Do uprange starts really add anything to a stage?

[Sandbagger123]

Everytime I see a uprange start stage I ask myself why.  I don't see them adding anything to the stage.  Great way to DQ the less experienced .  I have also seen enough times that people that drew the gun early got away with it .  

So what are your thoughts on uprange starts 

[aandabooks]

I like a couple mixed in per match.  Doesn't give the opportunity to be looking at the stage while waiting for buzzer.  It is another skill to be mastered.  Safety is the first issue and executing a turn and draw safely is something to be practiced.

[perttime]

It seems to be a rare thing in IPSC. People might do El Prez in practice but I haven't seen it in contests recently. I guess it isn't interesting enough to include in matches.

 

In my IPSC region, you are required to pass an exam before they let you compete: safety rules and a shooting test. I recall the test includes 90 and 180 degree turns at the beep. At my club you cannot even practice unsupervised before you pass the test.

[3gunDQ]

It adds at least a half a second... unless you shoot pcc. I think PCC shooters should have to start unloaded every time since the start with the damn gun in their hands.

 

I like up range starts, if you do not like them or are uncomfortable doing it.... practice it, a lot.

[GeneBray]

It adds at least a half a second... unless you shoot pcc. I think PCC shooters should have to start unloaded every time since the start with the damn gun in their hands.
 
I like up range starts, if you do not like them or are uncomfortable doing it.... practice it, a lot.

With practice, up range starts don't add time. Didn't believe that until a class years ago. Down range draws were pushed to 0.8 seconds. Uprange, while practicing, the instructor started dropping the par time by 0.1 sec without saying a thing. Most were completing the draws with A hits most of the time in 0.8 second.

Question. How does PCC start position affect you and your shooting? So, why start unloaded? Makes as much sense to say open, limited and production should start with 8 rounds since single stack has too. And, if one division has to start unloaded, why not all? You are completing against those in your division so PCC start position doesn't affect you.


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[Racinready300ex]

It's more challenging, and a different skill set to test.

 

You don't start just staring at your target, you have to turn your head and acquire your target before you can engage it. The turn at speed can throw off your balance, or at least you may end up in a less than ideal stance.

 

While I'm really good a "facing down range, hands at sides" I don't want to see that be the only start position.

[GunBugBit]

It's part of the game, not going away, enjoy it.

[IHAVEGAS]

I do not see any plusses, but they do not bother me. 

[davsco]

i like them from time to time, adds a little challenge, something different.  yeah for pcc, maybe say mag in, empty chamber.

[perttime]

I wouldn't start with a long gun in hands, facing uprange.

 

With pistols, sure, it is another skill. Just like starting seated, while holding a tray, hands on a pinball machine, etc.....

Edited August 4, 2017 by perttime

[teros135]

Long guns don't start facing uprange in USPSA, any time.

[IronArcher]

To me, they add nothing. Not (significant amounts of) time, not challenge, not entertainment.... nothing.
I don't think they should be done away with, but if you think this is what is going to make your stage great, you are wrong.
I wouldn't mind if they were used less, I wouldn't mind if some were exchanged for 90 degree starts.
To me, they are simply "meh".


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[davsco]

yeah for pcc above i meant to say normally facing downrange, but mag in empty chamber

[Gary Stevens]

1 hour ago, davsco said:

yeah for pcc above i meant to say normally facing downrange, but mag in empty chamber

 

Since one division has zero effect on another, where is the problem whatever PCC does?

[davsco]

eh cmon, we all look at overall scores, right?  whether i'm shooting ltd, open, pcc or whatever, i still like to see how i did overall, especially if buddies are shooting different divisions.

[revoman]

1 hour ago, davsco said:

eh cmon, we all look at overall scores, right?  whether i'm shooting ltd, open, pcc or whatever, i still like to see how i did overall, especially if buddies are shooting different divisions.

 

Yeah we do but again why does it matter what ppc does? If ppc has an advantage then so does open, limited and any other division that has more than 8 rounds in a mag.

Hell all divisions should be minor only and 8 rounds only so that when you look at overall you will feel better about yourself.

If you don't like ppc just cross them off the final standings and see how you did against the others.

It is that simple.

✌

[rowdyb]

up range starts are with us because of the early history of the sport. it will always be around.

 

i'd much rather do an uprange start than any of the gimmicky "stand just like this, holding this thing just so" kind of starts.

[MemphisMechanic]

20 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

i'd much rather do an uprange start than any of the gimmicky "stand just like this, holding this thing just so" kind of starts.

 

So you want me to scrap my Statue of Liberty start when you come shoot with us in two weeks?

 

Facing uprage, phone book cradled under one arm, paper maché torch held aloft in the other....

[GrumpyOne]

59 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

So you want me to scrap my Statue of Liberty start when you come shoot with us in two weeks?

 

Facing uprage, phone book cradled under one arm, paper maché torch held aloft in the other....

Try this one, but you'll need some props...

 

"Laying fully reclined in bathtub, gun loaded and facing downrange on the bathroom vanity. Upon start signal, exit bathtub and engage targets as they become visible."

[rowdyb]

3 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

So you want me to scrap my Statue of Liberty start when you come shoot with us in two weeks?

 

Facing uprage, phone book cradled under one arm, paper maché torch held aloft in the other....

I'll do it. I'll just roll my eyes and sigh.

 

After the 22 hour round trip drive for Area3 and a whole week of forecasted rain we'll see how far i'll want to drive this weekend...

[motosapiens]

On 8/6/2017 at 4:06 PM, rowdyb said:

 

After the 22 hour round trip drive for Area3 

 

luxury. 19 hours *each* way for us, plus dog stops.

 

I don't care about uprange starts at all, but if some people don't like them, that is more than enough reason for me to keep them. Whiners should play golf or something.

[StratRider]

On 8/4/2017 at 7:24 PM, davsco said:

eh cmon, we all look at overall scores, right?  whether i'm shooting ltd, open, pcc or whatever, i still like to see how i did overall, especially if buddies are shooting different divisions.

actually I do not compare my SSP shooting to PCC at all.  30 rnd. mags, optics, lasers if they want, start with gun in hand, never face uprange - and in my humble opinion they violate the basic premise of IDPA as written in the rulebook itself on Page 2 :

Our main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual. Equipment that is designed with no application for daily, concealed carry is not permitted in this sport.

1.2.1 Equipment Principles
Allowed equipment will meet the following criteria:
A. Concealable:  blah blah

B. Practical: All equipment must be practical for all day concealed carry self-defense

 

I do my own spreadsheets with the match data and move all PCC shooters to the bottom of the page to never be considered for items like RAW score or Accuracy.

I do compare myself to ESP more as a challenge since they have a slight edge and I would not boast about beating a CDP or CCP shooter unless they were at least 1 class ahead of me.

[GeneBray]

actually I do not compare my SSP shooting to PCC at all.  30 rnd. mags, optics, lasers if they want, start with gun in hand, never face uprange - and in my humble opinion they violate the basic premise of IDPA as written in the rulebook itself on Page 2 :
Our main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual. Equipment that is designed with no application for daily, concealed carry is not permitted in this sport.
1.2.1 Equipment Principles
Allowed equipment will meet the following criteria:
A. Concealable:  blah blah
B. Practical: All equipment must be practical for all day concealed carry self-defense
 
I do my own spreadsheets with the match data and move all PCC shooters to the bottom of the page to never be considered for items like RAW score or Accuracy.
I do compare myself to ESP more as a challenge since they have a slight edge and I would not boast about beating a CDP or CCP shooter unless they were at least 1 class ahead of me.

First I don't shoot IDPA. Second, I agree fully with your comment on IDPA rules.

To me PCC also violates the principles of USPSA.

That said, if PCC were restricted to SBR of an appropriate length then it probably could fit within the principles. Suspect the same for IDPA. Then that change imposes a huge cost to the shooters.


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[Thomas H]

20 hours ago, GeneBray said:

To me PCC also violates the principles of USPSA.
 

 

What principles does it violate?

[IHAVEGAS]

50 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

What principles does it violate?

 

The one where USPSA is supposed to always be cooler than IDPA.