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Winning- How Important Is It To You?


Flyin40

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How important is winning or beating someone to you???

I have noticed quite a bit lately some shooters attitude toward winning or beating a particular person. I noticed because I have never been one to worry about winning a competition as my sole focus. I only worry about self improvement. Winning has always come as a by product for me. I won my first match this yr, it was a local match. I was excited and even pmed a fellow member and let them know. I wasn't excited about winning, I was excited because I shot a solid match, above 95% of the pts. All the practice paid off. I could of cared less is it was all D shooters or all GM I shot against. I shot within my ability and even above in some cases.

I bring this up to have everyone sit back and think about how they view shooting and winning. I think if you become so focused on winning or beating a particular person it hurts you. You end up trying to out shoot someone to win or beat them and it will lead to mistakes. I'm a firm believer its easier for you to beat yourself than for someone to beat you.

I will say everyones different and what motivates everyone is different. I know people who can use the motivation of beating a particular person to help them focus and shoot well. I just don't know that many who can use the type of motivation effectively.

Don't get me wrong, trying to win or beating a particular person isn't bad in my opinion as long as its not your main focus. When competing against someone and it comes down the last stage for the win can lead to some great performances, way above your normal performance but just the same it can lead to bombing a stage.

Flyin40

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Flyin40,

Good post and topic.

To me, this is something I do for fun. Winning or beating someone at this is absolutely unimportant. I have a job that provides me all the stress I need. If I get to a point where I'm going to a match wound tight and worried about winning, I'll find another hobby.

Very few people make a living at this game. The rest of us must decide how important it is, personally, to do the work/put in the time to make it to the GM/M level (or what ever your goal may be). If I were to spend X hours per day dry firing or practicing drills, I would likely have a higher rating. I would also be ignoring the Airedales and more importantly, Mrs. Airedale. (note to self: anniversary #28 in ~2 weeks, don't forget.....again :blink: )

I could have shot my 625 yesterday (local match) and won revolver. I had just finished a smooth trigger job on my 627 (8 shot) and wanted to run it. I shot in L-10 and had a ball. Fun is more important.

It's a great game and I thoroughly enjoy it. It's not the focus of my life.

Dave

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Great post Airedale. Winning is very subjective to who shows up, how everyone else finished that day, and doesn't account for malfunctions, etc. Winning a local match is not a good indicator of skill, but of circumstance. With that said, and everyone knowing that I pay attention to other shooters scores and analyze the results to death every week, let me say that when several of the other shooters in my class, division, skill set are all on, and we all shoot the same stages, then the stage win will make you feel good, confident, and competent. Then you go to a bigger match and get your ass handed to you, and that too is a good thing. In the beginning, I shot because I liked guns, then for improvement. Those are still paramount, but winning does make you feel good, there is no denying it.

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I can't deny that I like to win :) I've found that, when I make winning my end goal, it remains elusive - something always seems to sneak up and snatch it away. It also gives plenty of opportunity to fear of failure and fear of success to set it.

I find that, if I set my goals on performing my best (and actually change my definition of winning to that, too....) - I feel a lot more satisfied with my overall performance, I can remain objective about the results, and I place higher in the matches - including 1st occasionally.

That's not to say that thoughts of winning or beating someone else don't creep in - and I agree w/ Flyin40 - keeping track of my competition can provide the impetus to bear down and really focus on a stage or two (or a whole match) - but I can't pursue it as a final goal. Just doesn't work for me :)

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Winning is fun. We're trained that way. Trying to win at the match is what's going to screw you up.

The big dogs all want to win. They have a burning desire to win. They do what it takes to win. But.. they do that before the match.

You can use a desire to beat somebody else as motivation to practice, but don't even think about it at the match.

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When I started to shoot 3-gun in March of this year, it was the first time I had ever won a local match. Since then, in that discipline, I have expected to win every time I gear up. 3-gun is, for some reason, very different for me than any other discipline I shoot (USPSA, Action Pistol). It isn't so much as I want to win, it is that I know I can win. And now that I know that, my motivation is how bad I can beat the guy in 2nd place. That is a double-edged sword. I made a huge mistake on a 250 pt rifle stage yesterday that cost me the match. I thought I had the right plan to stomp a stage and it bit me. I was still 100% in shotgun and pistol. But, 2nd place pissed me off yesterday.

Action Pistol is a bit different as it is still me vs. 1920/192x. Right now 1700 is a monkey on my back and my goal is to average 450 pts per event, or 1800 total by the time Bianchi rolls around next May. The big draw I have to AP is the mental challenge I put up for myself. The way I shoot now it is more luck and skill that wins out when I place higher than another shooter. My goal is to get to the point where that balance is skewed to the side of skill.

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BigDave, how bad are you going to beat us at ORPC next month?  :P

Sorry, I couldn't resist.  ;)

:ph34r:

Ha! Well...uh...hmmm. I probably won't (beat anyone) now that I've opened my trap. :D You guys make me chase you and that is why I love shooting down there with you guys. I know I can't slack off, even on a single stage, and do well with that crowd. I like that motivation. ;)

I stand by my original statement. But Mike, if you end up at 100%, I hope it is because I pushed you because I am trying to win. And, if not now, maybe sometime soon.

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Thanks Dave, it will be great fun regardless of who places first. GW always gives motivation in that form at ORPC. Vikings501 is also very capable of a win there. I just looked back, and the four of us were 1-4 and 1-3 had 100% in one of the three categories. This is why we have to be intent on shooting the stages within our ability, and looking at the results later. I look forward to the challenge.

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I can't imagine *not* caring about winning, rankings, beating peers, crushing opponents, etc., etc.

The only problem is, I'm new to this sport, and terrible, and the only competitor I leave reeling in humiliation after a match is...myself. :)

I am in the process, though, of really changing my outlook - not that I'm losing my competitive fire, which is after all, why I started shooting IPSC - but refocusing in a productive manner. It was *not* productive paying attention to the times/points that another shooter in my squad, whom I considered "better" but not impossibly so, was turning in after a stage. It was not productive flying around, shooting as fast as I *thought* I was seeing, and turning in mikes, multiple hits on no-shoots, D's, etc., and not even being fast.

After hitting rock-bottom, like an alcoholic, in subsequent matches, I've started to really see what I needed to see, which feels like an eternity, but I'm finally getting 90%+ of the points, and shooting an entire stage with no D's, nor dead hostages. <sigh>

I'd like to say this was some sort of epiphany, but it wasn't -- instead it's a little depressing, because I realize how much work and time it will take to see what I need to see, only a LOT faster. It puts winning in perspective. I still can't see ignoring the leader-board, or not worrying about match-results, nor trying to win in my division, etc., but I'm resigned to acknowleging my current level of ability, and reconciling a desire to "win" with the practice required.

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ARTICLE -- I really enjoyed this guy's book which covers this subject very well.

After reflecting on it a while, decided that there are parallels between golf and ipsc shooting but the differences that stand out [for me] are

-- Ipsc shooting, you're probably too busy with the demands of the stage to think about the people behind you. Golf you might tee off with someone staring across at you.

-- Ipsc shooting depends more on the skills you bring on game day. How disciplined was your practice? How much time did you waste perfecting skills you *think* the top shooters are doing, but really they're doing something else?

-- Golfers are more prone to melting down [almost incurably] due to nothing more than muscle tension. The ball won't leave the tee on line no matter what they focus on. An ipsc shooter can always *decide* to have the patience to shoot an A, then another 'A' and so on.

I've LEARNED a lot while shooting on super squads but I never scored well from that squad. Some of my best shooting has been on squads of U-Prod, C-Lim shooters. I finish in half [or 1/3rd] their elapsed times and feel like I'm going plenty fast. I had no 'adversary' at all & did just fine. Smitty might chime in - he won Area 6 shooting from a squad of Average Joes and had no idea what all the Big Dogs were putting up for scores. And Merle Edington won the Nationals shooting with a squad of A-class Open guys.

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Ever heard of the Three Laws of Robotics?

1. A robot may not harm a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3. A robot must protect its own existence, as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Isaac Asimov built a lot of his writing career on exploring the conflicts among these laws.

Winning is important, but values are (barely) more important. So I'd say 1) Live up to your values, and 2) Win, except where it would require you to violate #1. Above that, we wouldn't keep score if winning wasn't important.

I'm learning that the strategies I have used in other activities to motivate myself can be counterproductive in competitive shooting. Sometimes I get so keyed up that an early setback can sour the entire match. To improve I've had to force myself to take each stage separately, and let go of whatever happened before that.

My Airedale needs some attention too. Shooting has kept me away quite a bit recently.

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... it's a game, we keep score, there are winners and losers. Sometimes there is a really cool prize that you miss out on because of less than 10 match points. That's frustrating and it's difficult sometimes not to get caught up in it all.

When it happens to me I repeat to myself: "Focus on the fundamentals and everything else will fall into place."

Don't get me wrong though, this isn't me opening the door to stroll down the path of nirvanic shooting enlightenment. I'm not taking any sort of moral high road here or making deposits of goodness into the universal gun games karma credit program.

It's an attempt to take my focus off winning so that I can.

""I've lost the edge, I'm holding on to tight" -- Cougar, Top Gun 1986

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Do these sound familiar to anybody?

-My match performances, to a certain extent, dictates my attitude the next week.

-Most of the time I'm having "fun", but sometimes I'm not. Why do spend time and money on something that pisses me off 1/3 of the time?

-I don't mind losing, but I simply hate when I lose because of my mistakes.

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Being a highly competitive person is both a benefit and a curse.

I shot traditional archery for years. Absolutely loved it. Started shooting competitively and got good, got better, started winning about every 3 D shoot I went to. Got a room full of 'trophies." Enjoyed it less and less and less. It got to the point to where to the "perfect" shot was no longer a joy but the less than perfect shot was a disappointment. The same thing with golf.... No joy but great demands on myself.

As a 53 year old shooter I don't think I will ever get good enough to worry about worrying about winning big matches. :D

I really hope I can just control my "nature" well enough to focus on the joy more than the purely competitive aspects of the game.

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I know I like to win....It's rare, but I like it when it happens.

However I could shoot a certain outlaw match and be guaranteed a top 3 finish, usually the win, yet I don't.... Victory in a tiny pond is hollow :mellow:

Whether I win or lose is something that I think about after the match. All I can do is shoot my game and see what happens. I'm normally a "middle of the pack" shooter, so unless I switch back to L-10 I have no chance of winning. That suits me fine right now with my skill level. I'll continue to shoot Limited and finish at a level that's matching the amount of effort I'm putting into it.

I feel like I had a good/fun/rewarding match as long as I learn something from others or at least identify something I need to work on. Since I need to work on a lot of stuff, every match ends up being a success

I didn't think like this when I played golf. No matter how well I played I would severely beat myself up on the way home for something or other. Could be why I quit playing. Odd that I quit playing something I was good at. My 0 handicap meant I was a Master class golfer while I'm probably going to be a lifetime B class shooter. Strange stuff indeed.

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Do these sound familiar to anybody?

-My match performances, to a certain extent, dictates my attitude the next week.

-Most of the time I'm having "fun", but sometimes I'm not.  Why do spend time and money on something that pisses me off 1/3 of the time?

I will accept these two as my own, with the exception that it doesn't last a week either way, and that it is more like 1/4 of the time.

-I don't mind losing, but I simply hate when I lose because of my mistakes.

I'll accept this one but my mistakes I can learn from, other failures, like equipment malfunctions, or subjective stages where it is not clear what is OK, are another.

My how your post hit home though!

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Enjoyed it less and less and less. It got to the point to where to the "perfect" shot was no longer a joy but the less than perfect shot was a disappointment.

I'm concerned about this ... if it happens to me I expect there will be a few more used limited and open guns on the market. This subject came up this weekend. A friend of mine said as soon as he get's is M card it's off to sporting clays for him and all his race guns go on sale. It made me sad at first. It made me more sad that more I thought about it, the more sense it made.

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Someone has to loose and there will always be a winner. Unless your a phenom you will take your share of defeats. Since I'm not not a phenom I've got a lot of experience in defeat. I still have not learned to like it.

It's not that I want the other guy to loose, I just want to win. I will look at someone who has simular abilities and skills and use them as my benchmark. It's not that I'm trying to beat them, but I refuse to loose to them, if that makes any sense.

Losing then inspires me to practice more. If I have to make a mistake I want it to be a new mistake. But if I shoot to the very best of my ability, make and run my plan, but I still loose, thats O.K. I did my best...

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