Open major loads- placebo or problems?

[jtrump]

So I worked up two loads with some powder I had on hands,  Gun is a STI DVC Open .38 -  Running Super Comp

 

The first being a 124g Precision Delta JHP, with 7.2g of Autocomp @ 1.235OAL-  171PF

 

The second load is 115g Precision Delta JHP with 10.8g of AA#7 @ 1.235 OAL- 172PF

 

I'm new to open and all, but christ sakes the dot is all over the place and the impulse into the palm of the hand is pretty sharp, feels like I'm catching a baseball bat.    Accuracy is great, and it runs after the extractor was tuned.

 

I was hoping the AA#7 was going to make more gas and feel much more flat than the WAC, but the dot is literally everywhere.

 

Also on Doubletaps/ controlled pairs my 2nd shot is always low,   the gun had an 8lb spring in it,  I replaced it with a brand new 8b Wolff spring, yet it's shorter than the spring that's been in the gun?   Brass ejection distance lessened a good bit.

 

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

Getting used to the dot takes a little time.

 

Since there is less muzzle movement, compared to a SS, might have a tendency to lighten up on your grip -

maintain a tight grip with your weak hand, and the practice - the dot will settle down if you do your part     

[jcc7x7]

You might be driving the gun down.

Some times when I switch from Limited/SS to open I find myself pushing the gun back down ( some say over controlling recoil etc)

Personally I find with the open gun to just let it run, not necessarily a looser or lighter grip just not driving the gun as much and letting the comp do the work.

 

Watch the dot on the trigger break it will usually tell you what your doing wrong with your grip.

Also as stated before there is a learning curve to shooting your open gun and getting the dot to track

Good fortune with open , "it additive"

[jtrump]

Jcc you might be right,  I feel the need to push the gun back down after a shot,  maybe because it's loud and the pressure you feel from you,  my brain thinks subconsciously this is a BIG GUN I need to steer it after a shot to shoot faster.   Hmmph   I've put it on target and just pulled the trigger my lil dot goes up and down it dosen't leave the glass, as soon as I start to ramp on it, or add any side to side movement my dot wants to do the same thing.  

[GrumpyOne]

Open guns are harsh. If the dot is bouncing predictably during the cycle, then that should be no issue. Of course, we all want the minimal dot movement, but what is minimal? 

 

My load with 38super is 10.5 of N105 with a MG 115JHP at 1.235. I don't even really notice the dot moving for me anymore.

[jtrump]

53 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

Open guns are harsh. If the dot is bouncing predictably during the cycle, then that should be no issue. Of course, we all want the minimal dot movement, but what is minimal? 

 

My load with 38super is 10.5 of N105 with a MG 115JHP at 1.235. I don't even really notice the dot moving for me anymore.

 

See this is what a friend of mine who shoots open master told me, he said if it's set up right the dot shouldn't be moving much if any.     I'm going to switch to a C-more,  I like the view much better then the Deltapoint pro, even though the damn thing is accurate as shit.   I just hate experimenting with a dozen powders,  rather be practicing!

[cecil]

try using a variable spring

[Bkreutz]

Try playing around with different loads (not different powder, just different loads) I run 9 major using Autocomp and 124gr bullets. I found that I didn't like the dot movement at 170 PF, (or 171,172,173) but at 174 the movement calmed down. I'm thinking I hit the "Goldilocks" place for my gun (STI Trubor). But like has been mentioned, it might be a holdover from Limited where you're driving the gun to manage recoil.

[10ring]

You wouldn't think it was that big of a deal but it sure took me a while to comfortably shoot the open gun.  Like what was said - try to let the gun do it's thing without you driving it.  A good neutral grip works well.

[jcc7x7]

Double plugging helps me a bunch with an open gun also.

Doesn't seem as harsh 

[Banacek]

6 hours ago, Bkreutz said:

Try playing around with different loads (not different powder, just different loads) I run 9 major using Autocomp and 124gr bullets. I found that I didn't like the dot movement at 170 PF, (or 171,172,173) but at 174 the movement calmed down. I'm thinking I hit the "Goldilocks" place for my gun (STI Trubor). But like has been mentioned, it might be a holdover from Limited where you're driving the gun to manage recoil.

This is a good idea.  I have a 9mm Major DVC and the lower PF 166, did not work well with dot movement.  I am up to a 172PF and it is working great.  You will have to latter your loads and see what works well for you.  I would recommend doing a video session to watch your muzzle flip in slow motion.  

[Shadyscott999]

Grip the crap out of the gun
A dot that doesn't move at least some is hard to shoot fast
Some comps like the wick twisted, try hotter loads
play with spring weights

[3gunDQ]

^this. Grip the gun HARD.

 

I have owned just a few open guns and all of them like PF around 175ish

[jtrump]

Roger,  Thanks  for the input.

[Mikeski]

I ran 8.6gn of hs-6 under a 124 jhp from precision delta at 1.235oal in my DVC open which gave me a 174pf and a very flat gun. It's all about the right amount of gas to get the comp to work. Now the same load in my atlas open gun only pushes about 157pf so I've been making a load for that.  

[jtrump]

18 hours ago, Mikeski said:

I ran 8.6gn of hs-6 under a 124 jhp from precision delta at 1.235oal in my DVC open which gave me a 174pf and a very flat gun. It's all about the right amount of gas to get the comp to work. Now the same load in my atlas open gun only pushes about 157pf so I've been making a load for that.  

 

I'm on the fence between trying hs6 or 3n37 which I can obtain locally and forgo the hasmat fee at a reasonable price.    I have about 1k 124g PDs, and 3k 115's.    I've never tried hs6 or 3n37 but hear either will work.   I think I need to find the load and as mentioned work up the power factor a bit and maybe play with some springs.

[jtrump]

On 10/8/2017 at 4:14 PM, jcc7x7 said:

Double plugging helps me a bunch with an open gun also.

Doesn't seem as harsh 

 

The sound dosen't seem to bother me, that I can tell.  It's loud but, idk.   I'm gripping the gun, like I always do,  If I were to be using a steel grips I probably wouldn't have any skin left hehe.

[Mikeski]

19 minutes ago, jtrump said:

 

I'm on the fence between trying hs6 or 3n37 which I can obtain locally and forgo the hasmat fee at a reasonable price.    I have about 1k 124g PDs, and 3k 115's.    I've never tried hs6 or 3n37 but hear either will work.   I think I need to find the load and as mentioned work up the power factor a bit and maybe play with some springs.

HS-6 load is what was recommended to me specifically for the DVC open. I have not changed anything with the gun. Springs and all are still stock. 

[zzt]

jt, if it is hitting your hand like a baseball bat, you have too much gas jetting out the front.  You should try HS-6.  It will be in between the WAC and AA7.  In my guns, HS-6 shoots softer than WAC, but the dot wiggles a little.  I find that annoying.  So I use WAC or Silhouette, because the dot tracks straight up and down.  I'm okay with the little harder hit to the hand.

 

When I first started shooting Open I tried hard to control muzzle rise using grip pressure.  I even added thumb rests.  If I grip hard with the weak hand and pressure the thumb rest, my second shot is quite low.  If I apply almost no pressure to the rest and let it serve only to locate my hand, the dot comes right back to where it is supposed to be.

 

There is no substitute for experimentation.  You comp design, recoil spring, grip and load are all part of the equation.  Another gun might require a different setup.  My backup gun does not feel or shoot the same as my main gun.  I now see the value of having two identical guns as primary and backup.

 

Welcome to Open.  It's a hoot. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

7 minutes ago, zzt said:

  You should try HS-6.  It will be in between the WAC and AA7.  In my guns, HS-6 shoots softer than WAC 

 

The only powders I 've tried in my TruBor 9mm Major are HS6 and WAC.

 

The HS6 is a little gentler, but I didn't see enough advantage and switched over to WAC - very nice powder   

 

You just have to get used to the OPEN gun - different than a Production of Limited gun  -   takes time    

[jtrump]

1 hour ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

The only powders I 've tried in my TruBor 9mm Major are HS6 and WAC.

 

The HS6 is a little gentler, but I didn't see enough advantage and switched over to WAC - very nice powder   

 

You just have to get used to the OPEN gun - different than a Production of Limited gun  -   takes time    

 

I liked WAC but @ 7.2g behind a 124 I don't feel like I was getting enough gas, and dot movement was quite noticeable.  Very accurate however.   Also being as I'm running .38 super comp I feel like using another powder to take advantage of the extra case volume would be optimal.   I'm on the fence on settling for hs6/3n37 for .38 super comp.     

 

I know you love your Autocomp Jack, and I also think it's a great powder but maybe better suited for 9mm when I could get the comp working for me more with another powder?

[3gunDQ]

Dude, if you are gunna pay for VV then get some 3n38.

[chevrofreak]

1 hour ago, 3gunDQ said:

Dude, if you are gunna pay for VV then get some 3n38.

This.  The only reason not to is if you have to special order it.   The only 9major suitable VV I can get locally is N350, but ordering a 4lb jug of 3n38 wound up less expensive per pound anyway. 

[jtrump]

The previous owner was running 3n37, gun shot unbelievably flat,  I'm questioning should I deviate.   It is also available locally, that's the only reason I would get it over 3n38 to try it out along with a pound of hs6 to try.

[jtrump]

12 hours ago, zzt said:

jt, if it is hitting your hand like a baseball bat, you have too much gas jetting out the front.  You should try HS-6.  It will be in between the WAC and AA7.  In my guns, HS-6 shoots softer than WAC, but the dot wiggles a little.  I find that annoying.  So I use WAC or Silhouette, because the dot tracks straight up and down.  I'm okay with the little harder hit to the hand.

 

When I first started shooting Open I tried hard to control muzzle rise using grip pressure.  I even added thumb rests.  If I grip hard with the weak hand and pressure the thumb rest, my second shot is quite low.  If I apply almost no pressure to the rest and let it serve only to locate my hand, the dot comes right back to where it is supposed to be.

 

There is no substitute for experimentation.  You comp design, recoil spring, grip and load are all part of the equation.  Another gun might require a different setup.  My backup gun does not feel or shoot the same as my main gun.  I now see the value of having two identical guns as primary and backup.

 

Welcome to Open.  It's a hoot. 

 

I need to try this semi-relaxing my week hand and maybe not putting the Bob Vogel grip from hell on it.   It's hard to solve a problem like this without someone who knows whats going on with you.   I've got a local guy who's a M class open shooter, and he's a legitimate Master.  He's saying if my dot is moving something is wrong, that basically if it moves much at all something is out of sorts.  I keeps saying to build a load, and we will work the gun around it.  But I never get to see him except for match's ;p.