Do uprange starts really add anything to a stage?

[MemphisMechanic]

8 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

The one where USPSA is supposed to always be cooler than IDPA. 

 

It still is. Shooting an 18 rd stage with a rifle nearly exclusively "from cover" is not nearly as cool as running and gunning with one.

[MemphisMechanic]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

What principles does it violate?

 

No idea, personally. I'm just glad it's in now... because I run a handgun at a subconscious level of skill. Rifles make me stop and think and pause and... not just shoot.

 

I'm excited to build a PCC and run and gun with it until my shooting/moving/loading AR15 skills are really solid, then return to Production.

Edited August 9, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[ATLDave]

The issue with PCC is that everyone else shoots the same course of fire.  The differences are differences in equipment and how it is used to solve the problem presented - not a difference in the problem itself.

 

The uprange issue is really the least of it.  A HUGE part of the challenge of USPSA stages is getting a grip on the gun, whether off the draw or a table or from a box or whatever.  So much so that it is written into the rules that a stage cannot allow a handgun competitor to start the stage with their pistol in-hand.  Yet most PCC start positions, including the lazy default ones in the USPSA "best practices" document and most of the PCC classifier addenda, begin with the gun in a firing grip already. 

 

A little thought on the part of an MD (and USPSA for classifiers and "default" start positions) could remedy this by requiring holds on the PCC that are different than the firing grip.  But that's rather far afield from whether uprange starts generally add anything.  IMO, they do.  They don't make a stage good (or bad) by themselves, but they require both some footwork skills and force the shooter to start looking somewhere other than the target and acquire it on the clock.

[GeneBray]

I stand corrected on a violation of USPSA principles.  Misread (or read what I wanted to read) in the principles.  Thank you for asking so I could correct my misstatement.

 

[fishhunter3]

 no bathtub starts please, last one was enough to watch

On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 3:03 PM, GrumpyOne said:

Try this one, but you'll need some props...

 

"Laying fully reclined in bathtub, gun loaded and facing downrange on the bathroom vanity. Upon start signal, exit bathtub and engage targets as they become visible."

 

[theblacknight]

Not DQing is a skill. People who are less skilled at this have a term for their lack of skill called "DQ traps".  

 

A shooting problem may happen in any direction in relation to the shooter. It seems as though IPSC tends to have a more varied shooting challenge then USPSA, start positions included. 

[IHAVEGAS]

15 minutes ago, theblacknight said:

Not DQing is a skill. People who are less skilled at this have a term for their lack of skill called "DQ traps".  

 

Sort of, but the term is also used by many highly skilled people who get dq'd and by course designers that want their match to be more about fun than disappointment. 

 

I think there is kind of a balance between providing a challenge and providing a guarantee that a certain stage will get 12 people booted from a large match. 

[theblacknight]

If a stage compels a shooter into a DQ, that stage is probably 99% illegal. 

 

If the stage is legal, it's not a DQ trap, the *shooter(s) is/are DQ prone. Major matches are where things like proper application of the rulebook to gun handling, equipment etc catches up with people who are used to lax local matches where the shooting challenges are more pedestrian, or are more about carnival entertainment then testing skills in practical shooting.  

[IHAVEGAS]

14 minutes ago, theblacknight said:

 

If the stage is legal, it's not a DQ trap, the *shooter(s) is/are DQ prone. Major matches are where things like proper application of the rulebook to gun handling, equipment etc catches up with people who are used to lax local matches where the shooting challenges are more pedestrian, or are more about carnival entertainment then testing skills in practical shooting.  

 

I'm sure that you are aware that the very best shooters sometimes get dq'd and that at a given match there is often one particular stage where a disproportionate number of the dq's happen. 

 

[theblacknight]

If the stage didn't get DQ'ed and the shooters did, that's not a match problem. 

 

I recently took a class with someone who teaches his techniques thru the prism of spending $$$$$ to attended major IPSC matches. Part of this was the understanding that it's your job to stay well inside of the RO's perceptions of the rulebook. 

 

A "DQ trap" is a collection of shooters who have collectively assumed that they've been victimized in some way. There is no such thing. 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

As you wish. 

[GeneBray]

If the stage didn't get DQ'ed and the shooters did, that's not a match problem.   

I recently took a class with someone who teaches his techniques thru the prism of spending $$$$$ to attended major IPSC matches. Part of this was the understanding that it's your job to stay well inside of the RO's perceptions of the rulebook. 

 

A "DQ trap" is a collection of shooters who have collectively assumed that they've been victimized in some way. There is no such thing. 

 

 

I would disagree with this statement -- to a degree. All to frequently you can attend a level II or III match and find one or more stages that do not comply with the USPSA rules. The most common issues involves violating the following:

 

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis.

 

2.1.1 Physical Construction – ...Course design should prevent inadvertent unsafe actions wherever possible. ...

 

2.1.2 Safe Angles of Fire – Courses of fire must always be constructed to ensure safe angles of fire.

 

A competitor whose home club(s) rigidly adhere to these rules shows up at a major match expecting the same only to find the same rules are not enforced or not done so rigidly is far more likely to DQ at the match for a 180 violation while engaging targets because their shooting experience cemented in their mind if a target is visible I can safely engage it.

 

I consider that a "180 trap".

 

That said I also believe it is the shooter's responsibility to know when and where a target can be safely engaged. Which means it is not a trap; the shooter should have noted the 180 issue(s) and determined how to shoot the stage and not violate safety rules.

 

An axiom in firearms handling is the person handling/using the firearm is responsible for the safe handling and operation of the firearm. Which by extrapolation means if a COF allows the shooter to do something unsafe, it is the shooters responsibility not to and operate/handle the firearm safely. A good example is opening a door on a stage. Ample opportunity for sweeping. It is the shooter's responsibility to not sweep themselves. Another example is 180 violations during movement. I've seen people DQ for 180 violations while moving almost directly downrange albeit very rarely. Lateral movement is a different issue. In both cases opportunity is there and the shooter is responsible for safe gun handling.

 

The difference between these examples and target visibility beyond the 180 line is safe target placement is within the control of the match staff. The other examples are not unless we want to eliminate doors and/or movement in the sport. That would kill USPSA and IPSC. I see no one advocating the sport commit suicide. (Well, the antigun crowd is an exception.)

 

The rules I cited are within the control of match staff. Staff can design good challenging stages providing multiple solutions to the freestyle portion of our sport. All to frequently we get lazy.

 

This getting too long so I will stop with one more comment. Yes I do understand clubs may have issues with props and stage design. That means the club must work to solve any prop shortages which hindered safe stages. That is clearly a club management responsibility. If management does want to or will not solve the problem. Find club members who can.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Eureka1911]

I recently shot a match where a stage had an up range start with the first set of target at about 179 degrees. Nobody on my 16 person squad got DQ'd. Everybody was very careful on that first set. 

[tanks]

On 8/8/2017 at 8:43 AM, GeneBray said:

...That said, if PCC were restricted to SBR of an appropriate length then it probably could fit within the principles. Suspect the same for IDPA. Then that change imposes a huge cost to the shooters...

 

That would make it illegal for a number of States which don't allow any rifle barrel of less than 16" period.

[perttime]

Last Sunday, I shot an IPSC match where one of the stages had something like a 270 degree angle of fire.... Berms almost completely surrounding the "pit", and props and targets arranged so that the RO had no trouble staying out of the way. Start Normal Standing Anywhere in the Designated Shooting Area.

[HCH]

No, but does anything really "add" to the sport?

 

Unloaded starts? Why?

Loaded gun on a table? Why?

Odd props? Why?

Retreat stages? Why?

 

It's all just something different than the usual stuff. That's what makes the sport dynamic, and interesting. 

 

And, PCC is fun, and the only people who should care about PCC are those shooting PCC at any particular match. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by HCH

[IHAVEGAS]

10 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

And, PCC is fun, and the only people who should care about PCC are those shooting PCC at any particular match. 

 

Really the only thing I care about is that sometimes you almost need to have the timer on top of the gun to be sure and pick up the last shot, and that is not always a very safe place for an r.o. to be. 

[HCH]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Really the only thing I care about is that sometimes you almost need to have the timer on top of the gun to be sure and pick up the last shot, and that is not always a very safe place for an r.o. to be. 

 

I can agree with that

[Nik Habicht]

On 8/17/2017 at 3:17 PM, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I'm sure that you are aware that the very best shooters sometimes get dq'd and that at a given match there is often one particular stage where a disproportionate number of the dq's happen. 

 

That doesn't necessarily mean there was a DQ trap -- the stage could have simply included a valid shooting test, such as offering the option to shoot straight downrange at this target at 35 yards, or encounter it later, at ten yards, at an oblique angle close to the 180 -- and the competitors chose poorly or failed the test.....

 

As Harry Callahan was fond of saying in Magnum Force "A Man's got to know his limitations." 

[perttime]

5 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

That doesn't necessarily mean there was a DQ trap -- the stage could have simply included a valid shooting test, such as offering the option to shoot straight downrange at this target at 35 yards, or encounter it later, at ten yards, at an oblique angle close to the 180 -- and the competitors chose poorly or failed the test.....

 

As Harry Callahan was fond of saying in Magnum Force "A Man's got to know his limitations." 

 

Yep, at a recent Match one of the options was to get up on a platform and shoot most targets from there. Shooting poppers with No-Shoots behind them, at the other end of the course, did not appeal to me, so went for moving forward and retreating, to get the targets through doorways. Done that way ,some of the targets were close to 180, and there were 2 or 3 to shoot during retreating.

[IHAVEGAS]

9 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

That doesn't necessarily mean there was a DQ trap -- the stage could have simply included a valid shooting test, such as offering the option to shoot straight downrange at this target at 35 yards, or encounter it later, at ten yards, at an oblique angle close to the 180 -- and the competitors chose poorly or failed the test.....

 

As Harry Callahan was fond of saying in Magnum Force "A Man's got to know his limitations." 

 

Gets down to definitions and perspectives I think.

 

If you are the shooter, there are no dq traps, it is your responsibility to solve the stage within the rules.

 

If you are setting the targets & the walls, you want everyone to be safe and have fun and you are looking to minimize places where an r.o. might end up in a bad spot or a shooter might trip over an entry way, or where you might have to send a lot of folks home. I think part of the art of stage design and construction (ain't saying I am good at it but I have helped people that were) is maximum fun and challenge with a minimum of incidents during the match. 

[Nik Habicht]

14 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Gets down to definitions and perspectives I think.

 

If you are the shooter, there are no dq traps, it is your responsibility to solve the stage within the rules.

 

If you are setting the targets & the walls, you want everyone to be safe and have fun and you are looking to minimize places where an r.o. might end up in a bad spot or a shooter might trip over an entry way, or where you might have to send a lot of folks home. I think part of the art of stage design and construction (ain't saying I am good at it but I have helped people that were) is maximum fun and challenge with a minimum of incidents during the match. 

Mostly I'm with you.  My perspective is based on 6-7 years of competing heavily and about the same amount of time designing and building stages, running shooters, and working as an RM at a couple of Sectionals....

 

Folks who only do one or the other may skew apart a little more than a member with experience on both sides of the timer/clipboard.....