Recent DNROI Letter (Front Line)

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, 9x45 said:

Try 30 seconds added when we have, on a regular basis, 110 to 140, Level 1 matches.

Agreed. 30 seconds is an eternity in the grand scheme of things when running a stage. I work hard to cut 30 seconds where I can.

[motosapiens]

On 7/8/2017 at 7:41 PM, davidb72 said:

I hope so - it wasn't done that way to hurt anyone's feelings, just to try and run an efficient match.

 

seems to me it's likely to have the *opposite* effect. People are going to shy away from pasting until they are *certain* everything is done, so it probably takes longer.

 

In my experience, pre-pasting is not hard to control if you use (and announce to the squad) a sensible, and efficient and consistent scoring procedure. It still happens once in a while, but I'd rather that than have everyone drag ass because they're scared of a procedural. I don't think I had any pre-pasting at A1 this year. Maybe 1 the previous year.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, mikeinctown said:

There is PLENTY of time in between the actual scoring and when the next shooter gets the make ready command. Y

 

on stages I run, that is generally not true. I'm often giving the make ready command while the previous shooter is approving his score, and the scorekeeper then announces the next 3 shooters while the competitor is making ready.

[Sarge]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

on stages I run, that is generally not true. I'm often giving the make ready command while the previous shooter is approving his score, and the scorekeeper then announces the next 3 shooters while the competitor is making ready.

Same here. We were turning shooters in two minutes or less on our stage this weekend at Ryan Rocks in MI.

[Fishstyx]

I think the results speak for themselves. I worked a Level III a few months ago and prepasting was both frequent and fishy. Despite extensive warnings, physical efforts by staff to protect targets and in one case literally yelling at a shooter about to pre-paste to STOP all to no avail. There were at least 10 prepaste reshoots on a deep, narrow stage where it was very simple to follow the ROs who always scored front to back. On the other hand, I worked the Mid-Atlantic Sectional and my stage had zero prepasting incidents, and stage reset was still efficient. My understanding is that there were only a handful of prepasting penalties for the entire match. There's little doubt in my mind that the match ran more efficiently.

 

We all hate subjective application of rules and issuing penalties for prepasting only when the RO is convinced it was intentional scoring interference is the height of subjectivity. It's not hard to past responsibly and we already get PEs for other unintentional and minor infractions that give no competitive advantage so I don't see this any differently.

[Gary Stevens]

I don't think I have seen a rule quoted that allowed for the procedural penalty. Can anyone quote one? I mean an actual rule, not just because I say so.

[davidb72]

7 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

I don't think I have seen a rule quoted that allowed for the procedural penalty. Can anyone quote one? I mean an actual rule, not just because I say so.

 

On 7/8/2017 at 11:11 PM, teros135 said:

 

You could also consider 8.7.4,  interference with the scoring process.  Penalty is a procedural or consideration of 10.6, depending on circumstances.  

 

 

 

[Fishstyx]

17 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

I don't think I have seen a rule quoted that allowed for the procedural penalty. Can anyone quote one? I mean an actual rule, not just because I say so.

9.1.1 Approaching Targets – While scoring is in progress, competitors or their delegate must not approach any target closer than (3 feet) without the authorization of the Range Officer. Violation may, at the discretion of the Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty.

 

Since prepasting requires getting closer than 3', this seems to fit.

[jester121]

1 minute ago, Fishstyx said:

9.1.1 Approaching Targets – While scoring is in progress, competitors or their delegate must not approach any target closer than (3 feet) without the authorization of the Range Officer. Violation may, at the discretion of the Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty.

 

Since prepasting requires getting closer than 3', this seems to fit.

 

I'm cool with that -- on the condition that it is applied with 100% consistency across the entire match, to include any competitor standing behind or next to a target waiting to paste, if he gets within that 3' radius and doesn't have explicit RO permission. Same goes for downed steel and movers.

 

"When USPSA gets silly..."

[alma]

That 8.7.4 was the correct rule. It isn't a stretch to apply it to prepasting. More than anything else I asked about it since it was a newer concept to me that penelties would be consistently handed out for that. I think it could make sense as long as it's understood and there is some rational involved. 

 

Seperate topic but we really should convert over to a process where like three rotating shooters go out to tape and reset versus every member of the squad always having to go down range each time to fight to tape a single target. 

[alma]

25 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

I don't think I have seen a rule quoted that allowed for the procedural penalty. Can anyone quote one? I mean an actual rule, not just because I say so.

 

8.7.4 Altering stage props, targets or any other part of a COF without theapproval of a Range Officer, or setting, resetting or activating moving targets on a COF identified as “Closed” or “Off Limits” will be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6. Any person interfering with the scoring or resetting of a course of fire in any way may be assessed a procedural penalty or be subject to the provisions of 10.6. The Range Master shall be called in all cases, and will make the decision as to what 
penalty to assess.

[Gary Stevens]

Guys you are grasping at straws, imo. Safest bet is to not paste at all. Is that what the MD and RM really want?

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, alma said:

Seperate topic but we really should convert over to a process where like three rotating shooters go out to tape and reset versus every member of the squad always having to go down range each time to fight to tape a single target. 

 

I could not agree more. I almost choked when someone earlier talked about going to stand by a single target and wait there for the scoring RO.

 

I think aside from poor RO planning, the second biggest cause of pre-pasting is people bs-ing with their friends and having no idea what is going on with the scoring. Usually those people are either standing by a single target waiting, or they are not pasting at all. Not sure which is worse.

[mikeinctown]

14 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

I could not agree more. I almost choked when someone earlier talked about going to stand by a single target and wait there for the scoring RO.

 

I think aside from poor RO planning, the second biggest cause of pre-pasting is people bs-ing with their friends and having no idea what is going on with the scoring. Usually those people are either standing by a single target waiting, or they are not pasting at all. Not sure which is worse.

 

Thats what happens when you have 6-8 people ready to paste and waiting for the scoring person to come by. The very first ones done usually have a couple people pasting and then the rest of the group goes and stands near a group of targets and waits. As soon as the score is called, boom, they get pasted and the person leaves the area. By the time the scoring was complete there might have been one target still in process of being pasted. It's really a non issue and I said 30 seconds just because it is so easy and fast that if you only had one or two people doing it after they were all scored, it would only take that long. It seems silly that we would almost be fighting over targets but to me that is far better than two people or even one person trying to get everything and then accidentally forgetting a target.

 

The one thing I don't like is for others besides the scoring person to call out the scores on targets they are standing near. I'd rather have a single person verify every target. I generally point at the holes and make note if there are more than two. The person scoring can yell out the scores.

 

The idea of a rotating squad of a couple would be fine but you always have people reloading mags or running to the can, etc. Unless it is raining, then let a couple people go get wet while everyone else stays dry.

[mosher]

If the RO makes a mistake, does he get a procedural?

[Fishstyx]

29 minutes ago, mosher said:

If the RO makes a mistake, does he get a procedural?

No, but they do get their pay docked.

[teros135]

18 minutes ago, Fishstyx said:

No, but they do get their pay docked.

 

ROFL! 

[davidb72]

30 minutes ago, Fishstyx said:

No, but they do get their pay docked.

Only 3 posts and you come up with this.

Nice work.

 

[Otisray]

20 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

I don't think I have seen a rule quoted that allowed for the procedural penalty. Can anyone quote one? I mean an actual rule, not just because I say so.

 

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Otisray

[Gary Stevens]

There is a difference between intentional acts and a mental error. I've been in on rule making for USPSA and I believe if they wanted a penalty for the action we are discussing they would have clearly and definitely said so.  

 

You should be be able to look the shooter in the eye tell them what they did without scanning the rule book and applying interpretations to asses a penalty.

[davidb72]

4 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

There is a difference between intentional acts and a mental error.

How can I tell if the target was pasted early intentionally or not?

[Gary Stevens]

You will probably never be able to positively tell.

 

I've been in this sport for 39 years, many of them as RO-CRO-RM and for a while RMI and Area 5 Director for 9 years. Now that by its self means little. However, it provides a historical knowledge base to draw upon.

 

I cannot remember a penalty of any sort being applied for prematurely pasting a target until this thread.

 

I think there is a reason for that.

[frgood]

I've noticed much debate concerning time impact on larger matches. I might suggest that this is not a rule issue but one of safety. If the number of attendees start to make an unsafe environment, then perhaps changing the safety rules is Not the best approach. Perhaps seeking relief elsewhere would be better.

 

If this sport were to grow. I do not think we should shortcut the rules. We should enforce them more so.  However, limits on participants, running more matches (depending on region, and other solutions may help keep us engaged and safe.

For example. at one of my clubs USPSA matches, last summer just started growing rapidly. PracticScore tablets had to be implemented just to eliminate the excessive paperwork. After a month Limits on attendees had to be put in place. In addition, opening up registration two days prior helped a little. We just don't have anymore slots for additional matches on the range. The cost has not gone up. But Central Florida is lucky as there are quite a few matches in the area.

 

However, if membership were to double, what would be our response?  Shortcut the rules for expediency? And, where does greed come into play in all of this? What if a match of 110 were cut down to 75?

 

[mosher]

3 hours ago, Fishstyx said:

No, but they do get their pay docked.

 

They withheld per diem?  Yikes.  That's a good way to discourage people from ROing!

[GrumpyOne]

2 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

You will probably never be able to positively tell.

 

I've been in this sport for 39 years, many of them as RO-CRO-RM and for a while RMI and Area 5 Director for 9 years. Now that by its self means little. However, it provides a historical knowledge base to draw upon.

 

I cannot remember a penalty of any sort being applied for prematurely pasting a target until this thread.

 

I think there is a reason for that.

This ^^^

 

Now, for the $64,000 dollar question. If they are going to asses a penalty for taping a target prematurely,  how will they asses that penalty when a non-participant in the match is taping? You can't asses a penalty to someone not shooting...

 

Does this mean that only participants in the match that are shooting that day can tape targets?