MikeFoley Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Given the IPSC election just over the horizon, what changes would you guys like to see in IPSC with a new President and partially new EC? Please give some honest feedback, not "metric targets", etc, but answers that could be a part of making IPSC better as a global sports organization. Please leave politics out of this per forum guidelines. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darqusoull13 Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Can popper calibration be addressed, preferably by deleting everything except steel must fall to score? Hits in the calibration zone that don't knock them over would be range equipment failure and a re-shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said: Can popper calibration be addressed, preferably by deleting everything except steel must fall to score? Hits in the calibration zone that don't knock them over would be range equipment failure and a re-shoot. While I am well aware of what has been said about this in USPSA, I have no idea where IPSC stands on this issue. In order not to restart that debate in this thread, I'll simply register your request and file it away until appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Mike, I'd like to see a more appropriate voting system for IPSC elections. Instead of 1 vote per region, I think it would be better to have the entire membership able to express their approval or disapproval of the leadership instead of just one person from each region. Having just one person to cast the vote can easily be manipulated to gain the desired results. I hope I stated this correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 As a USPSA member, I have little interaction with IPSC. I like the idea that I could go shoot a match in a foreign country, but I'm not likely to do so anytime soon. Even if USPSA was no longer associated with IPSC it wouldn't affect me all that much, so I don't see how a different IPSC president could help me and the matches I attend. Does IPSC do more to support the smaller regions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent1k1 Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 It is concerning that Airsoft has been sanctioned by IPSC. Seems to me that is one step away from "see! we don't need real guns to play this game: It's not really about the targets, but it seems it started with the no head targets and Steel with heads looks like people and has progressed to....CO2 is a great way to shoot the sport. I DO understand that in many countries it is extremely expensive to get real bullets so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Proportionate voting would be a good start, either based on membership numbers, or even better based on mission count. Either way it would better represent the shooters not just the regions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvc4you Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Proportional representation.Rules convergence as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieselvrr Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Is IPSC just USPSA overseas? Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 20 hours ago, MikeFoley said: Given the IPSC election just over the horizon, what changes would you guys like to see in IPSC with a new President and partially new EC? I'd like to see handgun rules similar to USPSA where a firearm legal in USPSA is also legal in IPSC. PF to be the same in both organizations as well. Bump Open by 5PF and reduce Standard by 5PF to match USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, tanks said: I'd like to see handgun rules similar to USPSA where a firearm legal in USPSA is also legal in IPSC. PF to be the same in both organizations as well. Bump Open by 5PF and reduce Standard by 5PF to match USPSA. FYI, the current Power Factors in IPSC were changed in 1999 at the General Assembly, the minutes are here This is the relevant part and you can see what region proposed the current IPSC PF's Edited July 14, 2017 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Yes, but Major is 165 here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 1 minute ago, tanks said: Yes, but Major is 165 here. I am aware of that; The point I was making is that USPSA proposed changing the PF to 160 for Open, but USPSA did not adopt its own proposal in USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 How about USPSA and IPSC honor each others membership? Its retarded that a USPSA member has to sign up for and pay for an IPSC membership to attend only a few IPSC events. The same goes for the IPSC shooters who want to come to the US and participate in USPSA matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said: How about USPSA and IPSC honor each others membership? Its retarded that a USPSA member has to sign up for and pay for an IPSC membership to attend only a few IPSC events. The same goes for the IPSC shooters who want to come to the US and participate in USPSA matches. Cha-Lee Where do you get this? 1 - There is no such thing as individual membership in IPSC ... Simply does not exist. Regions (i.e., countries) are members of IPSC, not individuals. One joins their regional organization just like we join USPSA. In all my travels about the world (20+ years) I have NEVER been required to join another region's organization. I have been required to provide proof I an a current member of USPSA in order to be allowed to participate in another region, but that's only reasonable. 2 - I have worked scores of major matches in the US, and hundreds upon hundreds of local matches. Never once have I encountered a match whereby a foreign competitor was required to join USPSA to participate. Again, they must provide proof of membership in their home region, and again, that is only reasonable. 3 - The ONLY thing where I see that foreign shooters must acquire USPSA membership for is IF they want to establish and maintain a USPSA classification using our classification system. That's an added benefit (for which they should pay) but is NOT a barrier to competing in a match. I simply don't know where you're coming from ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 17 hours ago, Trent1k1 said: It is concerning that Airsoft has been sanctioned by IPSC. Seems to me that is one step away from "see! we don't need real guns to play this game: It's not really about the targets, but it seems it started with the no head targets and Steel with heads looks like people and has progressed to....CO2 is a great way to shoot the sport. I DO understand that in many countries it is extremely expensive to get real bullets so Trent It has little (if anything) to do with the cost of ammo. There are a number of countries in the world that absolutely prohibit private ownership and use of handguns as you and I know them. Several of them will permit airsoft pistols ... Hence, IPSC developed Airsoft rules so they could have some way of enjoying the sport, despite the restrictions imposed on them by accident of the country which they were born in. This is actually a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 23 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said: Can popper calibration be addressed, preferably by deleting everything except steel must fall to score? Hits in the calibration zone that don't knock them over would be range equipment failure and a re-shoot. This has been discussed ad nauseum both in USPSA and IPSC circles. This has been debunked so many times I won't bother to repeat the reasons here. (Do a search for the discussions and you will see what I mean.) What you suggest will never be accepted (IMHO) either within USPSA or IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 23 hours ago, GrumpyOne said: Mike, I'd like to see a more appropriate voting system for IPSC elections. Instead of 1 vote per region, I think it would be better to have the entire membership able to express their approval or disapproval of the leadership instead of just one person from each region. Having just one person to cast the vote can easily be manipulated to gain the desired results. I hope I stated this correctly. Hello again, Grumpy! This too has been discussed, mostly on the Global Village. Understand that first, that would require significant changes to the IPSC Constitution ... Something I really don't see the rest of the world willing to agree to. Second, even of they did, there's the issue of reliability of the data provided by various regions. Are you going to volunteer to do the annual audit of each and every region to ensure no one is inflating their reported membership numbers (i.e., cheating) in order to acquire a bigger voice at the table? I'm a trained auditor and I would certainly not want to try to take that one on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 3 hours ago, tanks said: I'd like to see handgun rules similar to USPSA where a firearm legal in USPSA is also legal in IPSC. PF to be the same in both organizations as well. Bump Open by 5PF and reduce Standard by 5PF to match USPSA. Interesting. However, the fact is the US is the ONLY region within IPSC who has its own definitions of Divisions. Everyone else on the face of the planet uses the IPSC designations and rules. (There are some minor variances allowed in some countries due to firearms laws and restrictions in those countries ... much like there are some variances here in the US due to various state laws ...) So, what you propose is to have the rest of the world yield to US? Yeah, I'm USA born and raised, but that's pretty much the tail wagging the dog, don't you think? (I do agree on the PF issue, however. I think it was silly for IPSC in '99 to have adopted 2 different factors depending on division.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Mike Generally speaking, I pose 3 broad questions: 1 - What do we (USPSA) want and expect from the relationship? You and I have had this conversation before and, if I may paraphrase you, "They can have our membership when they can pry it from our cold dead hands." I don't think those were your exact words, but that was clearly your sentiment. I agree. There is a mutually beneficial, symbiotic relationship between USPSA and IPSC. We are each better for knowing the other. IPSC needs to continue to be a VERY broad tent under which folks from all over the planet can enjoy some form of our sport. They need to defend that - We need to support them in that effort. 2 - What does IPSC want from US? Two things come to mind: They don't want US competing with their rule set in places outside our borders. I think this has reached a stasis, but it is only just beneath the surface and could easily rise again. Second - I know they would very, very, very much like to see the US hold more than just one IPSC L3 match per year. Yeah, technically it fulfils our obligation under the IPSC Constitution, but you have to admit it's little more than lip service. 3 - The salient question we face now is which of the candidates for IPSC President can best accomplish the above and not threaten US with expulsion from IPSC? Some of this may lay deeper than merely the candidate. I suggest you consider each candidate's platform and the people he will have on his Executive Committee afterwards. This will have more significant impact on our continued affiliation with IPSC than anything else I can envision. Respects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 As a matter of curiosity, what would the expulsion of the USA from IPSC cause in the USA ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 2 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said: Hello again, Grumpy! This too has been discussed, mostly on the Global Village. Understand that first, that would require significant changes to the IPSC Constitution ... Something I really don't see the rest of the world willing to agree to. Second, even of they did, there's the issue of reliability of the data provided by various regions. Are you going to volunteer to do the annual audit of each and every region to ensure no one is inflating their reported membership numbers (i.e., cheating) in order to acquire a bigger voice at the table? I'm a trained auditor and I would certainly not want to try to take that one on! Mike asked for what we would like to see changed, not for how difficult or labor intensive it would be. I also don't recall Mr. Foley asking you to explain why all of the suggestions that the forum members are making are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 4 minutes ago, Steve RA said: As a matter of curiosity, what would the expulsion of the USA from IPSC cause in the USA ??? To start with ... Our by-laws and our IRS tax status include sending members to compete in international competition. Changing that could have consequences. (Not saying it would, just it could.) Absent USPSA being the organization hosting IPSC in the US I suspect another organization would eventually step up to fill the void. Do we want this, or would we rather own it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said: Do we want this, or would we rather own it? How many people would want to shoot IPSC here instead of USPSA ??? I'd think the number of people who have shot an IPSC match would be a very low percentage of USPSA membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 11 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said: Mike asked for what we would like to see changed, not for how difficult or labor intensive it would be. Understood, oh Grumpy One! However, this has been an ongoing issue for decades. Truth be told, it was apparently the US who wanted a cap of 2000 members for dues purposes. And by the way ... We've got ~ 28,000 members. The Russians have something like 36,000! Right now our vote is equal to theirs. Would you prefer theirs to be ~ 150% of ours, relatively speaking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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