PacMan Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) I'm curious as to why some stage designers/MDs feel the need for high round count shotgun stages? Once upon a time, 3-gun matches started out with shotgun stages never more than 25 rds but with tight/difficult shooting stage design. Then the morphing to high round counts began (if I remembered correctly) at 2006 (?) Missouri 3-Gun where we had a 39 rds shotgun stage with lots of steel and some tight shooting windows so that was still fun and challenging. However, the 'carnival' stages started to show up with rotating wheels and flying birds/rabbits, more like a skeet shoot while moseying down the path to the next shooting station. Such stage design requires lots of set up and hard on the ROs, not to mention beginners who don't have enough shell carriers and old guys who could hardly breath while shooting let alone carrying a bucket of lead. Edited July 17, 2017 by PacMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximis228 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Open shotguns can hold more and more as the years go on. There are lots of caddy companies now. Gear tends to drive a lot of changes in 3 gun. At least that's what it seems. Target types are the same way. More carnival type target arrays continue to be invented. How are larger stages harder on RO's The initial set up is a bit more intensive but its still the competitors who are doing the reset. You want to see changes, become a match director and put on your own match. People will spend money on the stuff they like to do. Almost all 3 gun majors sell out right now. I don't see the increased difficultly slowing down anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3gunDQ Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 No... it's absurd. This match is now a shotgun loading contest. The Newbies and the dinosaurs will time out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximis228 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Just now, 3gunDQ said: No... it's absurd. This match is now a shotgun loading contest. The Newbies and the dinosaurs will time out. Once quad loading happened it became all about the shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted July 17, 2017 Author Share Posted July 17, 2017 23 minutes ago, Maximis228 said: ... You want to see changes, become a match director and put on your own match. People will spend money on the stuff they like to do. Almost all 3 gun majors sell out right now. I don't see the increased difficultly slowing down anytime soon. I was just trying to understand the logic behind the "super shotgun" stage designs, no need to tell me to start my own match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximis228 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 1 minute ago, PacMan said: I was just trying to understand the logic behind the "super shotgun" stage designs, no need to tell me to start my own match. Thank you for ignoring the previous portion of the post. I didn't like how my local USPSA match was running. So I became the match director and created a match I personally enjoyed. I'm just happy others agreed with my view and continue to support the match and me as Match Director. If you want to see certain style stages. Make stages and submit them to the match director. The only logic to this is the match director liked the stage design. Ultimately its up to them for what gets put on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerritm Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 It is fun. We normally run a long 30 plus round jungle run shotgun stage at our big local match. Most everybody loves it and look forward to it each month. A few do time out, but still enjoy it and realize that is the part of 3-gun they have to improve. Loading is the biggest part of shotgun stages. I shoot open with a 24 round mag, but with mixed in slug shots, spinners, flippers, and long movements where there is plenty of time to load we all come out pretty even. Glad to keep seeing the super shotgun stages. gerritm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 20 hours ago, PacMan said: I was just trying to understand the logic behind the "super shotgun" stage designs, no need to tell me to start my own match. Ask Denise and J.J.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Many people like them, or the MDs think they do. Also opens up areas of a range to shoot where rifles or pistols would be unsafe. For example the SG stage at Colorado this past weekend. I would rather have a 40 round stage like that where you can load on the move than a 12 round unloaded start shooting from box a type stage. That is a loading contest as the bulk of the stage time would be loading. It also forces people in open to shoot a box gun when a tube gun would normally be competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 24 minutes ago, Dan Sierpina said: Ask Denise and J.J.! Well, shotgun is for moving targets...so we tried those and dang it if people didn't say they loved it. Okay, some people called it the F'ing shotgun stage, but so many look forward to it every year. Set-up SUCKS! Reset SUCKS! Tearing down SUCKS! But shooting the darn things are a hoot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Benelli Chick said: Well, shotgun is for moving targets...so we tried those and dang it if people didn't say they loved it. Okay, some people called it the F'ing shotgun stage, but so many look forward to it every year. Set-up SUCKS! Reset SUCKS! Tearing down SUCKS! But shooting the darn things are a hoot! I call it "Sporting Clays from Hell" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Just now, Dan Sierpina said: I call it "Sporting Clays from Hell" Me too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 21 hours ago, PacMan said: I was just trying to understand the logic behind the "super shotgun" stage designs, no need to tell me to start my own match. Hung, How about this stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1chota Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Dan Sierpina said: Hung, How about this stage? HOLY BATSHIT ROBIN!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscott Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 That looks like a good time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 yeah at some point it's a little ridiculous to have all this shotshell crap hanging off your waist, chest, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscott Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 A local match had a 35 round stage a couple of years ago, but he allowed the shooter to place ammo on the barrels on the stage if desired because he knew not everyone could carry that many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted July 18, 2017 Author Share Posted July 18, 2017 7 hours ago, Dan Sierpina said: Hung, How about this stage? Dan, perhaps it was fun for some . As with anything, we can be "over the top" just to out do the previous match. Personally I think it is ridiculous but hey, not my match so I would have to either put up with it if I want to come and play, or simply stay home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I think that the reason we have these kind of stages is that way too many match directors have "lost their way"..…... Bigger has GOT to be better with no thought on what they want to test with the stage. To often matches say.....let's scatter out a bunch of targets because "round count is King". This is exacerbated by "match sycophants" who post up reviews of matches that say "BEST MATCH EVER"!!!! Anyone who disagree is excoriated by all on the web, so it is a self inflicted "death spiral". The stage it self might blow, but it is way against the common "after action report" so all the M.D. hears is best match EVER, and I loved the shotgun stage!!!! In my opinion there is no place in this sport, which has martial roots, for flying, flipping, spinning, whirlygigging CRAP that has taken place of thoughtful stage design that tests the combat use of a shotgun! It is just one of the reasons I don't even attend a match I was instrumental in creating anymore!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodsk Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I couldn't care less about the "combat use of a shotgun" I'm out there to play a game. My team shot the stage above as the last stage of the match and it was challenging and fun. what you can't tell from the video is the distance of the targets and the size of the targets. They were further away and smaller than shotgun targets normally are (except for the plate racks), and had quite a few people struggling to knock down the smaller stuff at distance. Yes there was a lot of loading, but again that is part of the game, and a part I enjoy. I wish I was shooting the 3gn shotgun match in NC this weekend with the average round count of 30-50 per stage, but unfortunately I can't make that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towely Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) This must be a uspsa thing. Ipsc has got this covered havnt they? At an official match theres a reccomended number of short, medium and long courses for the event to mix it up. Round count can only go as high as 32 and if its not an approved target then it doesnt get used, so no carnival whirlygig stuff. Besides, resetting and reshoots can kill alot of the enthusiasim when youre waiting for your turn. Edited July 20, 2017 by Towely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Towely said: ... Besides, resetting and reshoots can kill alot of the enthusiasim when youre waiting for your turn. One of the "un-intended" consequences of bird traps, wheels and throwers is the reset. Yes, as some have said, reset effort doesn't matter because shooters must do the reset in 99% of the cases, but the reset must be done correctly or activators don't activate, wheels don't turn and birds don't fly => Automatic reshoot! Most recent match we had 3 stages with activators that didn't activate because resets were not done correctly (as in matching the end of the stick to the color painted on the wheel, trap door got clogged with sand, blah blah). What fun in reshooting a 40 rds stage toward the end of the run? Certainly not fun when shooters have to keep resetting the stage 5 times for the same shooter? I'm sure some will say "I'm getting my money's worth" just like going to a "buf-fet" eatery and get your money's worth. Also, I am sure it wasn't fun to be the ROs on those stages to be out there all day and have the stage gets backed up due to stage failures. Edited July 20, 2017 by PacMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 IMHO, the CO match had squads back up on a couple of stages because the had single gun stages followed by 3 gun stages that could not be reset until the whole stage was cleared out. My squad did not have any reshoots because of incorrectly set targets. I understand that it can be rough shooting with a squad that does not understand how to reset a stage, but if they don't know they should ask. The RO should have fixed the sand out of the stomp pad, but he was new and probably didn't fully understand everything that he should do to keep a stage running. There were some problems and the activators cabling could have been better. That is any match though. It seems that nothing is 100%. I have emailed the MD after he asked for a real AAR and he seems responsive to most comments. I would attend this match again, so nothing was that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vespid_Wasp Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 I really enjoy jungle run or big field course shotgun stages. The video above isn't something that would be my first choice to shoot. Stages can be big, and fun, and complex and challenging WITHOUT incorporating finicky props and activators that cause reset woes. I am a big fan of stages that allow for safe reset behind an advancing shooter. Not a fan of clays in general because presentation can vary so widely and because the last big clays stage I shot I was looking DIRECTLY into the blazing mid-afternoon August sun when I shot it. I guess the same can happen with difficult to see rifle targets but a hat, sunglasses and an improvised sunshade for the scope can usually make it doable. If nobody times out on a stage during a match, it won't be a very fun match. It has been a while "knock on wood", but timing out was a big motivator for me to get better. I don't want to play soccer where nobody keeps score and everybody gets a ribbon at the end. Make it a challenge or it will be a bore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 40+ round stage at Vortex trigun in MN was awesome, burnd the hell out of my hand but was super fun. 1 stage at a match would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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