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Steel DQ line- Handbook Vs. Range


Thatsme

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This question came up today.  So we had a stage that we had steel poppers on.  During stage set up Steel DQ fault lines were painted red and staked down.  the DQ line was decided by the match director but they ended up being about 28 feet from the steel instead of the 23.

 

A couple of shooters shot from the wrong side of the DQ line and got DQ'd.  My question is can the match directors dictated DQ line over rule the USPSA rule book if it is told to the shooters during the stage brief?

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No, the rule book is the guide.

Typically steal dq lines are separate and out side the shooting area. I doubt a stage with a dq line for steel inside a shooting area is legal.

 

2.1.3 says steel must be 26 feet from fault line so a competitor may fault without being under the 23' minimum.

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

No, the rule book is the guide.

Typically steal dq lines are separate and out side the shooting area. I doubt a stage with a dq line for steel inside a shooting area is legal.

 

2.1.3 says steel must be 26 feet from fault line so a competitor may fault without being under the 23' minimum.

 

 

 

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I've seen the steel DQ line inside the shooting area many times. It happens when there is a mix of steel and paper targets. The steel DQ line only applies to the steel, the shooter could move forward to shoot paper legally. Also, the rule is for the minimum distance (as you mentioned) it doesn't limit the maximum distance.

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Could one conclude that shooter closer than the mandated rule book distance is a safety issue? Perhaps the safety issue takes precedence hence the DQ.

 

Is it a stage design problem?  Having a fault line within a fault line is not something I would design or put up.  But our berms have a lot of space.

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But if you're past the line, yet still outside the minimum distance, what rule are you being DQ'd under?     The "over the line rule?" ;)

 

 

If the line is in the right spot, it's simple matter.  

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I've seen the steel DQ line inside the shooting area many times. It happens when there is a mix of steel and paper targets. The steel DQ line only applies to the steel, the shooter could move forward to shoot paper legally. Also, the rule is for the minimum distance (as you mentioned) it doesn't limit the maximum distance.

Please let me know what the current USPSA rule number is for that set up? I'm very curious. I think there used to be one about having the additional steel dq distance lines out side the shooting area, but I couldn't find anything other than what I quoted when I searched the rule book.

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10.5.17 A shot fired at a metal target from a distance of less than 23 feet, measured from the face of the target to the nearest part of the 
competitor’s body in contact with the ground. 

 

If it's more than 23 feet,No dq. Its a uspsa match with uspsa rules or its not. It's pretty simple

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If it's more than 23 feet,No dq unless the steel fault lines were part of the WSB, in which case faulting over those lines is a DQ for 5.4.1 - failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official. Its a uspsa match with uspsa rules or its not. It used to be pretty simple

 

FIFY

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1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:


Please let me know what the current USPSA rule number is for that set up? I'm very curious. I think there used to be one about having the additional steel dq distance lines out side the shooting area, but I couldn't find anything other than what I quoted when I searched the rule book.

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There is a minimum distance for the steel DQ as has been said previously (10.5.17) but there is also:

2.1.3 Minimum Distances – Whenever metal targets or metal hard cover are used in a course of fire, precautions must be taken so that competitors and Match Officials maintain a minimum distance of 23 feet from them while they are being shot. Where possible, this should be done with physical barriers. If Fault Lines are used to limit the approach to metal targets, they must be placed at least 26 feet from the targets so that the competitor may inadvertently fault the line and still be outside the 23 feet minimum distance (see Rule 10.5.17). Care should also be taken in respect of metal props in the line of fire.

There is no minimum distance for paper fault lines (except the 180 rule), so one could have a 26' steel fault line, a 23' steel DQ line, and a paper fault line directly in front of paper targets that are on the same plane as the steel.

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There is no minimum distance for paper fault lines (except the 180 rule), so one could have a 26' steel fault line, a 23' steel DQ line, and a paper fault line directly in front of paper targets that are on the same plane as the steel.

 

Where does one find Steel & Paper Fault lines? Seems like that should solve the problem - only ever seen generic fault lines.

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8 hours ago, Bkreutz said:


There is a minimum distance for the steel DQ as has been said previously (10.5.17) but there is also:

2.1.3 Minimum Distances – Whenever metal targets or metal hard cover are used in a course of fire, precautions must be taken so that competitors and Match Officials maintain a minimum distance of 23 feet from them while they are being shot. Where possible, this should be done with physical barriers. If Fault Lines are used to limit the approach to metal targets, they must be placed at least 26 feet from the targets so that the competitor may inadvertently fault the line and still be outside the 23 feet minimum distance (see Rule 10.5.17). Care should also be taken in respect of metal props in the line of fire.

There is no minimum distance for paper fault lines (except the 180 rule), so one could have a 26' steel fault line, a 23' steel DQ line, and a paper fault line directly in front of paper targets that are on the same plane as the steel.

I could not find any reference in the rule book to A DQ Line, am I missing it? 

 

the only way I could see something like you are describing being even remotely allowed would be with a level 1 match exemption and shooting boxes for each steel on a medium or short course only . For this to be done I believe the WSB wound need to dictate that metal target X must be engaged from location X metal target Y must be engaged from location Y ect. 

 

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes, specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged and specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only. Long courses are exclusively governed by 1.1.5.

 

Otherwise 1.1.5 is the rule and you may not do as you have described.

 

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed,

 

If I am missing a rule somewhere please correct me, but as it stands I believe the stage as described is not legal per the current USPSA rule book.

 

I know I probably sound like an ass and that is not my intention but internet arguments are hard to make sound jovial. 

 

Edited by MikeBurgess
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Agree with mike burgess (as usual). While I've seen this kind of thing done at local clubs from time to time, it seems pretty clearly illegal (and unsafe and unwise) to me. When we have done it, usually in the dead of winter with snow on the ground when no one wants to carry tons of walls, we use shooting boxes and specify what you can shoot from where.

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4 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I could not find any reference in the rule book to A DQ Line, am I missing it? 

 

 

 

If you didn't have a DQ line, how would you tell if the shooter was closer than 23 ft when he/she shot at steel and was DQ'ed per 10.5.17, or received a procedural for shooting closer than 28 ft per 2.1.3?

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5 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I could not find any reference in the rule book to A DQ Line, am I missing it? 

 

 

The rule for DQ is a shot within 23 feet.  23 feet from the steel in various directions is going to describe a semi-circle.  If a straight "DQ line" is presented it seems it might be 23 feet at some point, but then less or more at other points.  Maybe that's why there is no such thing.  The fault line must be a minimum of 26 feet so you can fault over it three feet (or more) at any point and still not be closer than 23 feet to the steel.

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1 hour ago, Bkreutz said:

 

If you didn't have a DQ line, how would you tell if the shooter was closer than 23 ft when he/she shot at steel and was DQ'ed per 10.5.17, or received a procedural for shooting closer than 28 ft per 2.1.3?

The same way you DQ someone for an AD striking the ground within 10' per 10.4.2, you measure it.  (yes with a measuring tape, I had to DQ a shooter last weekend for doing just this the bullet strike was 9'6" from his foot)

If the RO believes a shooter has engaged a target from too close a distance they should Stop them mark the spot the shooter was when they fired the shot then measure the distance to the metal target in question. They key thing here is that NOWHERE inside a shooting area is within 3' of being a DQable distance from a metal target, so a shooter will have had to grossly fault a line in the direction of minimum distance metal targets to be in jeopardy in the first place. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Bkreutz said:

 

If you didn't have a DQ line, how would you tell if the shooter was closer than 23 ft when he/she shot at steel and was DQ'ed per 10.5.17, or received a procedural for shooting closer than 28 ft per 2.1.3?

 

The word procedural isn't in 2.1.3. It's about course design trying to stop people from being closer than 23 ft when the shot is fired

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The only provision for a DQ for shooting at a piece of steel is covered in 10.5.17.  That distance is specified as "less than 23 feet".  You can't disqualify a competitor for shooting at a metal target from any distance greater than that, period.  There is no procedural, either. 

 

2.1.3 spells out the minimum distance that steel may be placed from a physical barrier, such as a wall, (23 feet) or from a fault line (26 feet).  Fault lines or "Steel DQ lines" placed within other fault lines to mark a minimum distance from a metal target are not legal.  The suggestion to place another fault line OUTSIDE the existing fault lines to mark the 23 foot line is to help both shooters and staff know what is too close.  This is sometimes used when competitors may want to run outside the fault lines from one position to another, but a piece of steel is visible from either location, or while transiting. 

 

Both of these rules are abundantly clear, anything else is a local rule and isn't legal in USPSA.

 

 

 

 

DistancetoSteel.pdf

Edited by mactiger
Fixed the file
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I shot the popper from inside the shooting area and DQ'd because where I'm standing, I'm about 21 feet from the popper.  You can see the "steel DQ line" about 6 feet behind me in the middle of the shooting area.  The two end fault lines and the DQ line were all painted red as well, which made it confusing.  I missed the walk-through, but did see the "DQ" line - it just didn't occur to me what it was for until I pulled the trigger on the popper during my run, noticing I looked too close to the popper.  It was also really weird because there was a paper target right next to the popper that people engaged in that first portion of the shooting box, but then had to wait to engage the popper until they were on the other side of the "DQ line".

 

Hopefully Troy's explanation will make it clear for the stage designers so they don't repeat this mistake.

 

DQ in the shooting area.jpg

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I've seen from time to time at locals where stage design unintentionally allows sight of a popper from a place in the stage unintended to be shot from and the stage brief gave a heads up that shooting it from the unintended sight line is too close and would be a DQ.  Haven't seen the issue described/shown here, but appreciative of the discussion and info.

Edited by Hammer002
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you don't get to make up rules and call it USPSA. This thread is horse manure. The 23 and 26 foot rules apply to fault lines and barriers, not to some additional lines for steel. Please read the freaking rule book and avoid BS rules.

 

I apologize but this thread is living proof that people have vivid imaginations for crap. Crazy s**t here!

Edited by Brooke
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Does the book say targets have to be outside the FFZ? (serious question)

FFZ free fire zone?

That is not a good idea. And then you have angles to consider along with shoot thrus or ground impacts with ricochets etc...

Open shooters blowing pasters off, PCC might put a muzzle thru a target that has been shot uo...
Lots of little gotchas.

Can you expound on your idea a little more?
Thanks!


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I'm subscribing to this thread with interest. As a relatively new shooter (2 years), I assumed the 23 yard rule was on the stage designer to set shooting boxes that prevent shooters from engaging poppers closer than that distance. When I help with set up, we've moved fault lines to accommodate this rule. In my limited experience, I've never encountered a second DQ line.

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