Recent DNROI Letter (Front Line)

[AWLAZS]

George cited what rule he was using to hand out penalties at the Mid Atlantic. I can't remember what he said.

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

You will probably never be able to positively tell.

 

I've been in this sport for 39 years, many of them as RO-CRO-RM and for a while RMI and Area 5 Director for 9 years. Now that by its self means little. However, it provides a historical knowledge base to draw upon.

 

I cannot remember a penalty of any sort being applied for prematurely pasting a target until this thread.

 

I think there is a reason for that.

And just like a DQ. If I can't tell with absolute certainty an infraction occurred I can't issue a DQ. How in the world could we get away with a procedural for taping too early unless we are certain it was intentional? Besides, at that point , in my opinion we are beyond a procedural and well into 10.6 territory.

[barry]

Rule  quoted was 8.7.4 . I got one. I contacted nroi for clarification. This was an improper interpretation of the rule . Prematurely patched targets are covered by 9.1.3 . What if the guilty party has already shot the stage ? What if he has finished the match. Once a score sheet is signed by both competitor and R.O it cant be changed See 9.7.4

[Gary Stevens]

23 minutes ago, barry said:

Rule  quoted was 8.7.4 . I got one. I contacted nroi for clarification. This was an improper interpretation of the rule . Prematurely patched targets are covered by 9.1.3 . What if the guilty party has already shot the stage ? What if he has finished the match. Once a score sheet is signed by both competitor and R.O it cant be changed See 9.7.4

 

I didn't see anything in 9.1.3 about assigning procedural penalties to anyone. Just saying.

[OPENB]

I have a feeling we won't ever see the patching penalty again. Because of all the reasons outlined here. And it's not supported by a sane interpretation of the rule book without stretching to the elastic limit. I'm sorry people had to shoot a major under such an asinine "rule." I bet DNROI's email blew up after that match. 

[davidb72]

5 hours ago, mosher said:

 

They withheld per diem?  Yikes.  That's a good way to discourage people from ROing!

There was no per diem - this was a level 2 sectional. We got our hotel room paid for, lunches, and our match fee covered.

[davidb72]

1 hour ago, OPENB said:

I have a feeling we won't ever see the patching penalty again. Because of all the reasons outlined here. And it's not supported by a sane interpretation of the rule book without stretching to the elastic limit. I'm sorry people had to shoot a major under such an asinine "rule." I bet DNROI's email blew up after that match. 

I'm sorry they did too.

[mosher]

13 hours ago, davidb72 said:

There was no per diem - this was a level 2 sectional. We got our hotel room paid for, lunches, and our match fee covered.

 

Did they actually take that away from ROs that made mistakes?

[Steve RA]

No, it's a joke.  

[George Jones]

This match is one of the best around.  The MDs and the rest of the staff are the reason.

 

As the RM, any fault on the issues being discussed here start and end with me.  I made the decision to avoid two areas of concern: 
- Safety issues during the COF due to unnecessary people in the shooting area, and

- Early pasting which results in reshoots.

 

For the first, on any stage with movement, no one would be allowed in the shooting area during the COF.  This was mentioned during the shooter briefing and also mentioned in the WSB for all affected stages.  As far as I know, for the whole match, only one person did this.

 

For the second issue, out of over 330 shooters, there were only three penalties applied for early pasting.  The CROs were instructed to call me for any violation so I could rule.  Unfortunately, this was not done on one occasion and I was not called.  My intent was to decide based upon each circumstance.  In retrospect and after discussion with Troy and the rest of the RMIs, it was decided that I enforced the rule (8.7.4) too strictly.  As a result, I personally apologized to the only two individuals I knew had been affected.

 

Good intentions but poor execution on my part.  Learning never stops in this game.  Don't blame the match which I would put up against any major.

[alma]

It was a great match. Thank you again for your hard work. I get the intent and it certainly served the purpose. 

[Schutzenmeister]

George

 

You are a true gentleman.  It takes a strong man to take a risk, and if that turns out not to go quite as well as hoped, stand up and take ownership of it.  I'd work for you (again) at any match, anywhere.

[IL-SIG]

7 hours ago, George Jones said:

This match is one of the best around.  The MDs and the rest of the staff are the reason.

 

As the RM, any fault on the issues being discussed here start and end with me.  I made the decision to avoid two areas of concern: 
- Safety issues during the COF due to unnecessary people in the shooting area, and

- Early pasting which results in reshoots.

 

For the first, on any stage with movement, no one would be allowed in the shooting area during the COF.  This was mentioned during the shooter briefing and also mentioned in the WSB for all affected stages.  As far as I know, for the whole match, only one person did this.

 

For the second issue, out of over 330 shooters, there were only three penalties applied for early pasting.  The CROs were instructed to call me for any violation so I could rule.  Unfortunately, this was not done on one occasion and I was not called.  My intent was to decide based upon each circumstance.  In retrospect and after discussion with Troy and the rest of the RMIs, it was decided that I enforced the rule (8.7.4) too strictly.  As a result, I personally apologized to the only two individuals I knew had been affected.

 

Good intentions but poor execution on my part.  Learning never stops in this game.  Don't blame the match which I would put up against any major.

 

Nicely stated.  I applaud you standing up and defending your position, as well as defending your CROs/ROs.  

[Patrick Scott]

George,

 First of all thank you for RM'ing the match, second thank you for your statement on this situation.

 

(Not directed to George, just in general):
I'm guessing we are going to see this practice go away or at least "cleaned up" a bit, one fault I see with it is when a non-competitor prematurely patches a target. I know lots of us bring our kids, spouses, family to matches and wrangle them into pasting , on my squad at the Mid-ATL and young girl, not competing pre pasted a target for a competitor she did not even know. Pretty obvious that there was no ill intention there. How could that be handled if we continued this practice? 

[wgj3]

46 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

George,

 First of all thank you for RM'ing the match, second thank you for your statement on this situation.

 

(Not directed to George, just in general):
I'm guessing we are going to see this practice go away or at least "cleaned up" a bit, one fault I see with it is when a non-competitor prematurely patches a target. I know lots of us bring our kids, spouses, family to matches and wrangle them into pasting , on my squad at the Mid-ATL and young girl, not competing pre pasted a target for a competitor she did not even know. Pretty obvious that there was no ill intention there. How could that be handled if we continued this practice? 

Whoever brought her gets the penalty!

[barry]

I agree with George that this is always a fantastic match. Just like all matches Joe runs . Monthly matches here are the best on the east coast if not country wide.

George did contact me to apologize and as I told him none was necessary. George has always had my utmost respect. I understand the work that goes into running a monthly match never mind a major having been a match director for 28 years and counting. 

 

I hope I wasn't wrong to inquire with nroi  for clarification of this ruling.

Barry Ruane

TY16248

[darkvibe]

On 7/8/2017 at 9:22 PM, davidb72 said:

I gave out one procedural at the Mid-Atlantic Sectional for pre-pasting. That was the ONLY instance of pre-pasting on my stage for the entire weekend.

It sounds like no on liked it but it sure was effective.

 

On my squad people wasted more time asking if a particular target was scored before pasting the holes than we would have wasted with a couple of reshoots.  Not very effective. It also leaves a bad taste in people's mouths about the match when penalties are threatened for trying to keep things moving along with no ill intent.  

[davidb72]

14 hours ago, darkvibe said:

 

On my squad people wasted more time asking if a particular target was scored before pasting the holes than we would have wasted with a couple of reshoots.  Not very effective. It also leaves a bad taste in people's mouths about the match when penalties are threatened for trying to keep things moving along with no ill intent.  

It's hard to pay attention to which targets have been scored and which haven't.

I get that.

[Gooldylocks]

On 7/11/2017 at 11:42 AM, Otisray said:

 

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6.

First off, the course of fire ends at "Range is clear," so that is completely and totally inapplicable. 

 

Secondly, if I were at a match with that as a rule, I would absolutely not paste a single thing the whole day until the scoresheet was signed. Stand up steel, sure, but I'm not going anywhere near a target that could even have the possibility of hurting my score. And I generally am one that pastes a lot, so as far as I am concerned that rule would only work to slow down the match. 

[wgj3]

1 hour ago, Gooldylocks said:

First off, the course of fire ends at "Range is clear," so that is completely and totally inapplicable. 

 

Secondly, if I were at a match with that as a rule, I would absolutely not paste a single thing the whole day until the scoresheet was signed. Stand up steel, sure, but I'm not going anywhere near a target that could even have the possibility of hurting my score. And I generally am one that pastes a lot, so as far as I am concerned that rule would only work to slow down the match. 

Exactly what he said!

[d_striker]

On 7/10/2017 at 9:00 AM, Patrick Scott said:

That official claimed to be a CRO(i haven't verified).. I witnessed the same event and to top it off the CRO was able to tell the shooters hits on a well used target by looking at the rain bag that was placed on it after the premature patching.. Yeah OK...  

I also found it aggravating that after the shooters meeting speech about no one allowed in the COF that later that day we were damn near getting yelled at to get out there and paste while the score keeper was scoring as the stage was being shot.  Yes, I get it, bad weather was coming and going all day and things were trying to be hurried up, but if you lay down a rule that tells me to keep my ass out of the COF, dont yell at me for keeping my ass out of the COF. 
 

 

What match was this.  I want to make sure I never go near it or any matches run by this staff.

[Fishstyx]

2 hours ago, d_striker said:

 

What match was this.  I want to make sure I never go near it or any matches run by this staff.

Great, one less reshoot.

[Thomas H]

13 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

Secondly, if I were at a match with that as a rule, I would absolutely not paste a single thing the whole day until the scoresheet was signed. Stand up steel, sure, but I'm not going anywhere near a target that could even have the possibility of hurting my score. And I generally am one that pastes a lot, so as far as I am concerned that rule would only work to slow down the match. 

 

I agree...and as for the part I put in bold--maybe not even that.  I've been loudly verbally instructed (read:  yelled at) not to touch the steel until the scoring RO has stated "scoring complete" at a match before.  (Hm,  come to think about it, at a couple of matches, all of which were level II or III.)  Wonder if sometime they might try to give me a procedural for doing what is common pretty much everywhere else?

 

It seems clear thus far that 1) the rule itself does NOT allow unilateral issuance of a procedural penalty, and 2) that the part of the rule where the RM is supposed to come to make sure the right call was given hasn't been followed in cases of said unilateral issuance of a procedural penalty.

 

I'm glad for the first, and annoyed by the second.

 

People make mistakes, so you are going to have premature pasting once in awhile.  But as people have said, if the ROs make it clear what the scoring procedure (and order) is going to be, and are consistent with it, you just aren't going to have too many of those problems. 

[Sarge]

Cheating is obvious when it happens in most cases. And as I said, a procedural doesn't cut it when a deliberate early pasting happens.

  I was thrust into ROING IPSC Nationals in 09 as a pretty green RO. The Italians took turns premature pasting each other's targets on bad runs. I noticed it and turned it over to the RM for him to deal with. Not sure what he did about it but I doubt much came of it. I don't think USPSA is hard core enough on cheaters unless a major scandal crops up.

[Ted Murphy]

So if each person o a squad threw down $5.00-$10.00 you could have arbed this process the minute someone in your squad got the PE. Why no takers?