Area 3 Championship

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

I think you don't actually understand the spirit of 1.1.5.... has nothing to do with physical boxes, tires, circles, etc... has to do with not forcing a competitor to shoot from a specific location... not what they are actually shooting from.  There were 8 tires.  You only had to shoot out of 4 of them... and of those 4 you only HAD TO shoot from 1 of them (only location 2 target where visible). 

No, actually what you just said is my point exactly. Even if it all boiled down to one tire,  that shooting location was still dictated. So that would seem to contradict 1.1.5

[motosapiens]

32 minutes ago, Sarge said:

No, actually what you just said is my point exactly. Even if it all boiled down to one tire,  that shooting location was still dictated. So that would seem to contradict 1.1.5

umm. I guess I am baffled at how you think that dictates a shooting location any more than other small or oddly-shaped shooting areas. the locations were actually dictated by your personal preferences and strengths and your stage plans, just like on any other stage.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

One thing that I wonder about is how NROI can validly review and approve these type of stages when the WSB's and Drawings don't really represent reality or this gimmicky stuff. 

 

Troy was the RM. It seems normal to me at level 3 matches to have adjustments made to the stages once the RM sees the actual physical layout, as opposed to just a schematic drawing.

[MemphisMechanic]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

People must really like all of the gimmick's and circus stuff because they fill this match to capacity every year. I stopped going to this match because I am into shooting at shooting matches instead of being forced to do a bunch of stupid stuff before I could get to the shooting.

 

 

I agree, yet disagree.

 

I dislike circus props: Grab these three colored cards, shuffle them, and shoot the color of the target that you flip over on top. Gimmicks.

 

The tires and the rooftop stage, however, appeal to me. I wish USPSA demanded far more athleticism than it requires - that it was more of a sport and less "golf with guns" that caters most strongly to guys in need of a knee replacement.

Additionally, that the shooting was as technically demanding as some of the IPSC matches I've seen and less "lets all just shred 16 wide open Metric targets at warp speed"

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[dsu96]

If the tire stage was "against the rules" per se, what about the stage where you sat on a tractor?  Would that be considered "a box" then too, where the shooting area was defined?

 

Just trying to understand the differences...

[selecw]

On 8/7/2017 at 0:00 PM, BritinUSA said:

 

What shirt/color/logo were you wearing… I may have some pictures…?

 

Twin Sisters club shirt which is kinda golden brown and black shorts. Thanks .. I think  ...

[CHA-LEE]

MemphisMechanic> I understand where you are coming from in wanting to test athleticism more than it currently is. But USPSA matches are bound by the Principles and Rules that the organization defines. I have listed below the Principles of USPSA taken out of the rule book. If you read through these this Area match pushes the limits of Principles 4, 6, 7, and 8.

 

PRINCIPLES of USPSA Competitions

1.Practical competition is open to all reputable persons without regard to occupation. It may specifically not be limited to public servants.

2.Accuracy, power and speed are the equivalent elements of practical shooting and practical competition must be conducted in such a way as to evaluate these elements equally.

3.Firearm types are not separated within their respective divisions, all compete together without handicap. This does not apply to the power of the firearms as power is an element to be recognized and rewarded.

4.Practical shooting competition is a test of expertise in the use of practical firearms and equipment.

5.Practical competition is conducted using practical targets, which reflect the general size and shape of such objects as the firearm used may reasonably be called upon to hit in their primary intended use.

6.The challenge presented in practical competition must be done with the utmost safety in mind. Courses of Fire should follow a practical rationale and simulate hypothetical situations in which firearms might reasonably be used.

7.Practical competition is diverse, never permitting unrealistic specialization of either technique or equipment. Problems are constantly changed. The exception is Classifier Stages which are used to measure practical shooting skill.

8.Practical competition is free-style. In essence, the competitive problem is posed in general and the participant is permitted the freedom to solve it in the manner he considers best within the limitations of the competitive situation as provided.

 

If we want to go into specific Rules there are are several which this match are in direct violation of......

 

1.1.1 Safety – USPSA matches must be designed, constructed and conducted with due consideration to safety.

Examples - Creating trip hazzards as shooting areas, promoting muzzle sweeping scenarios by using stupid props, forcing the use of props which promotes unsafe gun handling.  

 

1.1.2 Quality – The value of an USPSA match is determined by the quality of the challenge presented in the course design. Courses of fire must be designed primarily to test a competitor’s USPSA shooting skills, not their physical abilities.

Examples - Any time you see a stage that forces shooters to jump or climb into, on or off of things puts a bias towards physical abilities. The same could be said when the stage design forces shooters to run 10+ yards from one shooting position to the next. 

 

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

Examples - When you use shooting boxes in large field courses you are dictating shooting positions. When you mandate the manipulation of props to force shooters to use a particular navigation through a stage this eliminates the freestyle factor. When you create out of bounds areas to keep competitors from circumventing the prop manipulation this eliminates the freestyle factor. 

 

1.1.8 Scenarios and Stage Props — The use of scenarios and reasonable stage props is encouraged. Care must be exercised, however, to avoid unrealistic non-shooting requirements which detract from the shooting challenge and/or may expose competitors to potentially unsafe conditions.

Examples - Look at all of the stages that required screwing around with things which had NOTHING to do with the shooting challenge. The same shooting challenges could have been deployed without all of the gimmicks. Look at how much non-shooting stage time is being wasted on some of these stages as shooters are screwing around with the gimmicks. 

 

I don't want to be the bad guy here. All I am doing is pointing out the fact that many of the "Gimmicks" in this match at best push the limits of USPSA's Principles and at the worst flat out break the Rules. I am surprised that this kind stuff was allowed at any level match much less an Area match, especially with Troy M which is DNROI serving as the Range Master. But what I do I know? I just an MD trying to follow the Principles and Rules that are required of my club to maintain our USPSA sanctioning.

[selecw]

On 8/5/2017 at 1:25 PM, titandriver said:

Truer words have never been spoken Steve!!!

 

I need to think how to solve this issue in the WY sectional !!!

[CHA-LEE]

7 minutes ago, dsu96 said:

If the tire stage was "against the rules" per se, what about the stage where you sat on a tractor?  Would that be considered "a box" then too, where the shooting area was defined?

 

Just trying to understand the differences...

 

The tractor stage was a legal "Speed Shoot" stage. Check out rule 1.2.2.3 in the USPSA Handgun Rule book.

[selecw]

Having shot A1 and A2 this year, I thought the A3 stages were harder physically and in terms of the shooting. They were also more "fun" (completely subjective assessment).

 

That said, the tire stage worried me a bit because of the trip hazard, and the roof stage caused me to change my stage plan so I didn't need to jump off the roof - my visualization included the sound of my ancient muscles snapping

 

 

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

my question on the tire (and I cant tell from the videos) is was there a separate fault line inside them? if not why did anybody step all the way in rather than just stand on them? I don't see how anyone could have been penalized regardless of what they may have said in the WSB. if they were just tires with red lines painted on them (what I do see in the Video) 

 

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting, providing doing so does not violate (2.2.1.5 or 3.2.6) Shots fired after completely (both feet out and touching the ground) leaving a shooting area will be penalized one penalty per shot until the competitor establishes a presence in a new shooting area with at least one foot on the ground inside the shooting area.

[Sarge]

49 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

The tractor stage was a legal "Speed Shoot" stage. Check out rule 1.2.2.3 in the USPSA Handgun Rule book.

What he said.

[selecw]

28 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

my question on the tire (and I cant tell from the videos) is was there a separate fault line inside them? if not why did anybody step all the way in rather than just stand on them? I don't see how anyone could have been penalized regardless of what they may have said in the WSB. if they were just tires with red lines painted on them (what I do see in the Video) 

 

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting, providing doing so does not violate (2.2.1.5 or 3.2.6) Shots fired after completely (both feet out and touching the ground) leaving a shooting area will be penalized one penalty per shot until the competitor establishes a presence in a new shooting area with at least one foot on the ground inside the shooting area.

 

There was an orange inner fault line on the tire if I remember correctly. The RO demonstrated acceptable shooting positions, which did  not include one foot in and one foot out 

Edited August 8, 2017 by selecw
update

[motosapiens]

50 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

1.1.2 Quality – The value of an USPSA match is determined by the quality of the challenge presented in the course design. Courses of fire must be designed primarily to test a competitor’s USPSA shooting skills, not their physical abilities.

Examples - Any time you see a stage that forces shooters to jump or climb into, on or off of things puts a bias towards physical abilities. The same could be said when the stage design forces shooters to run 10+ yards from one shooting position to the next. 

 

 

The best shooters still won. No one was forced to jump or climb onto anything unreasonable.  I have unusually good physical abilities and athleticism, and the same guys finished the same distance ahead of me as usual on most of the stages. 

 

I am much more concerned about the safety and competitive equity issues than I am about whether a stage is too 'hard' for old people who play golf and watch tv. I thought last year had zero of those issues, and this year had a couple of them. I know Sherwyn is aware of those issues so I don't expect them to be repeated. I do expect the more elaborate stages (with many different choices and options) to be repeated.

[rowdyb]

the tire's bead had a red coating of paint on it and we were told that was the fault line. the tire's were pretty slick with dew in the morning.

 

dude's at my local club are hating on me for not really enjoying this match and being vocal about it. i'll explain here why i feel the way i do and leave at the point that I won't be returning to this match. though i will say other than the stages and the score posting, this was a very well run match and people were very friendly and tried to make it good. the stage design totally killed it for me. (even if it was only a 1 hour drive away i would choose something different to shoot that weekend)

 

 fun versus competition. i like to ride motorcycles. some of the funnest roads i've ridden on would make for a very horrible race course. there is a difference between a stage that is fun to shoot and a stage that is a good challenge in a competitive event.

 

the stages we shoot are questions on a test we all take. we all have to answer the same question. if you want the questions on the test to be difficult then increase the questions difficulty. do not change the environment the test is taken in, ie turning music way up, flashing strobe lights or making the room super cold. make the questions intrinsically harder rather than extrinsically harder. we have plenty of legal, safe, vetted ways to make hard stages without what we saw on a majority of stages there. (mass participation or same ol' same ol' results are not indicative of good stage design or its validity as a shooting test)

 

as far as making uspsa more athletic, there would need to be a youth revolution in who is in charge of the sport. until people under 30 (i'm 45) are doing most the RO work, most the stage designing and pushing what is acceptable at section and area matches then it will stay as it is. want to be tested more on your athletics currently? run harder and faster.

 

for reference, i'll have shot 5 of the 8 area matches this year and 3 sectionals. i have more than just local or statewide match experience to base my observations and opinions on.

Edited August 8, 2017 by rowdyb

[motosapiens]

30 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

my question on the tire (and I cant tell from the videos) is was there a separate fault line inside them? if not why did anybody step all the way in rather than just stand on them?

 

the inner recessed portion of the bead of the tire (where it rests against the rim) was painted red, so you could touch the edge, but not the rest of the tire. It was pretty obvious and pretty easy to understand and to call.

[ChuckS]

5 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

the tire's bead had a red coating of paint on it and we were told that was the fault line. the tire's were pretty slick with dew in the morning.

 

dude's at my local club are hating on me for not really enjoying this match and being vocal about it. i'll explain here why i feel the way i do and leave at the point that I won't be returning to this match. though i will say other than the stages and the score posting, this was a very well run match and people were very friendly and tried to make it good. the stage design totally killed it for me. (even if it was only a 1 hour drive away i would choose something different to shoot that weekend)

 

 fun versus competition. i like to ride motorcycles. some of the funnest roads i've ridden on would make for a very horrible race course. there is a difference between a stage that is fun to shoot and a stage that is a good challenge in a competitive event.

 

the stages we shoot are questions on a test we all take. we all have to answer the same question. if you want the questions on the test to be difficult then increase the questions difficulty. do not change the environment the test is taken in, ie turning music way up, flashing strobe lights or making the room super cold. make the questions intrinsically harder rather than extrinsically harder. we have plenty of legal, safe, vetted ways to make hard stages without what we saw on a majority of stages there.

 

as far as making uspsa more athletic, there would need to be a youth revolution in who is in charge of the sport. until people under 30 (i'm 45) are doing most the RO work, most the stage designing and pushing what is acceptable at section and area matches then it will stay as it is. want to be tested more on your athletics currently? run harder and faster.

 

for reference, i'll have shot 5 of the 8 area matches this year and 3 sectionals. i have more than just local or statewide match experience to base my observations and opinions on.

[motosapiens]

32 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

 fun versus competition. i like to ride motorcycles. some of the funnest roads i've ridden on would make for a very horrible race course. there is a difference between a stage that is fun to shoot and a stage that is a good challenge in a competitive event.

<snip>

as far as making uspsa more athletic, there would need to be a youth revolution in who is in charge of the sport. until people under 30 (i'm 45) are doing most the RO work, most the stage designing and pushing what is acceptable at section and area matches then it will stay as it is. want to be tested more on your athletics currently? run harder and faster.

 

That makes sense. I am also a motorcyclist, but mostly dirt, and I find that the gnarliest most technically and physically challenging trails are perfect for an enduro or hare-n-hound. Of course motorcycle races are divided up by ability classes so the novices don't generally run the AA-loops, but they still run courses that are very challenging. That's why it's not shuffleboard.

 

Personally, I hope A3 and uspsa resist the general (not just shooting) trend towards soft, easy, everyone gets a participation medal crap. I also hope they don't abandon competitive equity in favor of extreme silliness. Seems to me there is a large area between those extremes, and IMHO everything at A3 except the triple swinger and the stage 3 rope pull was well within that area.

 

fwiw, i'm only 56, so perhaps 10 years from now I will change my mind and start agreeing with the old fogeys that we need to be able to just stand and shoot, move no more than 2-3 yards at a time, have umbrellas to protect us from the sun, etc.....  Seriously, I don't want to be seen as hatin' on you for not enjoying the match like your local buds did. You are a good shooter and a thoughtful and intelligent person judging by your posts here, so your reaction is reasonable and valid. But so are the reactions of the people who really enjoy the match and go out of their way to go back.

 

You don't stop shooting A3 stages because you get old.... you get old because you stop shooting A3 stages.  

Edited August 8, 2017 by motosapiens

[MikeBurgess]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

the inner recessed portion of the bead of the tire (where it rests against the rim) was painted red, so you could touch the edge, but not the rest of the tire. It was pretty obvious and pretty easy to understand and to call.

 

So the tire was the fault line but you couldn't stand on it, like every other fault line,  because not all of the tire was the fault line only the part that was painted, got it.

 

Things like this are why I keep a $100 bill in my wallet at major matches, then I get to decide if I want to be THAT guy or not. I just don't like being put in the position where I have to make that choice.  If I shot the match I would have had to decide how my match was going when I got to that stage then decide if it was worth it to rock the boat or not.

 

 

 

Yes it is easily understood, Yes it was easy to call, but that doesn't make it OK if it is not supported by the rules.

I run 1 Outlaw Match a year where I get to do whatever I want every other match I follow all the rules like them or not.

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

 

So the tire was the fault line but you couldn't stand on it, like every other fault line,  because not all of the tire was the fault line only the part that was painted, got it.

 

 

only an obviously delineated part of the tire was the fault line, and it was legal to stand on that part, but difficult and time-consuming, so no one bothered. No one stands on the fault line pretty much anywhere unless there is a hard lean involved, and there was no hard lean here.

 

I'm not sure what you would arb on that stage. I have great respect for you and the matches you put on, but as a reasonably experienced CRO who was worked several Area and National matches, and shot several area and national matches, I don't see anything in the rules that i could use to throw that stage out. And afterwards I would probably make fun of you for wanting to, but I would still offer you a beer.

[MikeBurgess]

6 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

only an obviously delineated part of the tire was the fault line, and it was legal to stand on that part, but difficult and time-consuming, so no one bothered. No one stands on the fault line pretty much anywhere unless there is a hard lean involved, and there was no hard lean here.

 

I'm not sure what you would arb on that stage. I have great respect for you and the matches you put on, but as a reasonably experienced CRO who was worked several Area and National matches, and shot several area and national matches, I don't see anything in the rules that i could use to throw that stage out. And afterwards I would probably make fun of you for wanting to, but I would still offer you a beer.

I hope you aren't taking this all wrong I'm just having some online fun playing devils advocate, I don't drink but Id love to have a soda and  buy you a beer next time we are int he same place:-)

 

forgot to say if I was un-successful in my protest I would expect no end of crap

Edited August 8, 2017 by MikeBurgess

[MikeBurgess]

12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

only an obviously delineated part of the tire was the fault line, and it was legal to stand on that part, but difficult and time-consuming, so no one bothered. No one stands on the fault line pretty much anywhere unless there is a hard lean involved, and there was no hard lean here.

 

I'm not sure what you would arb on that stage. I have great respect for you and the matches you put on, but as a reasonably experienced CRO who was worked several Area and National matches, and shot several area and national matches, I don't see anything in the rules that i could use to throw that stage out. And afterwards I would probably make fun of you for wanting to, but I would still offer you a beer.

As for the rules, I don't see how standing on a portion of a object, beyond the area the object is painted to can be penalized per the rules. I would not be "touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line" I would be standing on the fault line itself. 

 I would not be trying to get the stage tossed in my protest, I would just be getting all the erroneously issued procedural penalties removed from my score. 

 

[motosapiens]

10 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I don't drink

 

lol, you should start. I too was just bustin yer balls a little.

 

for sure this match had some minor issues (and we actually were about to arb something before everyone came to their senses and agreed with me), but I'd hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I really love the risk/reward calculations engendered by the props and stage designs they come up with. The drop-turner stage kept me up at night trying to build up the confidence to just shoot it like a man. It probably helped that my wife shot it first and nailed the drop-turners.

[MikeBurgess]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

 

lol, you should start. I too was just bustin yer balls a little.

 

for sure this match had some minor issues (and we actually were about to arb something before everyone came to their senses and agreed with me), but I'd hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I really love the risk/reward calculations engendered by the props and stage designs they come up with. The drop-turner stage kept me up at night trying to build up the confidence to just shoot it like a man. It probably helped that my wife shot it first and nailed the drop-turners.

Your not the first to tell me that, then they figure out how twisted I am sober and it all makes sense.

 

When I'm playing shooter for the weekend I find it much easier to just shut up and shoot what they put in front of me, but I do a lot of stage design work and take it quite seriously and on top of that I have a weird obsession with rules, and kind of take pride in having made a RMI have to call the DNROI on 2 occasions to sort out things I found or did.

 

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, MikeBurgess said:

As for the rules, I don't see how standing on a portion of a object, beyond the area the object is painted to can be penalized per the rules. I would not be "touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line" I would be standing on the fault line itself. 

 I would not be trying to get the stage tossed in my protest, I would just be getting all the erroneously issued procedural penalties removed from my score. 

 

Do the rules say a fault line must be an entirely separate object? that's what we are used to, but it seems to me a molded rubber object with a clear raised border between fault and not-fault is functionally the same.

 

Oddly enough there was another fault line discussion that actually had some basis. The discussion involved a wall that was open at the bottom 2' or so, but was deemed to go from the ground to the height constructed (so you couldn't shoot underneath it). no fault line underneath it, just bare grass, and there was some discussion over whether a foot that was estimated to poke out past the imaginary wall while shooting was worth a procedural or not. Very good and experienced RO too. Justice was eventually done. (no procedural), but I thought we were going to have to take our first stab at the arbitration system, which would have been an excellent learning experience. We had cash and I had gone to get paper and pen and mrs moto had already informed the MD of our intent, then I got back (after getting my gear so I could shoot the afternoon session) and the whole thing had been resolved properly. yay for less stress. Boo for less experience and learning.