Extra shots on a stop plate in ICORE

[varminter22]

This is not a complaint, but rather an observation and question.

 

On Stages 6 and 7 (Steel Challenge 1 and Steel Challenge 2), we had shooters that shot more than once at the stop plate.  The scorekeeper indicated that the shooter did not need follow-up shots at the stop plate because the shooter had already hit it, and indicated subsequent shots did not count; they reviewed (backed up) the timer. 

 

Their reasoning was thus:  The "stop" plate is just that - when hit, time stops no matter how many further shots fired. 

 

I might have missed it, but I found nothing in the ICORE Rule Book that addresses this. 

 

I did find, however, in Appendix D of the Steel Challenge Rules (https://steelchallenge.com/steel-challenge-Rules-Home.php), the following: 

QUOTE

Sound-Actuated Timing: “Sound-actuated” timing uses conventional (USPSA-type) shot timers that “hear” each shot. The competitor’s elapsed time stops with the last shot fired. Timers will not be backed up for multiple hits on the stop plate or hits after the stop plate. The time stops with the LAST SHOT FIRED.

UNQUOTE

 

Now, I fully realize ICORE is NOT Steel Challenge and the above rule technically does not apply to an ICORE steel-challenge-type stage.

 

But in the absence of an ICORE rule on the issue, what do you think should be the rule on "steel challenge-TYPE" stages?  Should a shooter's time stop after the last shot fired?  Or, if the shooter fires unnecessary shots at the stop plate, should the time be backed up and the shooter given the lesser time for score? 

 

Edited August 5, 2017 by jhgtyre
Edited to add that this post was originally in a thread on the NW ICORE Regional in Richmond California

[jhgtyre]

4 hours ago, varminter22 said:

But in the absence of an ICORE rule on the issue, what do you think should be the rule on "steel challenge-TYPE" stages?  Should a shooter's time stop after the last shot fired?  Or, if the shooter fires unnecessary shots at the stop plate, should the time be backed up and the shooter given the lesser time for score? 

I don't think it is wise to assume that the absence of a rule warrants the adoption of a similar sports rules.  I know ICORE was sort of developed to be a mashup of various other shooting sports so I can see the temptation to assume the rules of the "parent" sports but I think that is a dangerous path.

I think that "roll the clock back" nonsense (even if it was in the rule book I would think it was nonsense) was a practice at IRC.  Maybe it was a rule at one time but now I can't find it in the rules either.

[varminter22]

Oh, I agree, jhgtyre.  

 

But I also agree that "roll the clock back" is nonsense. 

[revoman]

If the WSB states that time stops when stop plate is hit then extra hits don't count and you back the timer up.

If time continues after the stop plate is hit then you should be able to go back and pick up a missed plate and engage the stop plate again if you are going by last shot fired.

[jhgtyre]

I moved these posts re: stop plate rules here.

[jhgtyre]

18 hours ago, revoman said:

If the WSB states that time stops when stop plate is hit then extra hits don't count and you back the timer up.

If time continues after the stop plate is hit then you should be able to go back and pick up a missed plate and engage the stop plate again if you are going by last shot fired.

I get what you are saying but I don't think a WSB should trump the rules of the sport.  You shouldn't be able to create a new game out of ICORE, or any shooting sport, just by putting what amounts to new rules in a WSB.

[MWP]

If it's coming up, it needs to be addressed by the rule book. If it's not in the rule book, it needs to be brought to the board. 

 

My opinion: if you fire a shot, you answer for that time. 

[varminter22]

4 hours ago, MWP said:

If it's coming up, it needs to be addressed by the rule book. If it's not in the rule book, it needs to be brought to the board. 

 

My opinion: if you fire a shot, you answer for that time. 

 

Agreed. 

 

And the Steel Challenge rule seems adequate to me. 

[revoman]

ICORE is ICORE not Steel Challange, USPSA, IDPA or IPSC. That is why it was created. Let's not try to add other  disciplines rules into to the mix.

[AzShooter]

Go  for it  Revoman.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.  I was the rules coordinator for 4 years.  It's easy to have rules implemented but you don't want to micro manages the sport.

[varminter22]

On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 6:35 AM, revoman said:

ICORE is ICORE not Steel Challange, USPSA, IDPA or IPSC. That is why it was created. Let's not try to add other  disciplines rules into to the mix.

 

I certainly realize that.  But WHO, pray tell, is trying to add other discipline's rules into the mix?  

 

THERE IS NO ICORE RULE on this issue, except to say that time stops on LAST shot fired.  I was simply referring to the "nearest" rule I could find for discussion purposes.  After all, the two stages in question were actually named "Steel Challenge 1" and "Steel Challenge 2." 

 

Certainly IF you fired multiple shots at a popper ("powering it down"), you would be held accountable for the time it took to fire those extra shots; the RO darned sure would NOT "back up the timer because you didn't need to fire extra shots. 

 

NO WHERE can I find ANYTHING (in ICORE rules) that says if you hit a steel plate and continue firing at it we will not hold you accountable for the extra shots.  In fact, you would be held accountable for every shot fired. 

 

[varminter22]

On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 10:05 AM, AzShooter said:

Go  for it  Revoman.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.  I was the rules coordinator for 4 years.  It's easy to have rules implemented but you don't want to micro manages the sport.

 

Okay. So, what is the rule?  Damned if I can find it. 

 

Time stops on the last shot fired, correct? 

 

Where does it say that if you fire more shots than necessary, we will back up the clock and NOT hold you accountable for the time it took you to fire unnecessary shot(s)? 

 

I'm pretty confident there was nothing in the written stage brief (the match director was summoned to make the call).  And frankly, I think it should be an ICORE rule. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by varminter22

[harleytech]

Earlier this year, proposed rule changes were brought before the board to codify Steel Challenge type stages and par time stages. The rule book has penalties that cover overtime shots and failure to hit a stop plate. It was decided not to adopt these changes so as to give Match Directors flexibility in stage design. Review Capter 2 " The course of fire will be explained to the shooters by a complete written description of the course of fire and/or a walk through from the Range Officer." 4.3. Requires stages and their descriptions must be set up clearly. Make things easy to understand. 

 It is up to the Match Director to specify in the Written Stage Briefing when the time stops. 

[jhgtyre]

5 minutes ago, harleytech said:

Earlier this year, proposed rule changes were brought before the board to codify Steel Challenge type stages and par time stages. The rule book has penalties that cover overtime shots and failure to hit a stop plate. It was decided not to adopt these changes so as to give Match Directors flexibility in stage design. Review Capter 2 " The course of fire will be explained to the shooters by a complete written description of the course of fire and/or a walk through from the Range Officer." 4.3. Requires stages and their descriptions must be set up clearly. Make things easy to understand. 

 It is up to the Match Director to specify in the Written Stage Briefing when the time stops. 

I'm not sure that post was very clear or that the conclusion you reach is correct.

 

Icore Rules Chapter 2 reads:

Quote

 

2. RANGE COMMANDS

ICORE has based its range commands on the assumption that the shooters will present themselves to the starting position with their firearm unloaded and holstered, prepared to shoot the course of fire. The course of fire will be explained to the shooters by a complete written description of the course of fire and/or by a walk through from the Chief Range Officer (CRO). It is the shooter's responsibility to understand the course of fire. The CRO will invite the shooter to the starting box or area and give the following commands:

 

 

Rule 4.3, which you  mention, reads:

Quote

Stages and their descriptions must be set up clearly. Make things easy to understand. Shooting boxes and/or areas and fault lines must be easy to distinguish from the surrounding area. Props are up to the course designers and Match Directors. Shooters should enjoy the challenge.

 

Neither of those mention using the written description of the course to change or alter any other rules.

The idea of rolling the clock back for an extra hit on a stop plate seems contrary to 6.5:

Quote

6.5. Scoring is done on a "total time" basis. The accumulated time of all runs, plus target hits, plus penalties equals total time. That will be the score.

I did not add the quotation marks around "total time", that emphasis is part of the rules.  How can you roll back the clock, which removes time, and call that "total time"?

[harleytech]

Emphasis on written stage description. There are no other rules governing steel challenge type stages in ICORE. Match Directors have a free hand determining when the clock stops. They can choose when the plate is hit initially or at last shot. 

[varminter22]

Giving match directors flexibility in stage design makes sense.  But rolling the clock back?  No, that doesn't make sense to me. 

 

I agree with jhgtyre :

Quote
The idea of rolling the clock back for an extra hit on a stop plate seems contrary to 6.5:

I did not add the quotation marks around "total time", that emphasis is part of the rules.  How can you roll back the clock, which removes time, and call that "total time"?

Unquote

[jhgtyre]

1 hour ago, harleytech said:

Emphasis on written stage description. There are no other rules governing steel challenge type stages in ICORE. Match Directors have a free hand determining when the clock stops. They can choose when the plate is hit initially or at last shot. 

There are no rules that support this interpretation in any way whatsoever.

[harleytech]

ICORE has two types of courses of fire. Shots Limited or Shots Unlimited. It doesn't have any rules specifically governing steel challenge type stages. It has rules (6.6.10. Failure to hit a Stop Plate and 6.6.5.1. Covering FTE's on a steel-only stage) that apply to steel challenge type stages, but doesn't have a rule governing what a steel challenge stage is. Find an example in the rules that allows throwing out the worst string. You won't. That being said, the BOD didn't want to enact rules to govern steel challenge type stages. The idea is to give Match Directors total control over them. You won't find a rule that says hitting the stop plate ends the string. You will find a rule that allows shooters to fire right up to the issuance of "If clear, close cylinder,holster". So what happens if a shooter missed a plate but hit the stop plate afterwards? Did the string stop when the stop plate was hit or can he take a makeup shot prior to "If clear, close cylinder, holster"? That's why the wording of Chapter 2 that covers the stage being explained by a complete written stage description is so important to these stages. I hope this explains my rationale more completely.

[jhgtyre]

5 minutes ago, harleytech said:

ICORE has two types of courses of fire. Shots Limited or Shots Unlimited. It doesn't have any rules specifically governing steel challenge type stages. It has rules (6.6.10. Failure to hit a Stop Plate and 6.6.5.1. Covering FTE's on a steel-only stage) that apply to steel challenge type stages, but doesn't have a rule governing what a steel challenge stage is. Find an example in the rules that allows throwing out the worst string. You won't. That being said, the BOD didn't want to enact rules to govern steel challenge type stages. The idea is to give Match Directors total control over them. You won't find a rule that says hitting the stop plate ends the string. You will find a rule that allows shooters to fire right up to the issuance of "If clear, close cylinder,holster". So what happens if a shooter missed a plate but hit the stop plate afterwards? Did the string stop when the stop plate was hit or can he take a makeup shot prior to "If clear, close cylinder, holster"? That's why the wording of Chapter 2 that covers the stage being explained by a complete written stage description is so important to these stages. I hope this explains my rationale more completely.

They might be "steel challenge type" stages but they are ICORE stages and bound by the rules of ICORE.  No where in the rules does it state that the clock should be rolled back for an extra hit on a stop plate. I would be more likely to interpret an extra hit on a stop plate as a penalty for firing a shot after the course of fire had ended (which is a dumb idea, I'm just making an extreme example). 

 

Why make up silly rules?  If Bubba shoots the stop place twice he gets a longer time.  How about we just stop writing bad stage descriptions and say that the COF ends with the last shot fired and you get a procedural if you hit the stop plate and then shoot ANY other plate?  Just because somebody wrote a bad stage description we don't need to reinvent the sport.

[mikeAZ]

I don't see why a RO would back the clock up,. You shot it. Get a different RO, that one is confused.....  Like me saying, I should have shot the stage 10 seconds faster and then having 10 seconds taken off the timer....I never RO family members either, bad JuJu.... 

[harleytech]

That's it. Write good stage descriptions and all of these problems go away. 

[varminter22]

14 minutes ago, harleytech said:

That's it. Write good stage descriptions and all of these problems go away. 

 

Actually, no.  There is still that pesky rule 6.5:

Quote

6.5. Scoring is done on a "total time" basis. The accumulated time of all runs, plus target hits, plus penalties equals total time. That will be the score.

[harleytech]

Want to blow your mind? Start talking about par time stages and total time scoring! LOL!

[S&W627shooter]

On 8/7/2017 at 6:34 PM, harleytech said:

So what happens if a shooter missed a plate but hit the stop plate afterwards? Did the string stop when the stop plate was hit or can he take a makeup shot prior to "If clear, close cylinder, holster"? That's why the wording of Chapter 2 that covers the stage being explained by a complete written stage description is so important to these stages. I hope this explains my rationale more completely.

I would not roll back the clock for multiple stop plate hits.  It is the shooters responsibility to know when he should stop shooting.  The total time is from the buzzer to the last shot fired.  Rule 6.5 says "Scoring is done on a "total time" basis. The accumulated time of all runs, plus target hits, plus penalties equals total time. That will be the score."

In your scenario, If the shooter missed a plate, then shot the stop plate, then took a make-up shot at the missed steel, I would score it as follows: total time would include the last make-up shot, and the shooter would be score a miss on the plate because it was shot after the stop plate.  Any shots after the stop plate do not count for score, but they would count for time.  Maybe that's harsh, but that is how I would score it.  

[pskys2]

We used Stop Plates to stop the time in USPSA when stop watches were the only timer.  Once Timers came into being it became the last shot fired.

 

FWIW my view is to put a Stop Plate that stops time vs being the last target to engage is a bad COF.  

 

But it seems that ICORE COF's could be done either way, as long as it's in a WSB, so everyone gets the same course and doesn't violate a written rule in the rule book then all is well.