Eggleston .357 124gr coated bullet issues

[promtcy]

I ordered 500 of these a while back and after reloading the last of my plated bullets I did some testing to see what my seating depth/COL was going to be with this truncated cone profile.  I discovered that I seem to have an issue with the .357 diameter in both barrels I tried it in. The case will not plunk and spin unless the bullet shoulder is completely inside the case mouth. That puts the max COL at 1.075 and means the shoulder of the bullet is not inside the free bore at all. Eggleston has load data on the site and they list the COL at 1.100, although they have a listing of 1.06 for some discontinued 125gr bullets. 

 

The barrels are from a 9mm M&P and a Para Pro Custom P18.9. I would expect the Para to be finicky, it's supposed to be a "match grade" barrel. I didn't expect to see the same issue with the M&P barrel. Eggleston recommends the .357 size and they say it chambers reliably in all their test pistols.

 

I slugged the Para barrel and it's .355 but I don't know of a way to check the diameter of the free bore area. I don't know if it's supposed to bigger than the bore grooves or not. I've been using RMR plated round nose 115's loaded at 1.15 COL. They are .355 diameter. They have been insanely accurate in the Para with 4.8 gr's of HP38.  

 

The plan with the Egglestons was to use Prima V and it looks like it'll be around 3.9gr to make PF from what I can tell from others posted loads. So a little less powder in the case. 

 

I tried sanding off some of the coating on the shoulder to reduce the diameter. It ended up at .354 and the shoulder does go in the free bore area in the Para and the COL is 1.14  and in the M&P it would spin at 1.16

 

At some point in the future I was planning on trying some 135gr bullets for the Para and I'm concerned I may not be able to do that without having someone tweak the barrel. I'd rather not touch this barrel. 

 

Btw, yes I know I should have at least slugged the barrel first. Then I would have started with .356 diameter and at least narrowed down my options if they didn't fit.

 

So should I care about the diameter of the free bore area and that I will have to load these Eggleston bullets so short? I'm thinking these would not be safe and I'd prefer to load longer even if they are. Should I try some .356 coated (possibly a round nose profile) and see if those will load longer? 

 

Thanks in advance. 

[MemphisMechanic]

M&P barrels tend to slug at .3555" or so, and havevery short chambers. They are also hardened and ruin traditional chamber reamers.

 

I believe your issue is bullet diameter. Here's a .356" Black Bullets International 125 TC loaded all the way out to 1.150" ... and dropping/spinning freely into an M&P factory barrel.

 

(In a feat of marvelous timing, I received a test batch of these in the mail today and loaded up a few dummy rounds about 3 hours ago.)

 

 

Bullet profile is also highly important. A short fat bullet with a wide shoulder (like a 147 round nose) will need to be loaded shorter than one that has a long pointy profile like a  truncated cone.

Edited August 2, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[promtcy]

I Didn't know that about M&P's, interesting. 

 

The Egglestons I have are the same profile as the BBI's. I guess the smartest thing to do since I can't figure out an accurate way to measure the free bore area is to just order some samples. 

 

Thanks for the info and reply. Great pics. Oh and you just picked up a new subscriber. 

[MemphisMechanic]

4 hours ago, promtcy said:

The Egglestons I have are the same profile as the BBI's. I guess the smartest thing to do since I can't figure out an accurate way to measure the free bore area is to just order some samples. 

 

Yeah, Bullet diameter is a huge factor. Blue bullets are also known for being able to be loaded longer than many other coated profiles. I can load FMJs from Precision Delta or MG the longest, and apparently plated Xtreme bullets are similarly helpful - but I haven't shot FMJ since discovering coated, and have never shot plated bullets.

 

4 hours ago, promtcy said:

Thanks for the info and reply. Great pics. Oh and you just picked up a new subscriber. 

 

I didn't know you could have subscribers! 

[promtcy]

I just ordered 100 .356 from Eggleston so we'll see where I end up. I tried to very lightly sand the coating to .356 and it seemed to work. It will plunk and spin in the Para barrel at 1.11 so it should be good to go. In the M&P barrel they'll plunk and spin at 1.14. I measured quite a few bullets this morning and with two different sets of calipers, one digital, they all measured .358. 

 

Blue bullets list theirs at .355 so if I truly need that I'll try those out or ask Eggleston or someone else about getting them in that size or try something with a round nose profile. I read the SNS flat points can be loaded longer. 

 

I subscribed to your YouTube channel.

 

Thanks again, I appreciate the help. 

[MemphisMechanic]

14 hours ago, promtcy said:

I measured quite a few bullets this morning and with two different sets of calipers, one digital, they all measured .358. 

 

That's... less than ideal to spin freely in a 9mm. 

 

Quote

 

Blue bullets list theirs at .355 so if I truly need that I'll try those out or ask Eggleston or someone else about getting them in that size or try something with a round nose profile. I read the SNS flat points can be loaded longer. 

 

If your goal is to load as long as possible, look for pointier profiles like a 124 round nose similar to Blue Bullets, which has a very slender profile. Or better yet, a TC profile like my photo above. A fat 147 or 135 RN is generally the worst case for loading long.

 

Quote

 

I subscribed to your YouTube channel.

 

Ahh. That makes sense now.

[promtcy]

The calipers might be off, I'll just have to wait and see what the .356 rounds do. 

 

The Egglestons are a TC profile, they look exactly like the ones in your pic. 

[IDescribe]

BBI are a bit over-sized themselves.  I haven't bought any in quite some time, but I have a few old 135gr ones from shortly after their switch to Hi-Tek, and those are .357.   And I have twice recently in forums asked other people to measure their BBI and had them come up .357.   I also know people who order the .357 Blue Bullets for their 9mm pistols.  .357 is fine for 9mm in terms of diameter.  Whether or not it's going to force you to an OAL that's too short is a different matter. 

So, .358 should also work fine, but if your chamber's leade/throat is short enough, then it may just force you to load deeper in the case than what you want.  You shouldn't seat the shoulder deeper than the case mouth.  That's a limit you shouldn't cross.  If you have enough of them to matter, call Eggleston and tell them you figured out your problem, that you order .357 and they sent you .358, and ask that they be replaced.

Good luck.

[promtcy]

Thanks for weighing in. I didn't explain what's happening well enough or I've used the wrong terminology or I'm just plain wrong. I don't think the length of the leade/throat area is the issue, it's the diameter. The bullets are not contacting the barrel lands, they won't go into what I've always known as the freebore. I think that's what you mean by leade/throat. At any rate it's the area just past where the case mouth stops and before the lands and grooves start. 

 

The bullets I have are seem to be too large in diameter to go into that area. I used a fired case and inserted a bullet into it, then pushed it into the chamber to find out how far it was pushing the bullet into the case when the case was seated. The only way the case will seat is if the shoulder of the bullet is actually just inside the case mouth. If I sand off some of the coating on the shoulder to reduce the diameter I can then feel the bullet contact the lands. Seating the reduced diameter bullet to 1.11 they will plunk and spin in my barrel and there is some shoulder sticking out of the case. 

 

I am going to wait until I get the .356 samples and see how that works. I've only got 500 of the ones that won't fit but if the .356 work fine I'll see if Eggleston can work something out with me. Despite them measuring larger than what they are supposed too, it's still my fault for not slugging my barrel first. I wouldn't have ordered .357 if I had done that first. Either way I should have only ordered the 100 sample instead of 500. 

[Sandbagger123]

Could it be you are closing the bell enough? the crimp should be .378/9

[promtcy]

Just a follow up. I got the .356 sample from Eggleston in. Most measure .357 with my calipers. They will plunk and spin at 1.085 in the Para barrel and there is some small amount of shoulder/bearing surface showing ahead of the case mouth. In the M&P they are fine at 1.16

 

I'm going to try get some loaded up and get to the range this Thursday and see how they shoot and chrono them. Hopefully they'll feed ok in the Para at this length. 

 

I did some searching and it looks like Blue Bullets is the only company that has coated bullets standard sized at .355, so I'm going to order a sample of those next. SNS notes that .355 can be requested. I've just got to figure out what profile and size work the best. I've got it wired in my brain that I need to load longer than what these are allowing yet I know that all that really matters is how they feed and shoot. 

[MemphisMechanic]

I'd check the para barrel with an FMJ first in a similar test.

 

It sounds like there's a good chance it might simply have a very short freebore, and a date with a finishing reamer could fix things up nicely so that both guns will take loads out to 1.150-1.160.

 

Or it could indeed be bullet diameter, but I'd want to be sure first.

[promtcy]

Yep, that's what I'm trying to figure out. With the RMR round nose plated 115's that are .355 In the Para I can load to 1.15, I just don't know if that's because of the profile or the diameter or the combination. Comparing a 115 rounded nose to a 124 TC isn't apples to apples though. 

 

My curious nature wants to know the diameter of the freebore. I am going to look around my area and see if I can find a machine shop that could measure it for me. Failing that I may try stuffing some modeling clay in it and put it in the freezer. Hopefully I could get get it out without deforming it and then I could measure it.   

[promtcy]

I got some samples in from different companies to try. The Blue Bullets 125 gr TC that measure .355 and some 125 gr RN from SNS Casting that are .356 so I'd be able to check different profiles as well as diameter. 

 

The Blue Bullets will plunk and spin at 1.10, the SNS have to be 1.090 so it looks like the diameter is affecting things. The Blue Bullets and the Eggleston are the same profile but the Eggleston's require a shorter seating depth. Some of the .356 Eggleston's will spin at 1.090, some won't. 

 

I also checked my crimp as sandbagger suggested and it's .376 to .377  I pulled a couple to make sure the crimp wasn't causing any of the coating to come off and it looked good. 

 

I'm doing some loading now with Prima V at 3.5, 3.7 and 3.9 grains. I'm doing them one at a time and checking everything on every round. I won't get a chance to chrono them until next Thursday though. 

 

I don't know that it makes any difference but the coating on The Blue Bullets and the SNS Casting are pretty smooth compared to the Eggleston's. Not sure if it's the coating or the bullet mold. I do like the variety in colors for the Egglestons though. I have a Para P16.40 and it's identical to the P18.9 so I color code things for them so I can easily tell what I'm grabbing. Blue for the 40, red for the 9mm. 

 

Thanks again for the help. 

[promtcy]

I finally got out to chrono some rounds today. I tested The Blue Bullets 125 gr TC .355, Eggleston 124 TC .356 and SNS 125 RN .356 loaded at the OAL's I listed above. I did 15 rounds of each bullet loaded at 3.5, 3.7 and 3.9 grains of Prima V. So 45 rounds of each bullet. I didn't have any feeding problems at all. I did have a tulammo case blow out though. That was a first and I had already decided during loading that I wasn't using anymore tula cases. They felt stiff when going through the sizing die and didn't seem to be consistent as far as length, etc. 

 

All of them are well over min PF at 3.5 grains. 

Egglestons avg:   1077 FPS  133PF

BB avg:   1082.20 FPS  135PF

SNS avg:  1073.60 FPS  134PF

 

I think I can hit 130 PF with 3.3 grains using the Egglestons or BB. Std Dev was mostly 7-8 with a couple at 10. 

 

I really wasn't impressed with the accuracy of anything at all. I shot a target behind the chrono at 35 feet and the smallest group was 3 inches, the biggest just over 5. The Egglestons were the most consistent groups. I had the sun in my eyes so I grabbed the 7 Federal 115 gr rounds out of my carry gun and I shot a 1.5" group. I know I suck, but that seems to indicate to me that ammo was the issue, not me. I even grabbed my 40 (which I normally don't shoot as well as the 9) and put 10 rounds in a 1.5" group. 

 

I'm going to load up some more this week and take some of my RMR reloads and some factory ammo and do some more work. 

 

I got a sample of the .401 Egglestons TC for my P16.40. I have the same issue with them as far as diameter. They won't fit inside the free bore. So I guess I got lucky and got some finicky barrels or I'm doing something wrong. 

[IDescribe]

With accuracy that poor, you might be over-crimping.  Measure right at the mouth.  A lot of people will do .377/.378.  I typically go .379 with coated lead, sometimes .380.

You may also find that the bullets shoot more accurately at a different average muzzle velocity.  My CZ-75 ShadowLine, for example, almost always sees groups with 124gr/125gr bullets tighten up with an average muzzle velocity somewhere between 1060 and 1080.  With some bullet and powder combos it's closer to 1060, others closer to 1080, but as I test loads, things almost always tighten up somewhere in that range with 124/125gr bullets.

[promtcy]

My crimp was .376/.377 so I'll try less crimp. Accuracy didn't really seem to change much as the muzzle velocity went up so we'll see if it gets better as it goes down. Velocity seems to avg about 30fps per .2 grains so I'll try it at 3.3 and 3.4 grains this week.  

 

I'm a member at PMRPC and they have a reloading group that meets once a month. I'm going to go this month and see if I can learn something. I've been out of reloading for a long time and this is my first time with a progressive press. Although right now I'm reloading one round at a time. 

[promtcy]

Well after Irma ruined my plans they finally opened up our range and I got out to shoot today.

 

I am using a Lee FCD and after some experimenting I found that just backing out the crimp portion and letting the round go through the die the crimp comes out to .379 so I went with that. 

 

I loaded up 10 rounds each of all the coated samples I have with 3.3 and 3.4 grains of Prima V. Accuracy is better than with a tighter crimp and everything makes PF. 3.3 grains is kinda close. It was about 4 degrees hotter than last time I shot. I also shot some Federal 115's, some RMR plated 115's (I think they are actually Rainiers) and tested some 124gr FMJ reloads from Space Coast Bullets. All the 124's shot higher than the 115's which is what I expected. With two exceptions I still got the best groups from the factory and RMR 115's. The 124gr FMJ's were a pretty similar group to the 115's. The exceptions with the coated bullets was the SNS Round Nose at 3.3 grains and the Blue Bullets at 3.4 grains. The SNS 10 round group was really tight. The avg velocity for those was 1029. Min was 1008, max 1052. The 1008 seemed to be an oddball. SD was 12 on that group. The 3.4 grain group of SNS wasn't anything to write home about. The BB group was about the same as any of the plated or FMJ stuff. 

 

So I'm a little perplexed with the accuracy results. With the exception of the two groups I don't seem to be getting acceptable accuracy from coated bullets. At least 124/125 grain ones anyway.

 

After reading IDescribe's last post again I guess I found the sweet spot for two of the bullets. I just didn't find one for the Eggleston's. Maybe my gun doesn't like a .356 TC profile. 

 

I do like the Prima V though. It meters really well, it has better SD than HP-38, has no smoke and the gun is still super clean. 

[IDescribe]

Well, you actually opened up another important detail.  The LEE FCD is notorious for screwing up cartridges with lead bullets.  The FCD is designed to form the entire cartridge, not just the case mouth, down to some specific dimensions, to match apparently some un-named factory in some marketer's dreams.  They can end up swaging bullet bases inside the case, and that will degrade accuracy.

The FCD can get your cartridges to fit some case gauge if you think that's important.  And they can screw up loads with with lead sized .356 or greater.  And as far as I can tell, not much else.  If you tell me you're having trouble getting accuracy out of lead, and you tell me you're using an FCD, I'll tell you I'm not surprised.  My honest recommendation at this point is to get a new taper crimp die that doesn't do anything more than taper crimp, which is all of them.  Except the one you have.   

 

And now you should expect a sound-off from people who use FCDs and "never had a problem".  

[Steve RA]

I use a standard Lee seating die, use .358 diameter coated bullets in my Kart barrel and get good accuracy.  So far have not been able to match my .45ACP accuracy with the 9mm, close but not equal yet.  I'll continue to keep trying !!!

[promtcy]

 

Lol, I'm not surprised you said that. When I realized that the FCD was "crimping" without the crimp part even touching I looked at exactly how the die works. I haven't had time yet but I will be looking for a taper crimp die this week. I think the sizing ring can be removed from the FCD but it isn't going to hurt me to have a true taper crimp die. 

 

I'm also going to order some Cerrosafe and make a cast of my chamber. Just for fun. 

[promtcy]

So just a little update on this. I got some Cerrosafe but haven't made a chamber cast just yet. I also got a taper crimp die and got some rounds loaded up. I haven't been able to shoot anything because our range has only been open a couple days since the hurricanes because of flooding. The plan is to go out next Thursday. 

 

The reason I wanted to update a little is to say something good about Eggleston Munitions. I sent them an email explaining what was going on and asked if they would consider swapping out the .357 bullets for some .356 or .355 if they had them. I made sure to mention this was strictly my fault for ordering 500 before I knew what I needed. I was hoping to just swap them out and expected to pay shipping for the return and the new bullets. I didn't want this to cost them anything. 

 

Chris Eggleston sent me this reply: "We actually don't have a .355" sizing die, but we can get a hold of one within a week or two. We can definitely swap them out for you, let me know how many you have left of each and we can send you a return shipping label for a USPS flat rate box. It sounds like .355" is probably the better option for you, I know some match-grade barrels are extremely tight and unforgiving with cast bullets." 

 

They went above and beyond what they should have.   It also seems like getting 9mm in .355 from them in the future will be an option.  

 

 

 

 

[Furrly]

always buy a sample pack from the bullet maker, it is usually  around 100 rounds. i learned the hard way just like your self...you can always have your barrels reamed as well...

 

good luck