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Lets talk about training


CrashDodson

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This is expanding on the "Do you dry fire thread".  I think all of us can benefit from a discussion like this.  This is not intended as a short thread full of one sentence answers.  If you are training hard and have lofty goals, myself and I am sure others, want to know what your doing to get there.  

 

If you read one of the recent front sight's they ask several people how much they practice.  A lot of the top GM's responded with about an hour a day dry fire.  This is at least when they are preparing for a nationals level event.  

 

I find that it is hard to get most top level guys to actually talk seriously about their own training.  They seem to be mostly vague answers.  On the extreme end Hwansik told me he is practicing about 6 hours a day between, live fire/dry fire/visualization/analyzing video.  Hwansik said he built his training plan around Ben's books.  There was a recent video on facebook where the world shoot guys said they shot between 5k-10k live fire practice rounds on average preparing for the world shoot specifically.  In Bens podcast he mentioned shooting up to 600 rounds a day preparing for the world shoot splitting his live fire training between static drills and mini stage type work.      

 

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What is your current class in the division your training for?  How much do you really dry fire?  How long have you been dry firing at that level?  What type of dry fire program are you doing?  How much live fire training are you doing?  What classes have you taken? Do you feel your current training is sufficient for your current goals?  Do you do any mental specific training?  Do you know the training routine of any top level shooters?  

 

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Limited/M

 

Dry fire 30-60 minutes twice a day 6-7 days a week.

 

Been doing this level of dry fire for the last two months.  Was doing about 30-60 minutes once a day 5 days a week prior.  Have been dry firing seriously for about a year.

I split my dry fire between Anderson's first 12 drills from refinement and repetition and Bens new dry fire book.  For Andersons drills I take a timer and run each drill for about 3-5 minutes depending on my available time.  I changed to this format after taking a class with Anderson about a month ago.  Before that I was running each drill for 10-15 minutes until I ran out of time. For Bens drills I work through the book until I run out of time, doing the drills until I feel I have achieved a new par time or level of consistency.  I have a small two car garage in which I have about 50% of the available space to work with.  I dont have much room for movement, maybe 3 yards. 

 

I was in C class for about 6 months until I started taking dry fire more serious.  I went from C to A in December after a few months of solid dry fire.  It then took 4 months or so of solid dry fire almost exclusively using andersons 12 drills during that time to reach M.  I think the refinement and repetition drills are perfect for improving your classifier skills.  Bens drills work better for a more well rounded skill set.  It comes down to your goals at the time.  I wanted to get classification out of the way as a mental burden to move on to improving my overall skill set.  I still have the goal of making GM by the end of the year but not focusing solely on Andersons drills while preparing for A4 and Nationals.  

 

Until the last two weeks or so dry fire has been 95% of my training due to time constraints.  I am currently trying to work in live fire 2-3 days a week at least until after nationals.  I am trying to do at least an hour per session which ends up being around 200-300 rounds.  For live fire training my current plan is to do about two static drills per session that can be measured along with a few mini stages or drills that incorporate movement.  

 

As a result of my dry fire I have greatly improved at stand and shoot (classifier) type shooting but my field course results have not improved much from A to M.  I am hoping the increased live fire practice will help me improve my field course results.  I still struggle with weak/strong hand classifiers.    

 

Last year I took both of Ben's classes.  This year I have taken classes with Ben, JJ and Anderson.  I am currently considering taking a formal mental training course.  I am reading or listening to audio books about performance/learning.  I am currently listening to Josh Waitzkin's "The art of learning" for the second time back and forth to work.  Earlier in the year I read "Peak" by Anders ericson and with winning in mind (2nd time)/freedom flight by Lanny Basham.  I think that getting out of your own way and perfecting your mental game is the key to competing at the top level of the game once your shooting skills are at a high level.  

 

Current dry fire par times using 1/3rd scale targets at a simulated distance of about 10 yards.

Draw .6 (both hands at sides and surrender)

Turn and draw .6

Strong draw .6

weak draw .9

Burkett reload .6

reload .9

4 aces 1.8

Bill drill 1.6

Six reload six 3.5

El Prez 3.5

Six reload strong 3.7

six reload weak 4.0

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What is your current class in the division your training for?

Open GM

 

How much do you really dry fire?

:45 Hour Per Day (Normally 2 animated episodes of something, Right now its Rick and Morty). Currently I do not dry fire on days I live fire. I need to change that.

 

How long have you been dry firing at that level?  

12 Months or so

 

What type of dry fire program are you doing?  

Mostly random mini stages set up for entry and exit, but I will do block type training when working on a specific issue.

 

How much live fire training are you doing?  

2 Days a week, ~ 400 rounds per session. 1 Local a week normally as well.

 

What classes have you taken?

None. I do plan to take a Bill Drummond class at some point.

 

Do you feel your current training is sufficient for your current goals?  

No, need to step up consistency of training as well as increasing intensity.

 

Do you do any mental specific training?  

No

 

Do you know the training routine of any top level shooters?  

I follow Eric G's live fire training (Found via Mike Seeklander podcast interview). Set up a stage you can run a ton of different ways. Never run it twice the same way. This forces a match pace type of training as well as the randomness you will need to deal with at a match.

 

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@CrashDodson Live fire is 90% stage work and 10% block drills. Drills are normally some form of sped up dot drill (Dot makes it easy), transition drills (P - S - P -S - P kinda stuff), distance bill drills.

 

I am looking at increasing difficulty in dry fire. A lot of my work right now seems to be more focused on consistency than pushing speed right now. I need to change that as Ive seen a negative pattern in my performance at majors this summer. The focus is always the same (100% on the task at hand).

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1 hour ago, CrashDodson said:

Limited/M

 

Dry fire 30-60 minutes twice a day 6-7 days a week.

 

Been doing this level of dry fire for the last two months.  Was doing about 30-60 minutes once a day 5 days a week prior.  Have been dry firing seriously for about a year.

I split my dry fire between Anderson's first 12 drills from refinement and repetition and Bens new dry fire book.  For Andersons drills I take a timer and run each drill for about 3-5 minutes depending on my available time.  I changed to this format after taking a class with Anderson about a month ago.  Before that I was running each drill for 10-15 minutes until I ran out of time. For Bens drills I work through the book until I run out of time, doing the drills until I feel I have achieved a new par time or level of consistency.  I have a small two car garage in which I have about 50% of the available space to work with.  I dont have much room for movement, maybe 3 yards. 

 

I was in C class for about 6 months until I started taking dry fire more serious.  I went from C to A in December after a few months of solid dry fire.  It then took 4 months or so of solid dry fire almost exclusively using andersons 12 drills during that time to reach M.  I think the refinement and repetition drills are perfect for improving your classifier skills.  Bens drills work better for a more well rounded skill set.  It comes down to your goals at the time.  I wanted to get classification out of the way as a mental burden to move on to improving my overall skill set.  I still have the goal of making GM by the end of the year but not focusing solely on Andersons drills while preparing for A4 and Nationals.  

 

Until the last two weeks or so dry fire has been 95% of my training due to time constraints.  I am currently trying to work in live fire 2-3 days a week at least until after nationals.  I am trying to do at least an hour per session which ends up being around 200-300 rounds.  For live fire training my current plan is to do about two static drills per session that can be measured along with a few mini stages or drills that incorporate movement.  

 

As a result of my dry fire I have greatly improved at stand and shoot (classifier) type shooting but my field course results have not improved much from A to M.  I am hoping the increased live fire practice will help me improve my field course results.  I still struggle with weak/strong hand classifiers.    

 

Last year I took both of Ben's classes.  This year I have taken classes with Ben, JJ and Anderson.  I am currently considering taking a formal mental training course.  I am reading or listening to audio books about performance/learning.  I am currently listening to Josh Waitzkin's "The art of learning" for the second time back and forth to work.  Earlier in the year I read "Peak" by Anders ericson and with winning in mind (2nd time)/freedom flight by Lanny Basham.  I think that getting out of your own way and perfecting your mental game is the key to competing at the top level of the game once your shooting skills are at a high level.  

 

Current dry fire par times using 1/3rd scale targets at a simulated distance of about 10 yards.

Draw .6 (both hands at sides and surrender)

Turn and draw .6

Strong draw .6

weak draw .9

Burkett reload .6

reload .9

4 aces 1.8

Bill drill 1.6

Six reload six 3.5

El Prez 3.5

Six reload strong 3.7

six reload weak 4.0

 

Can you post a video of your draws? 

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59 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

 

Current dry fire par times using 1/3rd scale targets at a simulated distance of about 10 yards.

Draw .6 (both hands at sides and surrender)

Turn and draw .6

Strong draw .6

weak draw .9

Burkett reload .6

reload .9

4 aces 1.8

Bill drill 1.6

Six reload six 3.5

El Prez 3.5

Six reload strong 3.7

six reload weak 4.0

 

Just curious, can you share your live fire times on some of those drills?  It would give us some idea of what our par times should be.

 

On dry fire I try to keep it honest and as I'm sure most find, dry fire times are much faster than live fire times.

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What is your current class in the division your training for?

Limited GM, Open GM

 

How much do you really dry fire? 

Dedicated gun handling dry fire (Stationary Draws, Reloads, etc) is very infrequent compared to most. Maybe once or twice every other week and even then its only 10 - 20 minutes. I feel that I shoot enough matches on the weekends to keep my gun handling skills maintained.

 

I do integrate movement "dry fire" practice into my every day activities. I usually do this at work while walking around the office. I will replicate shooting on the move foot movement, entering/exiting foot work, and transitioning my upper body aggressively with my legs. This is all done without even having a gun on me as I don't think my coworkers would like that.    

 

How long have you been dry firing at that level?

3 - 4 Years. 

 

What type of dry fire program are you doing?

I don't use a predefined dry fire program. When I am honing Gun Handling skills I will focus on the things I know I have issues with or awkward situations that I see in stages. I maintain a list of things I know I "Suck At" and build my Dry/Live fire training around resolving those issues. 

 

How much live fire training are you doing?

I usually shoot at least 1 if not 2 club matches a week. If there isn't a match I usually do some Live fire practice instead. My live fire practice is usually biased towards stage based stuff where I setup a stage and shoot it a bunch of times in several different ways. I usually build the stage around shooting or movement scenarios I know I have issues with so I can work on improving those skills. Once again, this is done by leveraging my "Suck List" for stuff to practice.

 

What classes have you taken?

I have taken a LOT of practical shooting training classes over the years. I make it a point to take at least one training class from a top trainer every year. I have taken classes from many different people over the years but the most prominent people that most would know are Ron Avery, Manny Bragg, Todd Jarrett, Matt Burkett, and Bob Vogel. I have also attended training from the same guys year after year. From my training experience and learning style Manny Bragg is the most effective trainer for me. Everyone learns differently so what works best for me may or may not work best for you. I think its important to maintain a regular training class frequency with an effective trainer on a reoccurring basis regardless of your skill level. 

 

Do you feel your current training is sufficient for your current goals?

Yes

 

Do you do any mental specific training?

No. But my day job forces me to use the same basic mental processes that are leveraged in practical shooting matches. So the gray matter is getting a daily work out on those things.  

 

Do you know the training routine of any top level shooters?

Yes, but it really doesn't matter because what someone else requires to maintain or improve their skills doesn't always apply to what I need. Some guys need to do a metric shit ton of gun handling dry fire to maintain those skills, I don't. So why force an excessive gun handling dry fire program into my own training process? The process of improving or maintaining skills should be unique to everyone as we are all different. Instead of trying to poach a training program from someone else, work towards defining a training program that is optimized to what YOU need. Yes that takes time and effort but in the end you will be far better off than simply trying to force yourself into doing a training program that is optimized for someone else.

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@CHA-LEE Thank you for your participation.  I agree that everyone is different and their requirements could be different.  The goal of the post is to see what works for other people in order to build our own plan.  Perhaps someone has a process that works for person X but person X has never heard of or thought of that approach before.  Not all of us are lucky enough to have the time and finances to try the countless different training methods that one could dream up.  Instead of throwing time and money down range I see no harm in trying to fast track the learning process by gleaning little training nuggets from others willing to share their mistakes and accomplishments.

 

The difference in top level and good performers, in any field, is they have a strong mental game and they have found the key or "secret" to the form of purposeful practice that works for them.  This secret may not work for the next person but its a good place to base their journey on. 

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I present quite a bit of training myself, both in my day job and in the practical shooting sports, and the number one issue I see with students wanting to get better verses actually getting better is the inability for them to objectively assess their skills to identify their own issues. These are the people that perform random Dry & Live fire drills and hope that any random mixture of training in itself will magically fix all of their issues. 

 

The primary skill that separates the people who excel in anything verses the ones that don't ultimately comes down to their ability to objectively review their skill performance and formulate a focused training plan to improve their skills. 

 

This basic learning skill is absent in most people. Why that is, I don't know. But I suspect that its related to being spoon fed everything most of their life. The skill of learning is no different than any other skill. To get good at learning things, you need to hone and perfect your learning skills. That concept is hard for a lot of people to understand because they have never been tasked with learning things on their own. Being spoon fed a learning process and assigned homework to perform isn't the same as objectively assessing the situation and formulating your own "homework" based on the observed data.    

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36 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

The primary skill that separates the people who excel in anything verses the ones that don't ultimately comes down to their ability to objectively review their skill performance and formulate a focused training plan to improve their skills. 

 

This basic learning skill is absent in most people. Why that is, I don't know. But I suspect that its related to being spoon fed everything most of their life. The skill of learning is no different than any other skill. To get good at learning things, you need to hone and perfect your learning skills. That concept is hard for a lot of people to understand because they have never been tasked with learning things on their own. Being spoon fed a learning process and assigned homework to perform isn't the same as objectively assessing the situation and formulating your own "homework" based on the observed data.    

 

I couldn't agree more.  Your response is one of the most profound things I have read on this forum in comparison to the circle jerk that most posts become.  Perhaps for me because it directly correlates to a book I am listening to right now.

 

 I am self taught in my career, and very good at what I do.  But shooting and computer network engineering seem to be different animals for me.  In my job if I want to learn how to configure some new gizmo, I read the documentation, learn the theory behind it and then repeat the process until its burned in.  My past experience with other technology generally decreases the time it takes to master something new.

 

 I have approached shooting the same way.  For example I have trouble shooting steel targets.  So I read, talk to others, watch videos, take classes and have shot a small fortune of rounds at plate racks and other steel targets without much improvement.  The art of shot calling still alludes me, no matter how many shot calling specific drills I do. 

 

I have the same problem with people I work with in what seems like employees inability to learn what I see as basic troubleshooting skills.  For shooting, the roles are reversed and I am the one struggling to solve my performance deficits.  I have been and maybe still are in the random dry fire and live fire drills camp hoping for improvement.  More than willing and able to put in the work, just not able to figure out yet what that work should be.  The secret, is without a doubt, the art of learning how to learn and how to practice without a coach there to guide us like you have available in many other areas of sport.      

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Wesquire said:

 

Can you post a video of your draws? 

 

Here are some clips from tonight.  Sorry for the crappy camera angle, my garage is a war zone right now due to work being done on my house from a recent storm.  

 

 

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Here are some clips from tonight.  Sorry for the crappy camera angle, my garage is a war zone right now due to work being done on my house from a recent storm.  
 
 


What did you learn tonight in your practice? You've put in the work to master the first .6-1.0 seconds of a stage but then what? Not an attack on you just a question to think about. At a certain level , draws and reloads should be thought of more as an item of risk. I.e. Failure to execute will cost you something vs gain you anything. Practice them enough to where they don't cost you but focus your efforts on the improving the time consuming part of a stage which is movement. I'm by no means an expert but I don't waste any more time than necessary on fundamental handling skills.

Another way to look at it is like practicing your launch at the start of the Daytona 500, no one wins it in the first 10 feet.


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What is your current class in the division your training for?

U Limited.  Should be B after a couple more matches.

 

How much do you really dry fire? 

25-45 minutes 5 days a week.

 

How long have you been dry firing at that level?

17 months

 

What type of dry fire program are you doing?

Mostly drills out of Stoeger's book.  Once in a while I run some Anderson drills.  Recently I've been concentrating on things I suck at:  reloads, transitioning R to L etc.

 

How much live fire training are you doing?

300 round session once a week if I don't shoot a match.  I try shoot one match a month on average.  I work on movement more in live fire.

 

What classes have you taken?

I took a class from a GM before I shot my first match.  Since then nothing.  It's time for some training.

 

Do you feel your current training is sufficient for your current goals?

I think my training is but my mental focus isn't.  My goals were lofty a year ago but reality has since tempered them.  I'd like to make A class next season.  I'm 49 with a 6 year old daughter and severe arthritis in my right shoulder.  Available free time and my body limit what I can accomplish.  Too many reloads and draws aggravates my shoulder.  Fast surrender draws hurt like hell.  SHO is a bitch since I have little strength with my arm extended like that.

 

Do you do any mental specific training?

No.

 

Do you know the training routine of any top level shooters?

Not really.  Just what I've read in Stoeger and Anderson books.

 

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11 hours ago, CrashDodson said:

 

Here are some clips from tonight.  Sorry for the crappy camera angle, my garage is a war zone right now due to work being done on my house from a recent storm.  

 

 

 

Good stuff. Any chance that you've timed yourself using a production rig? Draws and reloads are the biggest thing holding me back. I hover around 0.9 second draw and 1.1 second (inconsistent) reload.

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11 hours ago, CrashDodson said:

 

Here are some clips from tonight.  Sorry for the crappy camera angle, my garage is a war zone right now due to work being done on my house from a recent storm.  

 

 

 

All of this gun handling looks pretty efficient and aggressive enough to produce GM level performance. Have you performed this same series of gun handling drills in live fire? If so, what is the time difference. If there is a significant delay after the gun is fully mounted an on target then you are either not gripping the gun hard enough, or visually focusing on the wrong thing in dry fire.

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12 hours ago, CrashDodson said:

 

Here are some clips from tonight.  Sorry for the crappy camera angle, my garage is a war zone right now due to work being done on my house from a recent storm.  

 

 

That looks good!  Are all those start beeps on the same delay?  Looks like you may have anticipated some of them. Which we all do. You definitely got the move at the start of the beep down though!  To help me with not anticipating the beep and starting a tad early, I set it on a random delay set to like 3-4 sec.  You may be doing the same. Its hard to tell where the beep really starts vs you moving on the video.  

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12 hours ago, CrashDodson said:

 

Here are some clips from tonight.  Sorry for the crappy camera angle, my garage is a war zone right now due to work being done on my house from a recent storm.  

 

 

 

Nice.  This is EXACTLY what I look like in my head when I do these drills!  Lol.

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The other thing to consider is that your hand/arm position is not "Hands Relaxed at Sides". You might be able to get away with this staged hand position most of the time at local matches. But don't be surprised if you get called out for it and required to adjust your hands to a real "Hands Relaxed at sides" position while attending a major.

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I present quite a bit of training myself, both in my day job and in the practical shooting sports, and the number one issue I see with students wanting to get better verses actually getting better is the inability for them to objectively assess their skills to identify their own issues. These are the people that perform random Dry & Live fire drills and hope that any random mixture of training in itself will magically fix all of their issues. 
 
The primary skill that separates the people who excel in anything verses the ones that don't ultimately comes down to their ability to objectively review their skill performance and formulate a focused training plan to improve their skills. 
 
This basic learning skill is absent in most people. Why that is, I don't know. But I suspect that its related to being spoon fed everything most of their life. The skill of learning is no different than any other skill. To get good at learning things, you need to hone and perfect your learning skills. That concept is hard for a lot of people to understand because they have never been tasked with learning things on their own. Being spoon fed a learning process and assigned homework to perform isn't the same as objectively assessing the situation and formulating your own "homework" based on the observed data.    
*LIKE*

This is the stone cold truth.
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23 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

The other thing to consider is that your hand/arm position is not "Hands Relaxed at Sides". You might be able to get away with this staged hand position most of the time at local matches. But don't be surprised if you get called out for it and required to adjust your hands to a real "Hands Relaxed at sides" position while attending a major.

 

I have never seen that happen at a major, ever. Most open guys are like Crash or much much much worse.

Edited by Maximis228
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.      
 

 
What is your current class in the division your training for?  How much do you really dry fire?  How long have you been dry firing at that level?  What type of dry fire program are you doing?  How much live fire training are you doing?  What classes have you taken? Do you feel your current training is sufficient for your current goals?  Do you do any mental specific training?  Do you know the training routine of any top level shooters?  
 


Production GM

30-60 min each night except on match days. Sometimes I'll take a day off as required to recover, but it's infrequent. I listen to my body.

I have dry fired seriously since mid 2014.

I loosely follow the Stoeger books, supplemented by my own programming depending on my short term goals and overarching focus for the year.

I live fire a few times a month except during major match season prep or pre-match, in which case I live fire 3-4 times a week for very short, single drill sessions.

I've trained with Ben twice.

My training is showing progress but probably not sufficient with which to win a national championship.

I don't do any mental specific focused training, but I feel like that's included in the normal training process if you're doing it right.

I'm aware generally what the top guys do, but not specific to any one guy. I probably can guess what Ben's training looks like.

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28 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

 

I have never seen that happen at a major, ever. Most open guys are like Crash or much much much worse.

 

Lucky you then. I have seen it happen several times over the years and almost every time it happens the shooters performance shits the bed because they are distracted by having to put their hands/arms in what to them is an abnormal position.

 

Eliminate the potential performance reducing distraction by using a "Normal" hands relaxed at sides position. Or not and eventually get shafted at a match.

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13 hours ago, drewbeck said:

 


What did you learn tonight in your practice? You've put in the work to master the first .6-1.0 seconds of a stage but then what? Not an attack on you just a question to think about. At a certain level , draws and reloads should be thought of more as an item of risk. I.e. Failure to execute will cost you something vs gain you anything. Practice them enough to where they don't cost you but focus your efforts on the improving the time consuming part of a stage which is movement. I'm by no means an expert but I don't waste any more time than necessary on fundamental handling skills.

Another way to look at it is like practicing your launch at the start of the Daytona 500, no one wins it in the first 10 feet.


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I do see where you are coming from.  I do notice that if I dont continuously practice these fundamentals that I suffer.  After I got back from a recent vacation it took several reps to get my 4 aces back down below 2 seconds.  Until I can do these fundamentals on my desired par time cold I will not be satisfied.  I am very close but not quite there yet.  

 

At the same time these skills are the skills tested in classifiers.  I have been focusing on these skills because in the past I have struggled with classifiers both mentally and technically.  Honing these skills has boosted my confidence shooting classifiers and knowing I have the skill set to shoot 100% classifiers seems to calm my mind a bit when its go time.  I agree that skills such as sub 2 sec 4 ace drills have little practical use in a field course.  I am also honing these skills so that I can move through the classification system and hopefully stop concerning myself with it.  I know classification should not be a concern but for what ever reason I think it is a mental road block for me.  I could care less about winning A class or M class at a major match.  For me its the top or nothing, so I want to have consistent GM level gun handling.  Since focusing on these skills the last two months my classifier results have jumped from 70's to 90's.  I can shoot GM level stuff in practice but I have yet to shoot a 100% classifier score in a match. My highest one to date I believe is 94%.  

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