaking over and over at the specific time the slide has dipped.  Most often, a "low left" discussion has to do with a pattern.  Putting multiple shots in the same place, just low and left of the target.

 

Again...99.9 percent of the time low left = recoil anticipation.  Everything else is excuses.

[lgh]

If folks haven't seen Eric Grauffel on Shooters' Summit, it is worth seeing. Today is the last day you can see it for free so act fast. He talks about grip and trigger placement and it is probably not what you think. People are all different. Within the bounds of certain objectives and goals, you have to find what works for you, not what is preached.

 

 

[JOThompson]

On 11/7/2017 at 1:50 PM, IHAVEGAS said:

Learn to watch the front sight lift in recoil.

 

It is like magic, you will either see yourself pull the sight low left right before the sight lifts or find that you need to adjust the sights. If the former, dry fire until you can pull the trigger without moving the sight off of the target. 

I will try this out and let you know. I consistently shoot low and to the left with my Glocks, even the ones with custom trigger jobs. I don't fully understand it. 

[Eureka1911]

This is a frustrating issue for me. I can go to the range one day and not have a single low left shot. Another day it's all I can do. Worse, I've had it happen during a range session. Start off fine, and then suddenly the low-lefts appear. I usually put it off to fatigue/loss of concentration.

 

I now start every trip with some dry fire and also end it with some. Another drill I do is to pull the trigger a number of times with the thumb safety on, then pop it off and let the live round go. That, combined with working on intense focus on the front sight usually helps me get back on track.

[stick]

All the advice above is correct.

Here's a little something I did to help with recoil anticipation.  Double plug!  Ear plugs and muffs.  Eliminate the anticipation of the boom.  For me, I have an inverted right ear drum.  the sound was making my eyes flinch.  Double plugged for a while and the problem was solved.  I no longer need to double plug unless I'm shooting 3gun.  my comp on my rifle is loud as hell and it makes my ears ring.

[lgh]

8 hours ago, Eureka1911 said:

This is a frustrating issue for me. I can go to the range one day and not have a single low left shot. Another day it's all I can do. Worse, I've had it happen during a range session. Start off fine, and then suddenly the low-lefts appear. I usually put it off to fatigue/loss of concentration.

 

When fatigue sets in, grip can go down the tubes. I notice it sometimes and it is especially obvious when using a dot. I can correct on the fly because I know if the dot isn't there it is to the left and I have to grip harder with support hand. That brings it on target very fast. You might want to experiment with grip vs sight alignment to see if that is an issue with you. In dry fire, loosen up your support hand and see if the sight drifts left. If so, that might be part of the problem.

 

In the Eric G interview I mention above, he cites fatigue as one reason he uses a push-pull rather than "vice-like squeeze". When you're out there shooting all day you WILL get tired and your hands will tire much easier/faster than the larger muscles you use with a push-pull.