Neomet Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 (edited) Okay, there has to be a fix for this. We are seeing a large increase in PCC shooters (yea) but with that an unacceptable level of runs where not a single shot registers on the timer or clearly the last sequence is not picked up. (The D class shooter who finishes dead last on every other stage but crushes the second best stage time on one). This results in PCCers bringing twice the ammo so we can shoot everything twice, inaccurate results, and huge doubts about the validity of match results because of a general lack of confidence that the timer accurately picked up the last shot of your and your competitors' runs. This has gotten bad enough that conscientious ROS are riding up on the backs of competitors in ways that require a marriage license in 13 states. What I am looking for here is a technology fix, not the "train your ROs better " answer. Can this be done with turning the sensitivity of the chronos way up without ending up with extra time from the Open shooter in the next bay? Selfie poles?? Directional mics on timers??? What if anything is working out there? Edited August 20, 2017 by Neomet Link to comment
Hawk21 Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Preach brother.....my pcc is .40 so I have never had a problem but my buddy's 9 had it happen twice this past weekend. Lucky for him he clipped a no shoot so was glad for the re-shoot. Second time I saw the timer was not moving before he ever started his mandatory reload. I'm brand new to uspsa so I won't have any input on the fix but can attest to the problem for sure. Link to comment
Bullet56A Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 I use a CED timer turned up. Works very well on PCC and rimfire rifle in steel Challenge equally as well in USPSA on the PCC's. Never pickup the next bay. Link to comment
Flatland Shooter Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 From the shooter's perspective, adding a muzzle brake to direct some of the blast back towards the timer has greatly reduced my number of reshoots. Mine has saved me a lot of ammo. From a timer perspective, turning up the sensitivity may help but just about any timer will pick up the last shot if held near the ejection port. On tricky, multiple possible paths to follow stages, letting the RO know your plan will allow them to come in close enough to catch your last shot. Around here, the RO's are getting good at evaluating the stage to see where they need to be once the shooter is finished. I know you indicated you do not want to "train" you RO's, but we have folks with suppressors in outlaw matches getting timed without a lot of problems. Link to comment
BritinUSA Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 (edited) I've seen this at a local match, various timers were tried but nothing was working. Catching just the last shot is problematic, if the competitor has to stop part way through due a malfunction then they are going to end up with a reshoot as the timer may not have been close enough to pick the final shot. Holding the timer that close to the ejection port could also distract the shooter. Edited August 20, 2017 by BritinUSA Link to comment
toothandnail Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 As Flatland said, we have a couple guys who shoot silenced rifles , have the timer on the ejection port side within 6-8' for the last shot, hasn't been a problem. Cant see how a PCC would be quieter?? Sounds like the sensitivity is waaaay to low. Link to comment
Neomet Posted August 20, 2017 Author Share Posted August 20, 2017 (edited) I should probably add that the problem is usually made much worse where the stage design winds up with the shooter in a position where the RO can not get on the right side, usually due to barricades of some sort. A stand and deliver classifier is way less of an issue than field courses. As to training we normally try to get seasoned folks on the clock but we average around 100 shooters a match with no dedicated ROs and like I said, even we experienced ones have trouble at times. Non-comped 16" barrels are the worst. Edited August 20, 2017 by Neomet Link to comment
Neomet Posted August 20, 2017 Author Share Posted August 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, BritinUSA said: I've seen this at a local match, various timers were tried but nothing was working. Catching just the last shot is problematic, if the competitor has to stop part way through due a malfunction then they are going to end up with a reshoot as the timer may not have been close enough to pick the final shot. Holding the timer that close to the ejection port could also distract the shooter. It does, frankly it is annoying. The other potential issue with that is a shooter having what he knows is a bad run can easily move into the RO (on accident of course) and score a reshoot. I know....unsportsmanlike conduct but intent is hard to prove when someone is that close. Link to comment
BritinUSA Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 One solution may be to use an iPhone with a shot timer App and plug in a directional microphone to help pick up the shots... Link to comment
Neomet Posted August 20, 2017 Author Share Posted August 20, 2017 Yeah, that is along the lines of what I was thinking. I may just need to get a couple different times and try them all out under game situations. Link to comment
BritinUSA Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 It's going to be a fine line between picking up the shots you want and discarding the shots from another berm. Another option would be a Bluetooth microphone that could be clipped to the shooters hat. Link to comment
nickbfishn Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Put the timers on pcc shooters belts? Link to comment
Aircooled6racer Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Hello: Turn the sensitivity up on the timer. Have the RO check to see how far away they can get and still pickup the shots. I do this for any gun to make sure the timer is working. My PCC is very quiet but it can be picked up if you hold the timer up on the right side of the shooter about shoulder to head height. The sound goes up and out to the right. It can be picked up at 4 feet away or so. Just something the RO's have to play with to get used to PCC's or even heavy bullets in Production guns at minor velocities. And yes the RO's will have to learn how to do this so have them look at the timer to see how far away they can get to pickup the shots. Thanks, Eric Link to comment
Roy T Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Neomet said: It does, frankly it is annoying. The other potential issue with that is a shooter having what he knows is a bad run can easily move into the RO (on accident of course) and score a reshoot. I know....unsportsmanlike conduct but intent is hard to prove when someone is that close. I know adapting to new stuff can be a pain (coming from an old fart) but I have started to shoot the dreaded PCC and i use the CED with the wrist band attachment to practice with on my left wrist (I am right handed, like all normal people) if your club has any of these maybe you can figure out a way to tag the shooter with it and use a random start. There are enough very smart (devious) people who shoot this game and I am sure we will adapt and overcome this. Let us know what you come up with I am an RO and I don't like to crowd a shooter because when that buzzer goes off the mind sometimes discards all those stage plans you made and we both wind up someplace we did not plan on. Link to comment
rishii Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 We use the pocket pro 2 timers and set the sensitivity to cowboy loads and even with that the ro's gotta be on the shooter during the run Link to comment
L9X25 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 You guys are practically impossible to please! I have a solution that places all of the responsibility on the PCC shooter (as others have demanded), re-chamber for .357 Sig (or 9x25 if you really want to solve the problem) and all of your picking up the shot problems are solved! The RO can stand back in the crowd and still pick up the shots. ;-) Link to comment
Roy T Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Seems as though I have used just that technique before with friends who tried to take what hearing I had left after uncle Sam took his share. And oh what fun it was to chrono their loads under a tin covered canopy Link to comment
Neomet Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 Roy, they get waived through chrono along with anyone running 9 grains of Longshot in their SC. Link to comment
Hawk21 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, L9X25 said: You guys are practically impossible to please! I have a solution that places all of the responsibility on the PCC shooter (as others have demanded), re-chamber for .357 Sig (or 9x25 if you really want to solve the problem) and all of your picking up the shot problems are solved! The RO can stand back in the crowd and still pick up the shots. ;-) I haven't been to a range yet that allows bottleneck rounds on steel so give us another option! Seriously though the test fire for a sensitivity check on the timer at the start of the first stage option makes the most sense. Link to comment
L9X25 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Hawk21 said: I haven't been to a range yet that allows bottleneck rounds on steel so give us another option! News to me! Link to comment
Neomet Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 I'm thinking something like this plugged into the microphone jack of a timer might work?? https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-ATR-6550-Condenser-Shotgun-Microphone/dp/B002GYPS3M/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1503335978&sr=8-6&keywords=boom+mic+for+iphone Link to comment
davsco Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 i shoot PCC from time to time and have run lots of PCC shooters. just have to get that timer in close to the ejection port for the last shot. so far i haven't gotten in anyone's way and it's just the small price a PCC shooter pays for having a quiet gun. Link to comment
BritinUSA Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 That might work, though if you wanted to use it on an iPhone you may need an adapter. Link to comment
BritinUSA Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 minute ago, davsco said: …ust have to get that timer in close to the ejection port for the last shot. As mentioned above, you don't always know when/where the last shot will occur. Think of malfunctions etc. if the competitor has to stop part way through a course you won't have an accurate time unless the timer is next to the ejection port the entire time. This is the problem that the OP is trying to resolve. Link to comment
Neomet Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 Paul, I was hoping it would plug into the audio jack of a shot timer if they have one. I never checked on the ones we use at our range. Link to comment
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