Lets talk about training

[CrashDodson]

4 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

All of this gun handling looks pretty efficient and aggressive enough to produce GM level performance. Have you performed this same series of gun handling drills in live fire? If so, what is the time difference. If there is a significant delay after the gun is fully mounted an on target then you are either not gripping the gun hard enough, or visually focusing on the wrong thing in dry fire.

I have not shot these types of static drills live in a long time outside of match classifiers.  I can definitely do some of that this weekend and report back.  While I can do a .6 draw in dry fire, I find that my draw to first shot on easy targets live is usually .8 - .9ish.  I do at times seem to have a hesitation on first shot in a match situation.  

 

When you say visually focusing on the wrong thing in dry fire, would that mean target vs front sight type focus?

[CrashDodson]

4 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

The other thing to consider is that your hand/arm position is not "Hands Relaxed at Sides". You might be able to get away with this staged hand position most of the time at local matches. But don't be surprised if you get called out for it and required to adjust your hands to a real "Hands Relaxed at sides" position while attending a major.

While I have never been called out on this at a match, major or local,  I know that a more proper hands at sides stance is something I should work towards.  Im hoping for a change to the rule book to allow for hands below edge of the belt

[CHA-LEE]

12 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

I have not shot these types of static drills live in a long time outside of match classifiers.  I can definitely do some of that this weekend and report back.  While I can do a .6 draw in dry fire, I find that my draw to first shot on easy targets live is usually .8 - .9ish.  I do at times seem to have a hesitation on first shot in a match situation.  

 

When you say visually focusing on the wrong thing in dry fire, would that mean target vs front sight type focus?

 

In dry fire our targets are usually close and we can get away with using a hard target focus while cranking out rock star first shots. Its also easy to get sucked into not really paying attention to the sights in dry fire because we KNOW that the gun isn't going to fire and there will not be a "Result" on the target to measure. The time difference between Dry and Live fire is also attributed to the requirement of gripping the gun hard to manage recoil or transitioning your visual focus back to the sights to confirm alignment before firing the shot.

 

If you are not gripping the gun HARD in the same manner as you would in live fire, that is issue #1. If you are not paying attention to the sight alignment the same way as you would in live fire, that is issue #2. Both of these issues combined can easily translate to an additional .20 - .30 added to your first shot in live fire.

Edited August 31, 2017 by CHA-LEE

[drewbeck]

31 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

I do see where you are coming from.  I do notice that if I dont continuously practice these fundamentals that I suffer.  After I got back from a recent vacation it took several reps to get my 4 aces back down below 2 seconds.  Until I can do these fundamentals on my desired par time cold I will not be satisfied.  I am very close but not quite there yet.  

 

At the same time these skills are the skills tested in classifiers.  I have been focusing on these skills because in the past I have struggled with classifiers both mentally and technically.  Honing these skills has boosted my confidence shooting classifiers and knowing I have the skill set to shoot 100% classifiers seems to calm my mind a bit when its go time.  I agree that skills such as sub 2 sec 4 ace drills have little practical use in a field course.  I am also honing these skills so that I can move through the classification system and hopefully stop concerning myself with it.  I know classification should not be a concern but for what ever reason I think it is a mental road block for me.  I could care less about winning A class or M class at a major match.  For me its the top or nothing, so I want to have consistent GM level gun handling.  Since focusing on these skills the last two months my classifier results have jumped from 70's to 90's.  I can shoot GM level stuff in practice but I have yet to shoot a 100% classifier score in a match. My highest one to date I believe is 94%.  

 

I understand the want to do a specific drill time cold in dry fire but I think it would be more beneficial to set the goal and track the times for cold runs in live fire.  Live fire is the real test and will show you where you're at, dry fire can be cheated much easier if your not careful.  The other thing is that really being able to rip off cold dry fire runs at speeds outlined in stoegers books really has little relevance if your personal dry fire vs live fire time conversion factor is larger than his.  For example if he has el pres dry fire goal at 3.xx whatever seconds but a 100% run is 5.0 seconds down zero, I think practicing a more realistic dry fire goal closer to your live fire goal time is better because you're able to actually focus on shot calling and solid repeatable runs.  If however you practice dry firing it in 3.0secs but your live fire is 6 seconds is your practice realistic?  I think a person is much better off incrementally ratcheting both live and dry fire down together so you can actually see and measure how dry fire training translates to your live fire cold times.

 

Having really fast goal times for dry fire isn't necessarily a bad thing, I just think most people try to do the actions in the allotted time without realizing the biggest benefit is what they should be learning and seeing as things start to speed up.  If you start to lose your "awareness" of everything going on in order to reach a time goal I think you've then turned off the ability to learn in the process.  I think one of the biggest benefits of dry fire is the ability to really focus on and observe what is happening throughout the process without the distraction of recoil.  If the focus is on the timer vs observation, you're missing out on the real value of it.  

 

I get the mental hangups on classification but at the same time if you go to a major and are able to consistently win your class or the one above you, you'll be bumped up without ever having to worry about classifiers in a match.  

 

[CrashDodson]

22 minutes ago, drewbeck said:

 

I understand the want to do a specific drill time cold in dry fire but I think it would be more beneficial to set the goal and track the times for cold runs in live fire.  Live fire is the real test and will show you where you're at, dry fire can be cheated much easier if your not careful.  The other thing is that really being able to rip off cold dry fire runs at speeds outlined in stoegers books really has little relevance if your personal dry fire vs live fire time conversion factor is larger than his.  For example if he has el pres dry fire goal at 3.xx whatever seconds but a 100% run is 5.0 seconds down zero, I think practicing a more realistic dry fire goal closer to your live fire goal time is better because you're able to actually focus on shot calling and solid repeatable runs.  If however you practice dry firing it in 3.0secs but your live fire is 6 seconds is your practice realistic?  I think a person is much better off incrementally ratcheting both live and dry fire down together so you can actually see and measure how dry fire training translates to your live fire cold times.

 

Having really fast goal times for dry fire isn't necessarily a bad thing, I just think most people try to do the actions in the allotted time without realizing the biggest benefit is what they should be learning and seeing as things start to speed up.  If you start to lose your "awareness" of everything going on in order to reach a time goal I think you've then turned off the ability to learn in the process.  I think one of the biggest benefits of dry fire is the ability to really focus on and observe what is happening throughout the process without the distraction of recoil.  If the focus is on the timer vs observation, you're missing out on the real value of it.  

 

I get the mental hangups on classification but at the same time if you go to a major and are able to consistently win your class or the one above you, you'll be bumped up without ever having to worry about classifiers in a match.  

 

Some good stuff here to chew on for a while, thank you.  I do think there needs to be a balance but at the same time I think a lot of people never push the speed as far as they can.  Perhaps because of their strict front sight front sight front sight way of thinking.  If someone doesn't learn what it feels like to go fast, then I dont think they will ever be able to obtain the speed gains that are possible.  Dry fire is a good place to push to the ragged edge safely then go out and see what you can actually do live.  

 

I shot el prez at a match in July.  I slightly fumbled the reload and shot 58 points in 5.92 seconds.  Clearly slower than the 3.6 par time I generally run in dry fire.  I need to find a way to get my best runs and cold runs of a skill closer to each other.  It seems like just pounding out repetitions of a skill, even while getting faster at that skill, is not going to take me to the next level.  Now if I was to dry fire el prez at a 5.0 par time it would feel like an eternity.   I will run it a few times with the par set at 5 and see what it feels like to ensure A hits.  Granted there are a lot of factors like the use of scaled targets and the distance between them.  I only have so much space to work with.  

 

I recently read an old interview with seeklander and Eric G.  He said that he doesn't use a par timer in dry fire (the little dry fire that he does).  I think I need to balance my dry fire more with a better mix of static drills and simulated course type stuff with no par time.  

[Jimboslice]

What is your current class in the division your training for?

Open A

 

How much do you really dry fire?

30-45 mins a day: 4-6 times a week depending on what's going on. I haven't done as much as I should have in the past month.

 

How long have you been dry firing at that level?  

5 months

 

What type of dry fire program are you doing?  

random small stages to work on getting in/out of positions, reloading out of positions moving both right and left, and going through my list of "stuff I suck at"

 

How much live fire training are you doing?  

2-3 times a week, 2-400 rounds depending on how I feel and what type of drills that I'm doing.

 

What classes have you taken?

I took a Ron Avery class like 4 years ago (don't remember anything specific from it) and went to the Pro Shooter Experience in May

 

Do you feel your current training is sufficient for your current goals?  

No, I really need to step up physical training (getting in shape) and being more consistent in training

 

Do you do any mental specific training?  

No, just a lot of air gunning around the house and visualization around the office

 

Do you know the training routine of any top level shooters?  

not in specific detail but I know JJ dry fires a whole bunch (jokingly titles himself the 11yr running dryfire national champ) 

[Jimboslice]

17 hours ago, CrashDodson said:

I shot el prez at a match in July.  I slightly fumbled the reload and shot 58 points in 5.92 seconds.  Clearly slower than the 3.6 par time I generally run in dry fire.  I need to find a way to get my best runs and cold runs of a skill closer to each other.  It seems like just pounding out repetitions of a skill, even while getting faster at that skill, is not going to take me to the next level.  Now if I was to dry fire el prez at a 5.0 par time it would feel like an eternity.   I will run it a few times with the par set at 5 and see what it feels like to ensure A hits.  Granted there are a lot of factors like the use of scaled targets and the distance between them.  I only have so much space to work with.  

 

just a thought but....how much time did the fumbled reload cost you? 1.0 second? If it did cost you that 1 sec. then, to me, you're right where you need to be as far as the combination of speed and accuracy. I mean the goal is to always get better and faster but with the way I calculated it (if my guesstimation was anywhere close to accurate), 1.2 draw .25 splits and .3 transitions, 2.0 reload with only 2 points down, that fumbled reload is what cost you entirely. 

 

If that's not the case then it could be a combination of slower splits and/or transitions in live fire than in dry fire. I know for me, I struggled a good bit on transition speed in live fire this summer and started to try and train it out because I could rip .17 splits on target not accurately and my transitions were like .5-.6 between 2 that were less than 3 ft. apart @ 10 yards.  So I slowed down my splits on target to get better hits and just increased my transition speed because even if I'm shooting it in the same amount of time, I can let the gun settle just a little bit longer to get a more accurate 2nd shot. 

 

[CrashDodson]

At the end of practice yesterday I ran a few drills for fun

 

Bill drill:

1.67,  1.82 and 1.74

 

4 Aces

2.55,  2.17 , 2.05 and 2.13

 

I could never get 4 aces below 2 sec like I do in dry fire.  My best first shot was .7 something.  Not the .6 draw par that I run in dry fire.  The draw drill that I run in dry fire is just draw to sight picture so perhaps .7-.8 is not that bad live.  On the 4 aces its evident that I feel like I need to see more shooting live then I feel I need to see in dry fire.  

[CHA-LEE]

Crash> All of the live fire drill times you listed, assuming that you are getting all of your hits, are at a GM level. As I mentioned before, your gun handling skills are currently at a GM level in practice. If you eliminate the gun handling and shooting speed as items keeping you from making GM, the only thing left is mental. You can continue to dry and live fire practice until your hands bleed but that isn't going to fix whatever mental issues you are having during a match which is currently holding you back the most.

[CrashDodson]

Thanks @CHA-LEE.  Any tips for working through that?  I have considered working with a mental training coach but its a little cost prohibitive and just unsure if it would help.  There are a lot of choices out there for sports psychology / mental training.  I have been trying to work on a trigger or mental switch to get me into, for lack of a better term, the zone.  

[CHA-LEE]

Crash> I think your best option is to open the wallet and get some professional training. It may seem expensive up front, but how much time, matches and ammo are you willing to throw away trying to figure it out on your own. Smart training investments can save you a significant amount of effort and money in the long run.

[Jake Di Vita]

13 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

Thanks @CHA-LEE.  Any tips for working through that?  I have considered working with a mental training coach but its a little cost prohibitive and just unsure if it would help.  There are a lot of choices out there for sports psychology / mental training.  I have been trying to work on a trigger or mental switch to get me into, for lack of a better term, the zone.  

 

I think you should learn to call your shots 100% of the time before worrying about mental training. That is not something that someone else will really be able to teach you. You could have the strongest mind in the world, but if you can't call your shots consistently and accurately the strong mind isn't going to make a hell of a lot of difference.

 

Remember you've gone from C class to what you are now in a little over a year. It's extremely unreasonable to be upset with your progress in any way.

 

This crap takes time. You've already been to classes. Keep your nose to the grindstone.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Jake Di Vita

[CrashDodson]

 

I still think shot calling is voodoo meant to keep us mortals confused!  I ran some mini stages yesterday and had one round tag a no shoot square in the face on a 10ish yard half covered target.  Did not see it in the sights at all.  I had to look around the private range I was at to make sure someone wasn't on top of the berm with a supressed gun f*cking with me.  Something as simple as watching whats in front of your face is so hard to do.  

 

I do agree that shot calling is important, if not the most important skill I can learn.  I have also learned I cant pay someone to teach me how to do it.  Its there in front of me but I cant get my brain to register the data yet.  It happens sometimes, like random daydreaming, but it does not happen on every target.  I know it takes time and as you also know Jake, I am not very patient .

 

Besides shot calling the other thing I know is holding me back is what I would call a lack of sense of urgency.  I cant figure out how to shoot a stage with urgency or aggression or whatever you may call it.  I shot my local match this past Sunday, and while I won limited I had a (sandbagging) B class shooter only a few % behind me, but he shot the match 6 seconds faster than me.  A local open GM shot the match 16 seconds faster than me .  I have area 4 this weekend and a second or two a stage is really going to show itself over 12 stages.  Shooting a match mostly clean works at most local level matches but at an area match I am going to have to shoot it clean, faster.  Not sure if I am shooting too cautious or what.    

 

What do yall do to get in the zone or match mode or whatever you want to call it?  I rehearse the stages as much as I can but I also dont see vivid mental images that others say they can see.  For me its actually looking at the stage and going through the process in my head but I cant close my eyes and see the stage or targets or anything like that.  When I took a class with JJ we talked about this and he asked what color my front fiber was, green.  He said try to at least visualize the green dot on the target if I  couldn't visualize the whole gun, but I cant seem to do that either.  I think I am mentally defective lol.  When I step up to the line I dry fire once, rehearse the stage again while looking at the stage/targets and try to take a couple of deep breaths.  I dont ever actually feel ready, quiet, at peace or whatever one may call it.  

 

    

[CHA-LEE]

If you can't memorize or mentally visualize a stage plan with your eyes closed or with your back to the stage, then that is a major problem. Not being able to memorize the stage plan forces you to shoot and move through the stage from a 100% conscious state. If you are consciously deciding what to do through the whole stage run then its very unlikely that you will also be able to call your shots effectively simply because you are already consumed all of your free mental bandwidth thinking about everything else.

 

Consciously "Thinking" trough a stage run while performing the run will dramatically impact your overall performance. Its not uncommon to waste a couple seconds per field course stage while doing that.   

[CrashDodson]

I can definitely memorize the stage.  I am not consciously making decisions when shooting a stage, i dont think.  I could look at a stage for a while then easily draw it on paper.  I can draw past stages I have seen before.  But I can not visualize, with my "minds eye", anything.  Let alone visualize shooting a stage at a match.  JJ said he can close his eyes and see the stage in his mind.  I can not do that.  Its one reason I dont like reading fiction, because I cant visualize the book. 

 

Like if someone said "visualize a blue hat", thats not something I can do.  I do on occasion find myself day dreaming, and seeing things in my minds eye.  But I can not do it on demand.  

[wtturn]

 

 
Besides shot calling the other thing I know is holding me back is what I would call a lack of sense of urgency.  I cant figure out how to shoot a stage with urgency or aggression or whatever you may call it.  I shot my local match this past Sunday, and while I won limited I had a (sandbagging) B class shooter only a few % behind me, but he shot the match 6 seconds faster than me.  A local open GM shot the match 16 seconds faster than me [emoji33].  I have area 4 this weekend and a second or two a stage is really going to show itself over 12 stages.  Shooting a match mostly clean works at most local level matches but at an area match I am going to have to shoot it clean, faster.  Not sure if I am shooting too cautious or what.    
 

I can speak to this.

My default is very conservative and cautious. Accuracy came easy but it was a struggle to learn to be fast.

Last winter, a local veteran GM open shooter made a very helpful suggestion, which was to take a few local matches and only focus on one thing or one goal. Use them to experiment and try something new, whether it was technique, mindset, approach, whatever.

So for the next few matches I showed up and my sole focus was to have the lowest raw time in production. Results be damned, that's the only reason I showed up that day.

And a funny thing happened. My points stayed about the same. I was shocked. But I started whipping people with whom I previously ran neck and neck. I started winning stages on the regular.

I was blown away by the potential I had been keeping locked up out of fear. When I took the shackles off and just gave myself the freedom to attack a stage and be really aggressive, the results improved as a side effect. Plus shooting became fun again instead of being stressful and nerve wracking.

Now I am not saying to be careless. There are growing pains as you improve speed. I had to learn some throttle control and when to rein it back in or fire up the afterburner when the situation calls for it, but give yourself the freedom to do what you know how to do. What you train hard to do.

Local matches are the perfect setting to experiment with this and just let the artificial limitations go. The opportunity cost is low and the potential reward is high!

[B_RAD]

On 9/5/2017 at 5:39 PM, wtturn said:

 

 

 

I can speak to this.

My default is very conservative and cautious. Accuracy came easy but it was a struggle to learn to be fast.

Last winter, a local veteran GM open shooter made a very helpful suggestion, which was to take a few local matches and only focus on one thing or one goal. Use them to experiment and try something new, whether it was technique, mindset, approach, whatever.

So for the next few matches I showed up and my sole focus was to have the lowest raw time in production. Results be damned, that's the only reason I showed up that day.

And a funny thing happened. My points stayed about the same. I was shocked. But I started whipping people with whom I previously ran neck and neck. I started winning stages on the regular.

I was blown away by the potential I had been keeping locked up out of fear. When I took the shackles off and just gave myself the freedom to attack a stage and be really aggressive, the results improved as a side effect. Plus shooting became fun again instead of being stressful and nerve wracking.

Now I am not saying to be careless. There are growing pains as you improve speed. I had to learn some throttle control and when to rein it back in or fire up the afterburner when the situation calls for it, but give yourself the freedom to do what you know how to do. What you train hard to do.

Local matches are the perfect setting to experiment with this and just let the artificial limitations go. The opportunity cost is low and the potential reward is high!

 

 

After just finishing up Area4 and reviewing my videos, I'm gonna try this out for the next several matches. I want to get faster. Especially on transistions. 

[B_RAD]

What is your current class in the division your training for?

Production Master

 

How much do you really dry fire?  

1 hr a day about 5 times a week. I should do more but usually make excuses.

 

 

How long have you been dry firing at that level?

About 4 mos

  

 

What type of dry fire program are you doing?

Drills out of Stoeger or Anderson book

 

 

How much live fire training are you doing?  

Once a week (maybe)

 

 

What classes have you taken?

Vogel and Mink

 

 

Do you feel your current training is sufficient for your current goals?  

NO!

 

 

Do you do any mental specific training?

Stuff from Anderson's book/pod cast.  I feel it's helped. 

 

 

Do you know the training routine of any top level shooters?

From what I gather they dry fire everyday for around 1-3 hours and live fire 1-3 times a week.

 

 

I've either got to step up my dry fire program or be content with my current level of skill and match finishes.  Just shot Area 4 and was 20^th overall in Production.  Never seen some of the things they had there.  This was only my 2nd non-club match.  The swinger on Stage 1 that was only available at the top of the arc was something new and I took 6 passes to pop off 3 shots because I was scared to have a mike.  Now I realize it would have been better for my score to leave after the first two passes/two shots and take a mike.  The out and back swingers w/no shoots on Stage 11 and the drop/turn w/no shoots were new to me as well.  Overall I'm happy with my performance because I felt like I shot were my current skill level is. I only started shooting USPA this year so, I have to remember that and cut myself some slack.

 

 

What do I need to work on?(I added this one)

1. Calling my shots!

2. Exploding when moving. 

3. Getting my hand to the mag while moving immediately rather than after a step or two.

4. Leave earlier

5. Be ready to shoot sooner 

6. Transitions

7. Lose 60lbs!  (but I like donuts!)

8. Quit switching freaking guns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (but I'm an idiot)

Edited September 14, 2017 by B_RAD

[CrashDodson]

Ive always shot limited so dont have the gun switching problem but could see that as an issue. In November i am going to get a dot for my limited gun and see if it helps me refine my shot calling. 

[B_RAD]

1 hour ago, CrashDodson said:

Ive always shot limited so dont have the gun switching problem but could see that as an issue. In November i am going to get a dot for my limited gun and see if it helps me refine my shot calling. 

Well,... I think I may be done......hoepfully!  

 

I decided to switch back to cz Thursday. While dry firing Friday I decided I didn't want to waste time getting caught back up with a new gun. So, I decided to stick with the plastic block.  Sold the CZ. 

 

 

As for calling shots, I think it's gonna make a huge difference. I'm getting close to getting it I think. 

 

I've heard people say a dot does help learn. Let us know if does. 

[CrashDodson]

Shot calling is frustrating.  For something that should be so easy, I mean the data is right there in your face.  I have the ah-ha moments where I feel something wasnt right and I shoot good makeups at times.  But as far as knowing the difference in a A and a C, I for sure cant do that.  I can see maybe 25% of my "D"s usually if they are low, I dont see the left and right as much in the sights as I notice the fiber low in the notch.  

[CHA-LEE]

Are you SURE you are not blinking as the shot fires. You can't call your shots if your eyes are closed during the shot. Go to the range with a buddy and use some clear lens glasses. Shoot some drills while your buddy takes slow motion video of the side of your head so you can see if you are blinking or not.

[Jimboslice]

I'm still not 100% all the time with my shot calling but shooting an open gun really helped get the point across of seeing where it's lifting off the target.

 

A drill that Travis T. mentioned in a class that I took was to just stand like 5-10 yds. away from the berm and shoot some rounds without aiming at anything to get your eyes use to seeing that dot/front sight lift from a position. Then once you "warm-up,"  put a target at 25yds (or a distance where you can't see the holes clearly) and one right next to where you're standing. Then for every shot you make @ 25yds mark the location where you called the shot on that target right next to you then go compare the 2 targets after 5-10 shots. I've tried this and it seems to help.

 

Also I've heard (I think it was a Stoeger idea) but haven't tried, a twist on this where you can shoot it at 10-15 yards but you put a shot up target a yard in front of it so you can't physically see where your shot's went.

[B_RAD]

@CHA-LEE, let me ask you a question.  How accurate can one expect to be when calling their shots?  I've went to the range a couple of times in the last month or two with it being a goal. I'll set up at 15/25yds, draw and fire 2-4 rounds at one target and try to call my shots without looking at the target.  I can meet all the par times listed in skills and drills for doubles, etc. and my hits are good. All A's and close C's.  I usually don't call my shots well though.  I'll be thinking upper left of A zone and I'll be lower left. Maybe I'm calling at the end of the recoil arc rather than the exact moment when the sight starts to lift? 

 

Assuming a person is not blinking and calls the shot at the proper time, is a 3" circle from the called spot good? 

Edited September 19, 2017 by B_RAD

[motosapiens]

On 8/31/2017 at 9:38 AM, Wesquire said:

 

Good stuff. Any chance that you've timed yourself using a production rig? Draws and reloads are the biggest thing holding me back. I hover around 0.9 second draw and 1.1 second (inconsistent) reload.

? Holding you back from what? You can easily make M or GM or win major matches with those draw and reload times (assuming you can move and shoot quickly and accurately).

Edited September 19, 2017 by motosapiens