Timer Pick Up problem with PCC's

[Dave Campbell]

At some recent matches we had to give some pcc shooters reshoots because the timer did not pick up a single shot, 000 on the timer. 

Linear comps and mouse fart loads are part of the problem , but new battery's, reset the timer to highest sensitivity and still if you hold the timer at the shooters shoulder it does not register.  To get the timer to pick up shots you had to hold it almost out to the ejection port.  

My solution at the match was to let pcc shooters RO each other , because I got tired of ducking brass.  

What are other people doing?   and are you having  the same problems. 

 

 

[JAFO]

I have not had a problem picking up PCC shots on my Pocket Pro II.  I think I am set to ~15-16 on sensitivity.  I just make sure the mic is aimed towards the gun and that I'm on the shooter as much as practically possible.  Sometimes when I hand my timer off to someone unfamiliar with it, they end up holding it with the speaker and mic towards their hand.  I have seen one reshoot happen because of a bad time due to that.

[L3324temp]

No problems at all with a pact timer and we now have far more PCC shooters than pistol shooters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[toothandnail]

Never a problem, only thing we have to watch is suppressed rifles. Just have to have the timer within 5-6' on the ejection side for the last shot.

[BritinUSA]

The timer needs to pick up EVERY shot; If the competitor has a major malfunction partway through the stage and the RO was not close enough to pick up the shot before the malfunction, then its a reshoot.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

The timer needs to pick up EVERY shot; If the competitor has a major malfunction partway through the stage and the RO was not close enough to pick up the shot before the malfunction, then its a reshoot.

Depending on stage design that’s impossible with quiet PCC’s. 

[BritinUSA]

If the RO cannot accurately record the time without being so close to the competitor that they risk becoming a trip hazard, then I fail to see how the competitor can be permitted to shoot for score.

[9x45]

You have to hold the microphone above and to the right of rifle. If suppressed, then hold it over the bolt.

Edited November 2, 2017 by 9x45

[BritinUSA]

How close?

[jwhittin]

28 minutes ago, 9x45 said:

You have to hold the microphone above and to the right of rifle. If suppressed, then hold it over the bolt.

 

I have experienced this. we had to get it about a foot away. It wasn't easy to do.

Edited November 2, 2017 by jwhittin

[9x45]

Not easy at all, until the end of the stage...

[IHAVEGAS]

38 minutes ago, 9x45 said:

Not easy at all, until the end of the stage...

 

Assuming the shooter ends the stage the way you think they will.

As is, if you shoot PCC and want a reshoot just dash uprange and make the r.o. stop you for safety reasons, not unheard of with a pistol but really easy with PCC. 

[9x45]

Yup, especially not easier when that happens. I have been using my RUREADY time lately because it has a very directional long range microphone.

[IHAVEGAS]

15 hours ago, L3324temp said:

No problems at all with a pact timer and we now have far more PCC shooters than pistol shooters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

No way I could get all of the shots with some guns using one of these set to max sensitivity last weekend, and it was an easy stage to chase the shooter on, last shot with the timer on top of a quiet gun was not a problem. https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/772064/competition-electronics-pocket-pro-shot-timer?utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Shooting+-+Chronographs%2C+Wind+Meters+%26+Timers&utm_content=772064&cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-Shooting+-+Chronographs%2C+Wind+Meters+%26+Timers-_-Competition+Electronics-_-772064&gclid=CjwKCAjwhOvPBRBxEiwAx2nhLvRiJeAmYipr030CksSFnoQQJ5_4umOHHFMMEa5r1j1t56mi4m5TzRoC0p8QAvD_BwE

[teros135]

16 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Assuming the shooter ends the stage the way you think they will.

As is, if you shoot PCC and want a reshoot just dash uprange and make the r.o. stop you for safety reasons, not unheard of with a pistol but really easy with PCC. 

 

Thanks for the heads-up.  Now that we know that PCC shooters have been advised to do this, we can all be on the watch for it.  

[L9X25]

I recently had a different problem, we increased the sensitivity of the timer so that it was pretty easy to pick up the PCC shots.  The problem arose when Open shooter were shooting in the next bay, at the same time.  It would pick up their shots very consistently.  I would literally have to watch the timer as the shooter was at the last position, to make sure no extra shots were added to their string.  Not really ideal, since I am supposed to keep my eyes on the shooter.

[IHAVEGAS]

6 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

Thanks for the heads-up.  Now that we know that PCC shooters have been advised to do this, we can all be on the watch for it.  

 

I know at least one that figured it out sans coaching. Shooters are a tricky bunch 

 

With my foot speed relative to some of those guys there is nothing I can do about it even if I suspect it is coming. 

[reverse_edge]

What if we just make PCC shooters all use loundeners? 

[open17]

25 minutes ago, reverse_edge said:

What if we just make PCC shooters all use loundeners? 

 

2 or three 3/16" popple holes just forward of the barrel nut should do it.  

[reverse_edge]

6 minutes ago, open17 said:

 

2 or three 3/16" popple holes just forward of the barrel nut should do it.  

 

Should look cool in low light, too.

 

[Thomas H]

14 hours ago, 9x45 said:

You have to hold the microphone above and to the right of rifle. If suppressed, then hold it over the bolt.

 

I personally find that suppressed PCCs are the easiest to time. 

 

Appendix D8, #11:  Suppressors permitted:  No.

 

So either they take it off, or they don't run it.  Simplifies things enormously.

 

Outside of that, as an RO I haven't had any problems with timing PCCs.  Since you are standing near the shooter when the timer goes off, you keep your normal distance and watch the display out of the corner of your eye as the first several shots occur.  If it doesn't pick them up, you'll need to be closer.  You should already know the stage (whether you are a dedicated stage RO or embedded one, you should still have an idea how the stage goes) which will tell you what you will need to do as the shooter nears the end of the stage.

 

And what you need to do to be close during the shooting parts of the stage.

 

As for "The timer needs to pick up EVERY shot; If the competitor has a major malfunction partway through the stage and the RO was not close enough to pick up the shot before the malfunction, then its a reshoot. "  ---that's not a true statement.  The word "needs" is what makes it untrue.

 

Sure, we would prefer to pick up every shot in the course of fire.  That being said, most of the time it ISN'T necessary--as long as you pick up the last shot, you are fine.  Indeed, sometimes malfunctions occur in the middle of the stage requiring the stage to end.  That's pretty rare, however.  So most of the time, being there at the end of the stage and picking up the last shot works perfectly well.

 

That doesn't mean we shouldn't TRY to get all the shots on the timer.  However, if you don't, that doesn't mean that you are doing it wrong.  In the vast majority of cases, the timer doesn't need to pick up every shot.  Just the last one.

 

 

 

 

[BritinUSA]

15 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

As for "The timer needs to pick up EVERY shot; If the competitor has a major malfunction partway through the stage and the RO was not close enough to pick up the shot before the malfunction, then its a reshoot. "  ---that's not a true statement.  The word "needs" is what makes it untrue.

 

Sure, we would prefer to pick up every shot in the course of fire.  That being said, most of the time it ISN'T necessary--as long as you pick up the last shot, you are fine.  Indeed, sometimes malfunctions occur in the middle of the stage requiring the stage to end.  That's pretty rare, however.  So most of the time, being there at the end of the stage and picking up the last shot works perfectly well.

 

That doesn't mean we shouldn't TRY to get all the shots on the timer.  However, if you don't, that doesn't mean that you are doing it wrong.  In the vast majority of cases, the timer doesn't need to pick up every shot.  Just the last one.

 

If it happens just once and the competitor gets a reshoot then you, the RO, have changed the outcome of the match. 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

That doesn't mean we shouldn't TRY to get all the shots on the timer. 

 

Not sure what is best. On stages where it is practically possible to stay on top of a quiet gun I do not like creating the distraction associated with being always in the shooters view, and I do not like taking focus away from other aspects of running the shooter. 

 

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

 

If it happens just once and the competitor gets a reshoot then you, the RO, have changed the outcome of the match. 

 

It does happen and the competitors do get reshoots, this will not change unless rules deal with the quiet guns & the issue is considered during stage design. 

 

Worst I've seen the problem is during the rainy day shoots, not sure if some timers are waterproof? Bagged timers were iffy even on a stand and shoot classifier. 

[Thomas H]

2 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

 

If it happens just once and the competitor gets a reshoot then you, the RO, have changed the outcome of the match. 

 

Every reshoot has the potential to change the outcome of the match.  This does not stop us from giving reshoots.

 

As such, we attempt to do our best.  However, in no place is there a requirement that the timer must pick up every shot.  The fact that you don't like it doesn't change that lack of requirement.  There is merely a requirement that the last shot be picked up by the timer, and if it is not, then a reshoot is in order.  (That's in the rules--which means that it is expected that sometimes, a reshoot for that reason will occur.  If you don't like it, feel free to attempt to change the rules to require that the timer pick up all shots.  Good luck with that, by the way.)

 

Quiet PCCs are something we have to deal with.  There are different potential solutions---but that being said, after running PCCs in two majors and approximately 24 club matches this year, I have yet to need to change the timer sensitivity level nor be a distraction to the shooter in a manner justifying a reshoot---and I haven't needed to order a reshoot on a PCC yet. 

 

If you know your stage, you can figure a way to stay close enough to pick up the majority of shots the majority of the time.  Many PCCs are loud enough it isn't an issue at all.  For the ones that are very quiet, the shooter already knows that the RO is going to have to get close.  If you are worried about it, ask the shooter their general stage movement plan, so you have an idea where you will need to be at any given time, and where you will need to be at the end to catch the final shots.  Watch for ports, doors, and shooting around walls.   I've had better luck holding the timer low, microphone angled upward toward the ejection port, than I have holding it anywhere else--and with PACT timers, it means I can see the display change on every shot out of the corner of my eye, so that's where I hold it normally (though on other guns, not as closely). 

 

Is there a potential for a reshoot?  Yup.  However, since we aren't taping the timer to the gun itself, that's how it is going to be.

 

The rule is clear.  And no, there isn't a requirement that the timer pick up every shot on the stage.

[IHAVEGAS]

14 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

Every reshoot has the potential to change the outcome of the match.  This does not stop us from giving reshoots.

  Many PCCs are loud enough it isn't an issue at all.

 

Or missed foot fault procedural, safety call, not seeing the guy shoot the screen instead of though the port etc.. I really do not know if sacrificing ideal position for viewing to get ideal position for timing is a good approach for safety and accurate scoring.

 

Reasonably loud sure does make things simple.