PCC Ready Position

[crossgun]

Just getting into PCC.  Close to having the carbine up and running.  Could someone explain the START or Ready position as I am sure there must be one?  Also any rules regarding magazine carry or placement?

[bobert1]

ALWAYS facing downrange. Buttstock on belt.

[Hammer002]

USPSA is either way unless stage description specifies.  Either shouldered and low ready or port arms = stock at belt.  Stage designers are becoming more specific by saying where to face or what to point at. The rules leave a lot to game as they are.  Even the statement facing down range leaves 180 degrees of "facing."  Watch some of the nationals videos.  Interesting stuff.

 

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

USPSA is either way unless stage description specifies.  Either shouldered and low ready or port arms = stock at belt.  Stage designers are becoming more specific by saying where to face or what to point at. The rules leave a lot to game as they are.  Even the statement facing down range leaves 180 degrees of "facing."  Watch some of the nationals videos.  Interesting stuff.

 

180 degrees of facing? Look up facing downrange in the rule book glossary. 

[crossgun]

Really?  Stock on belt with muzzle pointed up or horizontal?  So the muzzle can be above the berm?

 

Is low ready good to go? 

[MHitchcock]

Its stock on belt, muzzle down range - so close to horizontal. So no, its not supposed to be pointed up, but I have seen it done that way in videos.

 

***if stage description doesn't specify PCC start position, you can start low ready***

Edited July 24, 2017 by MHitchcock

[Sarge]

This may hurt some feelings, but often the truth hurts. I have already addressed this with a few RMI's, but stock on belt needs to go away. If you watch the fat guys, of which I am almost one, the stocks are nowhere near touching the belt. On some it's downright impossible.

[Hammer002]

6 hours ago, Sarge said:

180 degrees of facing? Look up facing downrange in the rule book glossary. 

 

I was actually making that point, it just didn't come across well in text.  Watching some of the Nationals videos was quite entertaining as to how the rule was applied.  I saw several with the muzzle on "X" starts where guys were putting the muzzle against the X, but put the gun sideways 180 degrees while stretching to stand far from the intended start position. All in good fun and gamesmanship, but I'm not sure I want to be around with entry level shooters trying it.  Locally, here, it's being addressed by stage designers specifying a specific target or popper to be pointing at with a specific place to stand, "on Xs."  I get why people like the port arms start, cause it's far slower than low ready, but you make a good point that it is subjective.

[Alvin]

What we're doing at our local matchs is allowing shouldered and then we have a flag that the shooter points at for his start postition.  Rules seem to allow different methods...but this is what we came up with after reading the rules and seeing what others' have tried.  Works well for us. 

[reshp1]

7 hours ago, Alvin said:

What we're doing at our local matchs is allowing shouldered and then we have a flag that the shooter points at for his start postition.  

 My club has started doing this. They put an orange bucket somewhere downrange you point to with the gun shouldered. 

[TISCHLJ]

After shooting PCC for several matches this season I see a lack of creativity in the start position for PCC.

My suggestions are as follows :

 

Start the PCC shooter as closely as possible to approximate the position of the pistol shooter while remaining within the safety guidelines.

 

For instance if the pistol Shooter's start position is facing up range, then turn and draw -place the PCC shooter facing up range as the pistol shooter would be with the PCC either on a barrel in front of the PCC shooter or in a barrel or other device pointed safely down range at the berm.

 

That way the PCC shooter starts basically the same position as the pistol shooter and  grabs the pcc  from what most closely approximates the pistol Shooter's draw position. 

 

Obviously other creative pcc starts can be made within the safety rules, thinking outside the port arms, low ready is a good thing. 

 

[72stick]

When starting a shooter facing up range it's a challenge to stay safe unless there's something in the WSB that forces the shooter to turn first and then draw; like starting with hands above shoulders at the buzzer. In 2012 I ROed a stage at Area 5 with the shooter facing up range at the start. The WSB had the shooter's hands in the normal start position. The CRO told us to be ready for anyone starting the draw before turning and facing down range. We had to DQ several shooters for drawing up range. Several times all the ROs yelled "STOP" at the same time. After that experience, I'll never RO another stage with any gun where the shooter faces up range unless there's something in the WSB that forces them to turn first and then draw/mount the gun down range.

[pjb45]

The rule book?

 

[SJan]

10 hours ago, TISCHLJ said:

After shooting PCC for several matches this season I see a lack of creativity in the start position for PCC.

My suggestions are as follows :

 

Start the PCC shooter as closely as possible to approximate the position of the pistol shooter while remaining within the safety guidelines.

 

For instance if the pistol Shooter's start position is facing up range, then turn and draw -place the PCC shooter facing up range as the pistol shooter would be with the PCC either on a barrel in front of the PCC shooter or in a barrel or other device pointed safely down range at the berm.

 

That way the PCC shooter starts basically the same position as the pistol shooter and  grabs the pcc  from what most closely approximates the pistol Shooter's draw position. 

 

Obviously other creative pcc starts can be made within the safety rules, thinking outside the port arms, low ready is a good thing. 

 

I see 2 problems with this. 

 

1- now there is a barrel in the way (depending on the stage it may not matter)

 

2- it's more stuff for match volunteers to set up and put away.  The same goes for a flag or traffic cone or whatever you want for a starting aiming point.  It doesn't sound like much, but the point is match directors should not need to change a stage in any way to accommodate PCC. 

 

In my opinion, the only thing necessary is a good description in the stage briefing.  I mimic what is stated in classifiers.

 

And for fat guys not being able to touch their belt, close enough is good enough.  The same considerations are made in regards to belt/gear placement.

[XD Niner]

The PCC rules really need to state a default start position similar to what is included for pistols.  The other issue is that there is no clear definition of "low ready" and "port arms" in the PCC rules.  The various classifiers don't define them.  Even the Best Practices list the option to use either yet don't define them.  Three gun has the same lack of definition.

[TISCHLJ]

What I said, barrels, etc can be positioned as applicable for rh and lh shooters...fat doesn't count. Only rules and safety.

[Sarge]

Fat, has to count. Some fat guys move quite well. And when they are starting with the gun a foot closer to their shoulder than those touching belt, that's an advantage.

[Sarge]

14 hours ago, SJan said:

 

And for fat guys not being able to touch their belt, close enough is good enough.  The same considerations are made in regards to belt/gear placement.

Not really. This is from the relevant rule,

 

"The Range Master MAY
make allowances for variations in these requirements due to
anatomical considerations. Some competitors MAY not be able
to fully comply.

 

In my experience fat guys are not just given a pass by using the , "close enough is good enough" rule.

[Jerrymarsh]

Some ranges require muzzle touching table or X on retaining wall

[OPENB]

I'm not following how a fat guys belt is closer to his shoulder. Are you saying his pants are up too high?

[MHitchcock]

1 hour ago, OPENB said:

I'm not following how a fat guys belt is closer to his shoulder. Are you saying his pants are up too high?

 

He is saying that a large man can't actually get the butt of the rifle on the belt, belly in the way. 

[OPENB]

No, he said the gun was a foot closer to the shoulder. Fat or skinny the belt goes around the waist at the same place unless one wears his pants pulled up to his nipples. I really don't see the issue. I'm not visualizing how a fat guy might have an advantage in the start position of buttstock touching belt. 

[OPENB]

There was a start recently that I thought would have been impossible that MDs should avoid. There was an "X" taped to a wall at eye level. Muzzle was to be touching the "X," stock touching belt. If I had my SBR, which is legal to use in PCC, I would not have been able to assume that starting position. Not without having the muzzle close to covering my face. 

[SJan]

8 hours ago, OPENB said:

There was a start recently that I thought would have been impossible that MDs should avoid. There was an "X" taped to a wall at eye level. Muzzle was to be touching the "X," stock touching belt. If I had my SBR, which is legal to use in PCC, I would not have been able to assume that starting position. Not without having the muzzle close to covering my face. 

MD should use stock touching belt OR muzzle on X.  Not both. 

 

If they want to prevent outstretched gaming, they can add something like "standing directly in front of X"

[OPENB]

6 hours ago, SJan said:

MD should use stock touching belt OR muzzle on X.  Not both. 

 

If they want to prevent outstretched gaming, they can add something like "standing directly in front of X"

They are new MDs, but the stages are otherwise great.