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Is this a trick question? Keep in mind the instructions clearly state you can site a rule or an appendix etc.

 

A competitor momentarily loses control of his handgun during a course of fire. The shooter traps the gun between his arm and body (without having broken the 180 or sweeping himself). What is your ruling? [Question 24]
You have answered this question incorrectly
A No harm, no foul  
B Match DQ for unsafe gun handling <- Your answer <- Correct answer  
C No harm, no foul as long as the safety was applied or the slide was locked back  
D No penalty if it occured after he showed clear  
  Your answer to Rule: A3
  Correct answer to rule: 10.5.3
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Kevin,

Troy can probably provide the formal answer.  I've always answered this question by citing 10.5.3 as that is really the info I need to rule.  Appendix A3 defines a dropped gun for me, but it doesn't provide guidance of what to do about it -- i.e. that it's a match DQ.  That's my best guess on why A3 was not acceptable.....

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I emailed Troy a little while ago. This is what I sent him by way of explanation.

 

Hi Troy,

Just took my online recert and believe this question should be looked at. While 10.5.3 is the blanket rule for a dropped gun, only A3 spells out the following:
Gun only has to be out of shooters control to be considered dropped.
Gun does not have to hit the ground to be considered dropped.
Dropped also includes trapped.
Based on these items in the rules book A3 clearly seems to be the best answer to the question. My guess is there are many RO's who only read 10.5.3 to mean dropped on the ground.
 
Regards,
 Kevin
 
A competitor momentarily loses control of his handgun during a course of fire. The shooter traps the gun between his arm and body (without having broken the 180 or sweeping himself). What is your ruling? [Question 24]
You have answered this question incorrectly
A No harm, no foul  
B Match DQ for unsafe gun handling <- Your answer <- Correct answer  
C No harm, no foul as long as the safety was applied or the slide was locked back  
D No penalty if it occured after he showed clear  
  Your answer to Rule: A3
  Correct answer to rule: 10.5.3
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7 minutes ago, Dr Mitch said:

One of my friends got that one "wrong" for the exact same reason last week.  

Yeah, I can see it as face value being 10.5.3 but only A3 describes why 10.5.3 applies. If an RO does not know what A3 says then they won't apply 10.5.3.

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2 hours ago, Sarge said:

Yeah, I can see it as face value being 10.5.3 but only A3 describes why 10.5.3 applies. If an RO does not know what A3 says then they won't apply 10.5.3.

Spinning this around for a second, and looking at it from the point of view of an arb panel:

 

I can also see this as a question of discernment -- if I'm sitting on an arb panel, and you only cite the entirety of A3 as your reason for DQing a competitor, I may vote to overturn.

 

Cite 10.5.3, and it becomes much easier to uphold a DQ.  Easiest would be 10.5.3 and definition of "dropped gun" in Appendix A3.

 

So, seen as a hierarchy 10.5.3 trumps A3.  I'm interested in Troy's take....

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51 minutes ago, Nik Habicht said:

Spinning this around for a second, and looking at it from the point of view of an arb panel:

 

I can also see this as a question of discernment -- if I'm sitting on an arb panel, and you only cite the entirety of A3 as your reason for DQing a competitor, I may vote to overturn.

 

Cite 10.5.3, and it becomes much easier to uphold a DQ.  Easiest would be 10.5.3 and definition of "dropped gun" in Appendix A3.

 

So, seen as a hierarchy 10.5.3 trumps A3.  I'm interested in Troy's take....

Absolutely agree. I would cite 10.5.3 because I know what A3 says. If I don't know or understand what A3 says I may not even DQ the shooter.

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Well, pretty much as I figured but vastly over simplified I believe.

 

"The question asks what the RO's ruling is, not what the definition of a dropped gun is, therefore 10.5.3 is the correct response.  "
 

Troy

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I have multiple thoughts - and we probably agree more than we disagree:

  • Troy is right -- the word "ruling" makes 10.5.3 the only correct response
  • Kevin is right -- that to correctly evaluate the situation and issue the DQ under 10.5.3, one also needs to consult or be aware of the definition of "dropped gun" in Appendix A3
  • I'm less certain that this isn't well-known; that may be a geographic thing, or it's possible that it's less widely known in newer clubs than in more established ones.
  • It is covered in the RO course, to the best of my recollection.
  • I almost want there to be a follow-up question -- what other section of the rulebook needs to be consulted to fully evaluate the situation....
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Not sure regarding this same question but it's easy to find other rules that need a second reference to get it right. I.e. All of 10.4. A shot doing this, a shot doing that. But what is a shot? Glossary clears it up.

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